19 replies to this topic

[Raso]

So we had the LBX changes and the PPC changes. It's been a few weeks, now, and while my ear isn't to the ground like it use to be I haven't heard much clamoring about the LBX or PPC master race wrecking the current meta. It seems like even with the changes no one is really talking about them anymore which I take to mean that they're basically still dead to most players.

Is it time for another balance pass? I certainly think so. I've away enjoyed using the LBX and PPC but I still feel they need some love. Others and myself have shared ideas until we are blue in the face (boost damage per pellet on LBX at close range, increased velocity on PPCs and so on and so on). It's also not like we suddenly woke up one morning and these weapons were suddenly trash. Their problems have been noted for some time now. Are these weapons going to get more love or did PGI just waste their time making a few little tweaks on weapons no one is still going to use?

[Corrado]

PPCs are a BIT more useful. LBX still far from good, the only viable LBX build i can think of is the 4LBX mauler. the LBX cent is still crap (compared to YLW and cent-AH)

EDIT:

now my 2xAC5 2xPPC firebrand performs a bit better.

Edited by Corrado, 26 April 2016 - 02:07 PM.

[Raso]

I don't believe these weapons should be limited to be usable only on mechs with highly specialized quirks. I think that some mechs do pack iconic weapons and they should probably get something to boost the use of those weapons somehow. But in my opinion if a weapon is usless on all but a few, select mechs something is wrong.

[Barantor]

I think the LBX could use a very small velocity boost and a small spread reduction and it might be at least not terrible. It got better, but still not quite there. Either that or a cooldown boost so it fires faster.

PPC needs another slight heat and velocity buff and it will be just about right.

[cazidin]

PPCs
1,400-1,500 M/S
9 Heat

ER PPCs
1,500-1,600 M/S
13-14 Heat

C-ER PPCs
1,500-1,600 M/S
14 Heat.

LBX
1.1-1.2 damage per pellet.
Standardized tight spread.

[Raso]

cazidin, on 26 April 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

PPCs
1,400-1,500 M/S
9 Heat

ER PPCs
1,500-1,600 M/S
13-14 Heat

C-ER PPCs
1,500-1,600 M/S
14 Heat.

LBX
1.1-1.2 damage per pellet.
Standardized tight spread.

I would actually go as far as to suggest that the pellets deal as much as 1.5 damage inside of 10% of their current range and then decreasing to 1 per pellets on at s linear rate at their optimal range. Make their spread ever so slightly tighter than what it is now. Make them scary shot guns.

[Big Tin Man]

Until the triple LBX10 Ilya is scary again, the LBX will need improvement.

[Corrado]

lowering spread again would take off the LBX soul. i'd say faster ROF. till it gets popular as much as the regular AC10.

Edited by Corrado, 26 April 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

LBX:
Using the LB10, if damage were to be left as-is, spread should be adjusted such that you are able to get 80% of the clusters onto the CT of an Atlas at 360m, and 60% at 540m. Velocity should be boosted further. Overall objective should be to make it more than a low-heat ballistic SRM with better crits to substantiate its tonnage cost.

IS ER PPCs feels significantly better on the Awesomes that are quirked with lower heat gen. Unquirked IS ER PPC probably has room for base heat adjustment from 14 to 13.5 before offsetting existing quirks starts becoming necessary.

Clan ER PPCs, if they really were to become 14 or 15 pinpoint damage after Ghost Heat 2.0 is out, may need its heat to go back up to 15, though that is my speculation.

Regular IS PPC needs its minimum range rolled back to 90m scaling damage instead of a hard dead zone before anything else.

[Gryphorim]

PPCs still hotter and less damaging than LPL. Range advantage completely outweighed by projectile speed.
To improve PPCs, Cazadin has the right figures, but that still leaves ERPPCs a little hot for their damage potential. I dunno, that buff to projectile speed might do it.
LBX's can't take much more spread reduction without, as Corrado says, removing their soul.
I'd like to see 1.5 times damage at half optimal, 1.2 at optimal and 1 at max ranges, and maybe a cooldown buff.
Clan ACs (which are LBX ACs with solid ammo) I think, need a single solid round, so as to not be completely overshadowed.

[Raso]

I agree about the further reduction of the LBX's spread. I think from here it has to be rate of fire and damage changes. Make it a scary, close range weapon. A specialized alternative to the AC10 with its own, unique play style.

I believe half of the problem with the LBX10 is it lives in the shadow of the AC10 and people try to use it like one. Instead I believe it needs to care out it;s own niche. It's already lighter and produces less heat than the AC10 so that means if it does remain a close range spread weapon there is more room for back up lasers. Follow that route. Keep it's spread (and definitely continue to tune it further), up it's damage a hair and boost it's rate of fire a bit. Make it out DPS an AC10 in close range but less effective than an AC10 beyond about 360m to 420m.

We already have an AC10. We don't need a lighter one that utterly outclasses the original.

Edited by Raso, 27 April 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[Richard Hazen]

The Orion M with an LBX and SRMs is a good shot gun mech.

[Raso]

And the Rifleman hero is too. But if a weapon is only usable on quirked mechs something is off. Quirks should make individual mechs stand out not pigeon hole usless weapons to a select few mechs.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The LB spreads damage too much to be useful outside of 150-200 meters. At that range they are overshadowed by SRMs.

The whole mechanic of the weapon needs a rework. As it is, it won't be useful until the spread is reduced so much it doesn't look like a shotgun anymore or the damage is so high that it is potentially broken.

[kapusta11]

I'll just say what I say in every thread about LBX - it needs fixed projectile spread so that it can be effective at its max range. SRMs have fixed missile spread, mechanic is there so what's the problem.

Edited by kapusta11, 27 April 2016 - 07:30 AM.

[Tordin]

The PPC and LBX changes are steps in the right direction. Small baby steps indeed but better than to take huge messy steps without a way to tune it sown...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Raso, on 26 April 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

I don't believe these weapons should be limited to be usable only on mechs with highly specialized quirks.

replace "these" with "any and im with you. quirks system is purile crap

[SplashDown]

I see way more players useing,,PPC's and LBX now more than ever..it may not be ideal for tier one players but then again if its not meta then that just means its fun to use...who cares if the tier 1 dead heads like it or not

[Raso]

Tordin, on 27 April 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

The PPC and LBX changes are steps in the right direction. Small baby steps indeed but better than to take huge messy steps without a way to tune it sown...

My fear is that we won't see continued steps. Me fear is that they threw us a bone just to momentarily please us. There's nothing wrong with baby steps. It's when you only take a single baby step that things get dicey.

Again, my ear isn't to the ground like it use to be, but I do hope that PGI is continuing to monitor the effectiveness of these weapons and will follow up with more changes before long.

Rouken Vordermark, on 27 April 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

The LB spreads damage too much to be useful outside of 150-200 meters. At that range they are overshadowed by SRMs.

The whole mechanic of the weapon needs a rework. As it is, it won't be useful until the spread is reduced so much it doesn't look like a shotgun anymore or the damage is so high that it is potentially broken.

Barring a rework I feel that while the spread is the most obvious difference the LBX has over a normal AC that it is also not the most critical flaw the weapon has. In fact I believe that we can use it's spread to make it distinct from the AC10 without turning it into a lighter AC10. I think that with a buff to damage and rate of fire (and even some more tuning to the spread) that the LBX can be converted into a scary, close range weapon that still leaves room for the standard ACs to function as mid-long range powerhouses.

[jss78]

As far as LB-10X -- I wonder how many of you have tried putting 3 x SRM 2 in a mech that has three tight-packed missile hardpoints in a single location. SHD-2K, Wolverines, some Zeuses, probably others. It's basically a very similar weapon: a bit higher damage, similar spread, similar effective range. The difference: weapon weight is 3 tons vs. 11 tons. That tells me all I need to know about the LB-10X.

To make the LB-10X useful, IMO two things need to happen. First, ammo switching. Second, we need targets against which the clustershot is scary. Maybe make it a lot scarier against internal structure, or maybe future PVE content adds "soft" targets like infantry and soft-skinned vehicles.

I kinda like the current IS PPC except for the minimum range. IMO the mechanic of full damage of at 90 m but zero damage at 89 m is really silly. Make it a linear damage dropoff from 90 m to 0 m instead, and possibly with some of the lost damage splashing back on the firing mech. I'd still only use it on a mech with at least +40% velocity quirk, but then those quirks are very common.

IS ERPPC gains a lot of heat for extra range which isn't that commonly needed vs. PPC (full damage out to ~600 m with range module).

Edited by jss78, 27 April 2016 - 09:30 AM.