32 replies to this topic

[Zirakss]

The new scout and counter-scout missions are looking very interesting to me. Sadly I don't have fitting mechs.

For the attacker role I would guess the ECM raven or the oxide are good choices.

But for the defender role I could use some advice.

In the defender role you have to take out some fast lights, so I came to this assumptions:

• Should be reasonable fast, to get a light mech. I would say at least 100kph.
  
• Jump Jets would be great.
  
• Beagle Active Probe (BAP) or a ECM is a must.
  
• Weapons should be good for hunting light mechs: SRM, Stream SRM, Laser or fast firing ACs.
  
• A reasonable amount of armor.

As a weight class I would guess 50 or 55t would be optimal.

I talked with my unit comrades and got some advice:

• SRMs are king. It's all about alpha strikes.
  
• They consider IS Streak SRM as not worth the trouble.

For myself I'am not sure about the streak SRMs. Never played with them.

I browsed smurphy and found two chassis:

• Kintaro KTO-18
  
• Griffin GRF-2N

The Kintaro has five missle hardpoints, where the griffin got only four. But he has jump jets and ECM. So I would guess the griffin is more versatile.

I came to two builds with streak SRM:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e2b4adaf6c28760
KTO-18
5 x Streak SRM2 + 4t
2 x ML
1 x AMS + 1,5t
Beagle Active Probe
Jumpjets: keine
Armor: 368
Speed 106.0 kph
Comment: I'am not sure about the AMS. I guess a lot of the enemy light mechs are packed with SRM. Is an AMS able to get enough SRM down to make the installation of system plus ammo worth while? Maybe a problem: More than four SRM2 produce ghost heat.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e13e398547c941
GRF-2N
4 x Streak SRM2 + 3,5t
2 x ML
ECM
Beagle Active Probe
Jumpjets: 5
Armor: 368
Speed 106.0 kph
Comment: I fitted BAP and guardian ECM in the assumption, that more than one enemy got ECM. But I have no idea if the combination is able to counter two ECMs.

And one build with SRM4 instead of Streak SRM2:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec3f687232d9815
GRF-2N
4 x SRM4 + 3t
2 x ML
ECM
Jumpjets: 5
Armor: 368
Speed 106.0 kph
Comment: Exchanged the BAP and Streak SRM2 for SRM4, after talking with some folks of my unit.

What would you choose?
A kintaro, griffin or something completly different?

Are Streak SRM2 are worth it?

[Rogue Jedi]

Zirakss, on 25 April 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

The new scout and counter-scout missions are looking very interesting to me. Sadly I don't have fitting mechs.

For the attacker role I would guess the ECM raven or the oxide are good choices.

But for the defender role I could use some advice.

In the defender role you have to take out some fast lights, so I came to this assumptions:

• Should be reasonable fast, to get a light mech. I would say at least 100kph.
  
• Jump Jets would be great.
  
• Beagle Active Probe (BAP) or a ECM is a must.
  
• Weapons should be good for hunting light mechs: SRM, Stream SRM, Laser or fast firing ACs.
  
• A reasonable amount of armor.

As a weight class I would guess 50 or 55t would be optimal.


I talked with my unit comrades and got some advice:

• SRMs are king. It's all about alpha strikes.
  
• They consider IS Streak SRM as not worth the trouble.

For myself I'am not sure about the streak SRMs. Never played with them.


I browsed smurphy and found two chassis:

• Kintaro KTO-18
  
• Griffin GRF-2N

The Kintaro has five missle hardpoints, where the griffin got only four. But he has jump jets and ECM. So I would guess the griffin is more versatile.


I came to two builds with streak SRM:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e2b4adaf6c28760
KTO-18
5 x Streak SRM2 + 4t
2 x ML
1 x AMS + 1,5t
Beagle Active Probe
Jumpjets: keine
Armor: 368
Speed 106.0 kph
Comment: I'am not sure about the AMS. I guess a lot of the enemy light mechs are packed with SRM. Is an AMS able to get enough SRM down to make the installation of system plus ammo worth while? Maybe a problem: More than four SRM2 produce ghost heat.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e13e398547c941
GRF-2N
4 x Streak SRM2 + 3,5t
2 x ML
ECM
Beagle Active Probe
Jumpjets: 5
Armor: 368
Speed 106.0 kph
Comment: I fitted BAP and guardian ECM in the assumption, that more than one enemy got ECM. But I have no idea if the combination is able to counter two ECMs.

And one build with SRM4 instead of Streak SRM2:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec3f687232d9815
GRF-2N
4 x SRM4 + 3t
2 x ML
ECM
Jumpjets: 5
Armor: 368
Speed 106.0 kph
Comment: Exchanged the BAP and Streak SRM2 for SRM4, after talking with some folks of my unit.

What would you choose?
A kintaro, griffin or something completly different?

Are Streak SRM2 are worth it?

for a Light hunter I would probably take an FS9-E with SPLs and machine Guns or an FS9-A with just SPLs, if I had to take a Medium it would be the GRF-3M or 2N with SRM4s and MPLs, chain fire the SRMs do not alpha.

with SSRMs you will have trouble getting a lock on fast lights to use them on some maps, I persionaly find normal SRMs to be far more effective than any type of Streak SRMs but that is just me, if you do decide to take Streaks make sure to also take a Beagle Active Probe.

I would not recomend the XL 360, you can do just as well with a 325 or 330 but have more firepower and ammo, the extra few KPH will not matter, although the faster twist speed from the 360 may help, but with the 2N I would go for something like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1e631dea9acb11e
I would not put any ammo in the legs mostly because in scouting mode half of players seem to be aiming to leg rather than kill, but if you have unused ammo in the leg and you are legged that ammo is is likely to explode and kill you,
I have the ammo in the right torso because I usualy sheild with the left, so I do not want anything likely to go boom after I loose the left arm and armor on the left torso

[mogs01gt]

I'd change the kto build to this:
KTO-18

The issue is if you get surrounded by multiple ECM mechs

[Digital_Angel]

The champion Jenner setup is a heck of a light hunter too.

[Zirakss]

mogs01gt, on 25 April 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

I'd change the kto build to this:
KTO-18
The issue is if you get surrounded by multiple ECM mechs

Seems a good idea to throw out AMS and upgrade the ML to MPLs.

LadyDanams, on 25 April 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

The champion Jenner setup is a heck of a light hunter too.

It's the oxide. I already had some unfortunate meetings with it in normal missions.

[Digital_Angel]

Zirakss, on 25 April 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

It's the oxide. I already had some unfortunate meetings with it in normal missions.

The Oxide as well, but the Champion Jenner JR7-F setup with the 6 MLs is what i was referring to. If you know you are doing nothing but scouting for a bit, swapping the 6MLs to 6 SPLs is pretty nasty at hunting lights as well and not as hot, but gives up some range.

[TercieI]

Rogue Jedi, on 25 April 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

chain fire the SRMs do not alpha.

This is very bad advice (as chain firing almost always is). SRMs are great against lights if you can aim them well, but one of their main advantages is the ability to ruin one leg (and sometimes damage the other substantially as well depending on angle) in a single salvo. Chain firing basically surrenders their hitting power.

As others have noted: SRMs and SPLs work very well. Another good option is the BJ-1X. 42 point alpha (6ML and 2MPL) will wreck a leg with good painting.

Edited by TercieI, 25 April 2016 - 07:09 AM.

[Tigerwolf]

I love my Griffin-2N with 2 ML's and 4 Srm4's. Runs 110 kph, have 2 Srms to one mouse button, the other 2 on another with the ML's on yet another. I use the ML's for range and tracking when close seeing as they are in the arm and the Srm's to blast the legs of both Clan lights and Stormcrows. The ecm counters the enemy ecm and the jump jets help with mobility. Still, it cannot be overstated, the most important part of this mech is being on a team that works together and can focus fire!

[TercieI]

Tigerwolf, on 25 April 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

Still, it cannot be overstated, the most important part of this mech is being on a team that works together and can focus fire!

This is very true and even more so in 4v4. When our group has dropped in 3s, we've been very purposeful about communicating with the fourth and have managed to win a couple 3v4s with a disconnected PUG by focusing extra hard.

[Rogue Jedi]

TercieI, on 25 April 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Rogue Jedi, on 25 April 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

chain fire the SRMs do not alpha.

This is very bad advice (as chain firing almost always is). SRMs are great against lights if you can aim them well, but one of their main advantages is the ability to ruin one leg (and sometimes damage the other substantially as well depending on angle) in a single salvo. Chain firing basically surrenders their hitting power.

you are of course more than welcome to disagree but if you alpha 3/4 of the missiles will miss wide anyway, if I can often take out the leg of a Light in 4-8 chain fired shots but alpha and it will usualy take me 4+ alpha strikes ^{(at least twice as long)} to remove the leg ^{(if the Light is foolish enough to stay close)},

[edit] I probably should have worded that earlier post a bit better, am not suggesting the slow half second per volley chain fire you get by holding down fire but instead set the group to chain fire, line up the shot and tap fire rapidly to get off all 4 shots as fast as you can, this way you get the tight grouping of chain fire with quickly cycling to land the 4x4 missile salvos inside less than a second, and it is still effective against targets more than 50 meters away unlike an alpha strike.
[/edit]

I find the tighter spread of chain-fired SRMs to be far more useful than the big boom of alpha, but this must just be down to personal preference and playstyle.

the only time I would alpha strike with more than 8 SRMs is if firing at point blank range at the back of a heavy or assault Mech which I think I can kill with that alpha.

again I am not saying Terciel is wrong just explaining my opinion.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 25 April 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[John Stryker]

Phoenix Hawk. Or CN9-D3 when it comes out, has MASC to give chase and if i remember tops out around 118kph

Edited by John Stryker, 25 April 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[TercieI]

Rogue Jedi, on 25 April 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

you are of course more than welcome to disagree but if you alpha 3/4 of the missiles will miss wide anyway, if I can often take out the leg of a Light in 4-8 chain fired shots but alpha and it will usualy take me 4+ alpha strikes ^{(at least twice as long)} to remove the leg ^{(if the Light is foolish enough to stay close)}.

I find the tighter spread of chain-fired SRMs to be far more useful than the big boom of alpha, but this must just be down to personal preference and playstyle.

the only time I would alpha strike with more than 8 SRMs is if firing at point blank range at the back of a heavy or assault Mech which I think I can kill with that alpha.

again I am not saying Terciel is wrong just explaining my opinion.

Artemis 16 out of a GRF-3M all originating from one torso should have almost no missiles scatter off. On the 2N you should be running A24. More scatter but more hitting power. Good players nail light legs with these configs all the time.

[Koniving]

If you're specifically hunting lights... Streaks are worth the trouble but remember to chain fire them for the best effectiveness. Need 2 to 6 launchers though and supplement them with lasers or pulse lasers.

Streaks are coded so that each missile tries to find a completely different body part to attack with the intention that none of the missiles overlap. This is in exchange for 100% accuracy despite defying every law of physics that ever existed. The caveat is that they do this check when they fire. If you fire 6 Stream SRM-2s, that's 12 missiles spreading around 8 body parts so yes some will overlap but never will you get more than two per section so you get:

Leg,
side torso,
center torso,
other side torso,
arm,
other arm,
other leg,
head,
center torso,
leg, arm,
other arm.

Pretty scattered right?

Thus chain firing. As it happens they go for legs and a side torso very frequently and so when you chain fire.
Leg,
side torso.
Leg,
side torso.
other leg,
side torso.
Leg,
other side torso.
other leg,
arm.
center torso,
side torso.

Many more shots hitting desired targets like legs and side torsos for faster kills. Supplement with some lasers and you've got yourself a light hunter.

[epikt]

Rogue Jedi, on 25 April 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

the tighter spread of chain-fired SRMs

Do chain fire SRMs have tighter spread? As far as I know, they don't.


@OP: on the IS side best light hunters are the lights themselves. SPLas on a Firestarter or a Wolfhound, SRM4s on an Oxide, etc. Aim at the legs.
Don't bother with streaks, IS streaks are garbage.

[CJ Daxion]

epikt, on 25 April 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Do chain fire SRMs have tighter spread? As far as I know, they don't.

Actually depending on your launcher location, they can definitely tighten up. I Often will chain fire 4's on certain mechs, especially verse lights. Take a stalker for example, the SRM launchers are pretty far apart, so if you fire both at once, you have a giant cluster flying towards the enemy, Where as if you chain, and you can basically double click so they are in a cluster anyway, but it ends up being lots tighter..

Now if your missiles are all in one side then it becomes less of an issue.

I enjoy running a cicada 3M for hunting lights, also HBK's are pretty fun, but a bit on the slow side if they decide to bolt. A wolverine with a big engine works well.

Edited by CJ Daxion, 25 April 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[Koniving]

epikt, on 25 April 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Do chain fire SRMs have tighter spread? As far as I know, they don't.

An old script, if still enabled, is supposed to spread ALL non-streak missiles fired at the same time (SRMs and LRMs). The more missiles fired at once, the more they are supposed to 'loosen' or spread as of late 2012 and made a bit stronger with the frst missile recoding in early 2013.

At first it was to help mitigate the problem of SRM splash damage multiplication.
In 2013, it was made a little 'looser' not so much to reduce the concentration of damage but because of a limitation in both CryEngine and later exacerbated by the HSR (Host State Rewind) system in which mass amounts of missiles would result in some of them being 'deleted'. Specifically if more than 6 missiles hit a single body part at the same time, any missiles above 6 were shifted to "0.1 seconds" after that state of impact, which on already glancing blows could result in registered misses. In mass waves like 6 SRM-6, you're looking at this happening very often. Even with just 2 SRM-6 this can happen. Furthermore, if the damage had to be spread to say 0.2 seconds after the initial impact they are simply deleted from the damage queue.

In the long run, you actually hurt yourself by mass-firing SRMs or LRMs.

Note: The number I stated may actually be 4 instead of 6. It is one of the two.

In CryEngine, the MWO SRMs and LRMs register as "Grenades" in the CryEngine scripts. As CryEngine is meant for first person shooters, it is not meant to do stuff like sectional damage on a 1:1 scale with most mechs averaging about 14 meters tall (when taking lights through assaults into account). I can imagine Star Citizen would run into the same problem.

Edited by Koniving, 25 April 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[epikt]

Thanks for your answers.
It won't change my alpha-strike-or-die mindset (alpha-strike = ability to dodge, shield, reposition, etc) but I learnt something today.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

One thing:

KTO-18 used to be THE light hunter, before the Clammer invasion. Seriously. Folks often ran scared at the sight of one, or even the suggestion that one may have been spotted in such-and-such place. They were SCARY good at what they did, and not much else.

There are exceptions to that last part, of course, based on the comfort of some mutant-skunk-ape pilot who actually LIKES that thing. Not many though.

But then, Kintaro is a pretty rare chassis to spot nowadays. There are SO many good chassis, and there have been so many changes to weapons in the few years since Streaktaros terrorized us JennerJockeys. Best bet these days isn't Streaks, at least on the IS side. And 4v4 has started imparting its wisdom to us.

SRMs, low-duration-high-DPS hitscans (pulse lasers), and with some pilots, high-caliber autocannons. And Shadow Hawk does all of those. Griffin does 2/3, and does them very well.

If you're an all-energy-all-day kind of dude, then the BJ-1X may be your ride for this DESPITE its lack of JJs. Or maybe some variant of the CRB (YESH PREAZHE!). But the bigshots right now are running SHDs and GRFs for Scouting A LOT. And that's because THEY WORK.

TL;DR- Forget Kintaro, go Griffin!

[Koniving]

Koniving, on 25 April 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Specifically if more than 6 missiles hit a single body part at the same time, any missiles above 6 were shifted to "0.1 seconds" after that state of impact, which on already glancing blows could result in registered misses. In mass waves like 6 SRM-6, you're looking at this happening very often. Even with just 2 SRM-6 this can happen. Furthermore, if the damage had to be spread to say 0.2 seconds after the initial impact they are simply deleted from the damage queue.

Edit:
Looked it up. Shifted to 0.01 seconds (so 1/100th of a second not 0.1 seconds) after the actual impact.

They do shift up to 0.05 (1/50th) seconds after the impact after which they are simply deleted.

And the issue with deleted missiles is the server works on 100 frames per second, anything happening between 0.01 and 0.02 didn't exist and so missiles lobbed at weird angles could also theoretically get deleted. The more missiles fired at once, the more likely missiles were going to get 'lost' or not register.

Of note: As of 2013 the servers are supposed to round up/down for missile explosion info so that they 'happen'. The end result of that fix was a massive damage nerf in LRM damage from that point on (from 1.8 down to almost 1.2 for a long while).

And thus:

My words here about mass-firing LRMs, and the visual demonstration of mass amounts of damage through chain firing.
Mind you the information is from 2013 and is without update. As such this issue may or may not have been fixed since then.

Edited by Koniving, 26 April 2016 - 01:25 PM.

[Windscape]

stupid streakcrows are what get me every time