59 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

DerMaulwurf, on 27 April 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

How many people ever participate in high level comp play? I would argue that it is a small minority and it shouldn't be the standard to which everything is held.

Not playing in comp should be even less of a reason for you to consider a STD engine, not more.

[Deathlike]

The point of comp play is to actually see "what are they doing that I'm not doing" and compare notes.

It is very possible to not be able to do what they do... which happens all the time.

However, most matches break down closer to what we normally see in the pub queues... except with a definitive purpose instead of "random acts of mechin' mayhem".

Builds are scrutinized a bit more too, which means your "fun SHS/LRM build" is usually not even a consideration.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 April 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[sycocys]

The ONLY 4 reasons to run STD engines.

1. Your mech has giagantic side torsos.
2. Your laser boat needs 2 DHS more than it needs speed and the additional bonuses from a larger engine, which is almost never.
3. ALL of your weapons are mounted on one side of your mech, giving you half a mech to freely lose.
4. Most of your armament is in your side torsos taking up all your st slots.

Don't hit at least 1 or 2 of those, put in an XL engine.

[Kubernetes]

I run XLs in all my Marauders. Spread that damage and you'll do fine.

[Silra]

mogs01gt, on 27 April 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

This isnt a preference or opinion, its a answer to a question with a right or wrong answer. You run XLs on most IS mechs other than a specific few for specific reasons. The opinion is if you do not believe the answer but it still makes your opinion wrong.


The only std engine I run is on my YLW specifically because it has 3 hardpoints.

Thank you for your opinion. You also run STD engines, noted.

Revis Volek, on 27 April 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

Worst advice ever.....

Please dont listen to this person.

Thank you for your opinion. Mine is different, you're welcome to have yours. I am not going to insult yours however.

sycocys, on 27 April 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

The ONLY 4 reasons to run STD engines.

1. Your mech has giagantic side torsos.
2. Your laser boat needs 2 DHS more than it needs speed and the additional bonuses from a larger engine, which is almost never.
3. ALL of your weapons are mounted on one side of your mech, giving you half a mech to freely lose.
4. Most of your armament is in your side torsos taking up all your st slots.

Don't hit at least 1 or 2 of those, put in an XL engine.

And you can add to that list other things too, in no particular order:

a) Do not have the c-bills to buy an XL engine yet but want to try out the new mech you just got.
b.0) Newer player
b.1) Does not yet understand well how to spread the damage, thus STD engine may increase his survival rate in games.
b.2) Slower top speed means he's likely going to stick with his team instead of running off on his own simply because he gets drugged on the speed.
c) CW/FW play may call for it depending on your unit's preferences.
d) Personal preference.

In the end, everyone has their preference and their own opinion on the subject. STD engines are very 'viable' depending on what you consider the high-standard for viability.

Edited by Silra, 27 April 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

XL on Enforcer is necessary.

Without it, you're sacrificing speed or firepower or both, both of which will only get you killed.

I look at it this way, if you don't have CT or head weapon hardpoints to fight back with or crazy Structure quirks, then XL all the way. Its better to hit back hard with the speed to get around, than it is to be slow and underpowered.

[Thunder Chassis]

what enforcer variant are you guys running ac/20's on as none have enough slots for one?
never mind just saw the 4p

Edited by Thunder Chassis, 27 April 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[TercieI]

Thunder Chassis, on 27 April 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

what enforcer variant are you guys running ac/20's on as none have enough slots for one?

The 4P does (no lower arm actuator). It's basically made for an AC/20.

[Cyborne Elemental]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a9d40d589647749

XL AC20 + 4 medlas, I loved this thing when I leveled it for my last enforcer.

[DerMaulwurf]

TercieI, on 27 April 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

You're probably right, but I'm not content with "works against bad players or bad builds." Viability should include anything you might face. For me, that includes fighting the best players and teams in the game while having to carry lesser players, so I'm looking for as-good-as-can-be. Maybe it's the play-to-win approach bleeding through, but when one starts discussing viability, I don't see any other standard that you can really say makes sense, since they all boil down to "good, except..." where I'm looking for "good regardless."

Our differences boil down to one easy point: You are talking about viability in a competitive scenario, I'm talking about viability in a common scenario.

I get the criticism of my point, since pretty much anything is at least somewhat viable in the YOLO queue, so it's a very loose standard at best. However I would argue that it is the kind of situation that most players actually care about. I'm just choosing general applicability over rigorousness.

I will not encounter the best teams in the game. Period. And neither will the vast majority of MWO players.

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Not playing in comp should be even less of a reason for you to consider a STD engine, not more.

It's probably not clear from my post, but XL engines are my default choice. I do frequently experiment with builds and that includes STD builds. Most of the time I conclude that my performance after losing a ST is notworth the weight/loss of speed. There are exceptions though.

[TexAce]

The "oh ****" look on the Stormcrows face lately in a CW was priceless when it realized that blowing off the side torso I was blocking with didn't help anything and my AC20 was still in tact.

It's ok to sometimes go STD

[Silra]

TexAce, on 28 April 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

The "oh ****" look on the Stormcrows face lately in a CW was priceless when it realized that blowing off the side torso I was blocking with didn't help anything and my AC20 was still in tact.

STD engines are hilarious when you catch off guard the people who are so used to everything blowing up when you shoot out the side torso.

TexAce, on 28 April 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

It's ok to sometimes go STD

Remember people: STDs are bad!

STD engines on your mechs on the other hand can be good from time to time...

My deepest apologies, but I just could not resist.

[Widowmaker1981]

Silra, on 28 April 2016 - 02:03 AM, said:

STD engines are hilarious when you catch off guard the people who are so used to everything blowing up when you shoot out the side torso.

Tbh, the majority of the time when that happens im happy, it just means i get to farm a bunch more damage off the now weak and puny mech that can't really fight back because it only has half of what was a mediocre payload in the first place.

[Silra]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 April 2016 - 02:13 AM, said:

puny mech that can't really fight back because it only has half of what was a mediocre payload in the first place.

And then it turns around and blows your mech up because it can still fight.

Does that happen all the time? No but it does happen.

Just like getting blown up because someone clips the side torso of a mech which runs XL engine, in which case all that payload is gone to begin with.

Creating all sorts of scenarios and reasons to run one engine over another on forums is part of the enjoyment for a discussion. I have blown up enough mechs today who all ran some kind of 'flavor of the moment' build with almost no rear armor, XL engine and the flavor guns of choice... using my STD engine mechs which still keep on contributing after I tank enough damage to lose a side torso.

Quick play matches? Yes. Not everyone plays comp, not everyone cares to try and imitate what the comp people do. After all most people who copy what the comp people do, do not have the necessary personal piloting skills to truly take advantage of those builds and setups.

In the end, most of the vocal people here prefer XL engines, that is their choice and opinion on the matter.... I just happen to prefer STD engines is all.

[Widowmaker1981]

Silra, on 28 April 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

In the end, most of the vocal people here prefer XL engines, that is their choice and opinion on the matter.... I just happen to prefer STD engines is all.

Thing is, thats your choice (obviously), but its objectively bad advice to tell someone to only run STDs in IS mechs, which is what everyone responded to.

Objectively speaking, XLs are better than STDs, that is a fact. There are of course many exceptions (STKs, AS7s, MADs, various mechs that need 10+ ST slots for large ballistics, etc), but as a general rule, and especially for mediums/lights XLs are simply better.

STDs in many cases do not even improve survivability - take the BNC-3M as an example - you can run it with a large (375-400) XL, or a smaller STD engine (325-350). Ive tried both extensively (i have over 1500 QP drops in the chassis, and its in 90% of my IS FP dropdecks) and i reliably live LONGER in the XL version, because i can twist better to take dmg on arms and STs, with the STD engine i just get CT cored faster because im less agile and slower.

[Silra]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 April 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

Thing is, thats your choice (obviously), but its objectively bad advice to tell someone to only run STDs in IS mechs, which is what everyone responded to.

And I edited the post because people didn't catch up on it being a jab towards all the XL enthusiasts, apparently I was not clear enough even with the whole 'clanners & XLs' thing in that post.

So yes, use STD engines in your IS mechs and be proud of being IS instead of a Clanner who needs XLs!

Widowmaker1981, on 28 April 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

STDs in many cases do not even improve survivability - take the BNC-3M as an example - you can run it with a large (375-400) XL, or a smaller STD engine (325-350). Ive tried both extensively (i have over 1500 QP drops in the chassis, and its in 90% of my IS FP dropdecks) and i reliably live LONGER in the XL version, because i can twist better to take dmg on arms and STs, with the STD engine i just get CT cored faster because im less agile and slower.

And those moments when you live because of choosing the STD engine tends to stand out to your memory, and when you slay the final enemy with just your head mounted laser in a Banshee which has lost both of its side torsos the feeling is just good... rare cases are fun after all.

I never denied that XL engines are for you if all you seek is maximum efficiency out of everything, I am simply advocating people to try and figure out what is their own preference by giving it a try.

Also... you're Inner Sphere! Proudly wear your STD engines, for Clans would too but they can't even mount the things because they are technologically inferior and have yet to invent engines which only take up space in the center torso!

[Widowmaker1981]

Silra, on 28 April 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

Also... you're Inner Sphere! Proudly wear your STD engines, for Clans would too but they can't even mount the things because they are technologically inferior and have yet to invent engines which only take up space in the center torso!

Nope, Merc for life. Play Clan and IS just as much as each other.

Also, Clans do have STD engines - its just silly to use them outside of weird builds (like This or the soon to be KDK-3 quad gauss STD 300 joke build - its better than the quad gauss Dire joke build)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 28 April 2016 - 03:09 AM.

[TercieI]

DerMaulwurf, on 27 April 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

Our differences boil down to one easy point: You are talking about viability in a competitive scenario, I'm talking about viability in a common scenario.

I get the criticism of my point, since pretty much anything is at least somewhat viable in the YOLO queue, so it's a very loose standard at best. However I would argue that it is the kind of situation that most players actually care about. I'm just choosing general applicability over rigorousness.

I will not encounter the best teams in the game. Period. And neither will the vast majority of MWO players.



It's probably not clear from my post, but XL engines are my default choice. I do frequently experiment with builds and that includes STD builds. Most of the time I conclude that my performance after losing a ST is notworth the weight/loss of speed. There are exceptions though.

Why wouldn't you see the best teams and players? You're Tier 1, don't you see SJR, EmP, Lord, 228, AS, etc? I do, and I like to have a chance to compete against those guys even in pubs. Also, and again this may be play to win thinking, but that's how I'm wired, I assume that in a solo match, my performance has a meaningful effect on the outcome (and in my experience it does), so I want to maximize that effect (note I do level mechs and experiment in solo queue, but when talking about viability, I'm excluding such situations where I know I'm not optimally configured even though I still try hard as ever of course).

Edited by TercieI, 28 April 2016 - 03:19 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Silra, on 28 April 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

This topic was about viability of XL engines for Enforcers, and from top level comp point of view you wouldn't even bring an Enforcer to begin with.
So XL engines are viable on Enforcer... Enforcer itself might not be viable though, even with the XL engine.

ENF-4R is quite meta, and is used in comp i believe.

[TercieI]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 April 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

ENF-4R is quite meta, and is used in comp i believe.

Absolutely, though the HBK-IIC has eaten into its niche.

@Silra: I'm using "play to win" in the sense of an approach to gaming. Google "Sirlin play to win" if you're not familiar with it, it explains the competitive gaming mindset quite well