82 replies to this topic

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Maybe a more watered down version is that the IS Streaks ignore Arms, while the Clan streaks don't?

I dunnoo... as a light pilot I rather like them ignoring my legs lol

[Lugh]

Mcgral18, on 29 April 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

You don't seem to be very objective

The isSSRM is outright inferior.

Heavier and less range by a fair margin, with identical heat, cooldown and damage



Why shouldn't the isSSRM2 get a bonus over the cSSRM2, while the cSSRM has MANY benefits over the isSSRM2?

Maybe the IS pilots should 1) learn to aim 2) shoot srms (they have slightly more damage IS side) and 3) profit?!?!

[Adamski]

Lugh, on 29 April 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Maybe the IS pilots should 1) learn to aim 2) shoot srms (they have slightly more damage IS side) and 3) profit?!?!

I'm not going to get into standard SRMs, since this isn't the thread for it, but if Clans spend the tonnage on Artemis, their SRMs are still lighter than IS versions, and have a much tighter spread.

[Douglas grizzly]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

That will still leave the IS SEVERELY outgunned in the Streak missiles department, as they will still weigh 50% more and have 34% less range.

so what is the problem when on scouting missions when the average is group is out gunning clans and beating them? Right now the way we win is by building enough teams to get ghost drops, unless we get extremely good teams.

[Douglas grizzly]

one of the best things in IS favors is their mechs are designed for sheer toughness and the streak missles will not hit a specific target like most artiemis launchers. If you want to make it fair take some of the toughness tweaks away from the IS mechas.

[Davegt27]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

The Inner Sphere Streak SRM2's need a MAJOR balance pass.

Lets compare, Inner Sphere:
Streak SRM2
1 slot
1.5 tons
4 damage
2 heat
3.5s cooldown
270m range
250m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 5th launcher

Clans:
Streak SRM2
1 slot
1 ton
4 damage
2 heat
3.5s cooldown
360m range
230m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 5th launcher


Streak SRM4
1 slot
2 tons
8 damage
3 heat
5s cooldown
360m range
230m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 4th launcher


Streak SRM6
2 slots
3 tons
12 damage
4 heat
6s cooldown
360m range
230m/s missile speed
Ghost heat on 4th launcher

All told, the IS maxes out at 8 SSRM missiles without ghost heat, while the Clans max out at 18 SSRM missiles without ghost heat.

Clan SSRM have 34% more range

If you are looking for an IS advantage somewhere, I assure you, the 9% speed boost does not make up for the 34% less range and extra 50% weight.

I would like to see PGI increase the Ghost heat on SSRM2s to be 1 less than standard SRMs (this is already the case for cSSRM4 & cSSRM6)

I would also like to see PGI reduce the heat on the IS SSRM2 from 2 heat down to 1-1.5, OR increase the range to 360 to match the Clans.

Anyone else with thoughts / suggestions?

Yeah IS needs streak 4 launchers

[Dhatman]

Douglas grizzly, on 29 April 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

one of the best things in IS favors is their mechs are designed for sheer toughness and the streak missles will not hit a specific target like most artiemis launchers. If you want to make it fair take some of the toughness tweaks away from the IS mechas.

the strong xl engins on is side

[Adamski]

Douglas grizzly, on 29 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

so what is the problem when on scouting missions when the average is group is out gunning clans and beating them? Right now the way we win is by building enough teams to get ghost drops, unless we get extremely good teams.

Douglas grizzly, on 29 April 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

one of the best things in IS favors is their mechs are designed for sheer toughness and the streak missles will not hit a specific target like most artiemis launchers. If you want to make it fair take some of the toughness tweaks away from the IS mechas.

Your inane ramblings have nothing to do with the topic at hand, nor are they even accurate representations of current gameplay.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a9cfc02061f5ef0

Find me an IS Medium mech that can match that mech for speed, firepower, and toughness. You either lose the speed & firepower to get a Standard Engine, or you lose the Toughness and take an XL engine. And even then its almost impossible for an IS medium to get an alpha that large.

Davegt27, on 29 April 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yeah IS needs streak 4 launchers

Still wont fix the issue, which is IS launchers cost 50% more tonnage, for 34% less range, all for a 9% increase in missile speed.

If the IS mechs got quirks to make Streaks viable, then standard missiles would become much stronger.

[Mcgral18]

Lugh, on 29 April 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Maybe the IS pilots should 1) learn to aim 2) shoot srms (they have slightly more damage IS side) and 3) profit?!?!

...seriously?

People bring up 0.15 damage, and entirely ignore the proposed argument?


What's the forum equivalent to PUG LIFE?

[Flak Kannon]

How about this idea.

Add TAG to any streak fired, the TAG will home in on that specific section of the mech.

Otherwise, the Streak mechanic works as is.

That way, if a mech is sneaky enough to creep up on that Warhawk lobbing LRMs, and the light uses its tag it can pick the specific component it wants to target.



Thoughts?

ps.. I DO NOT advocate any ones tag working, just your OWN TAG. Another mech can't streak tag a mechs component for you.

[Triordinant]

They should make all matches Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS until they fix ALL Clan/IS balance issues. It costs nothing and can be implemented in an hour.

[Amsro]

Make all streaks lock onto the "bone" that the crosshair is pointing at, upon the time of fire.

So if you aim at the legs and fire your streaks they will home in on the leg. Same goes for all locations, this way you can put the streaks where you want them with some aim and patients.

[Moldur]

I'm all for this. Clan superiority is a myth. Way back when Clans were introduced, PGI decided that the two factions were going to be different, not strictly better or worse. Letting things like streaks continue to be so lopsided really just shoots the game in the foot in terms of balance. It gives IS fans 1 more chip to say "Well look at THIS! We should have something strictly better too!" Which keeps us further from having a balanced game, and the balance that we all have to intrinsically accept is that Clans and IS are not better or worse, but different from each other. If certain tech and lore get in the way of this and make one side strictly better, then they should be ignored. Sorry. I had to say it. That's what PGI did with clans as a whole, and we aren't going to convince them to do a 180 at this point, guys.

Douglas grizzly, on 29 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

so what is the problem when on scouting missions when the average is group is out gunning clans and beating them? Right now the way we win is by building enough teams to get ghost drops, unless we get extremely good teams.

By your own admittance, IS already has options that can go toe to toe with Clans, surely adding one more option doesn't hurt balance unless it is actually more powerful than any other option, and I think almost everyone here can agree that Streaks are NOT going to overshadow the rest of the IS loadout.

[Moldur]

Amsro, on 29 April 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

Make all streaks lock onto the "bone" that the crosshair is pointing at, upon the time of fire.

So if you aim at the legs and fire your streaks they will home in on the leg. Same goes for all locations, this way you can put the streaks where you want them with some aim and patients.

That is a cool idea, but it would need something to balance it out or else it would be like auto-focusing an SRM salvo. It would need something like a very short lock maintain time if you go off target, worse targeting radius, or maybe a long lock-on time.

Is this just talking about how we could change IS streaks to make them different but competitive against clan streaks, or how all streaks should be?

Edited by Moldur, 29 April 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Alistair Winter, on 29 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Make all streaks home in on the component you were aiming at when you fired. If you're not aiming at a specific component, they, won't fire.

Adjust damage, heat, cooldown and spread to compensate for them actually requiring aiming skills.

So, you mean just remove normal SRMs from the game because they will be worthless compared to non-spreading streaks?

[Moldur]

Prosperity Park, on 29 April 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

So, you mean just remove normal SRMs from the game because they will be worthless compared to non-spreading streaks?

Again. It's a cool idea, but it would need limitations to not make it overshadow regular SRMs completely. Long lock time, easy to lose lock, maybe they just can't turn very well or something. We need to be creative.

[Alistair Winter]

Prosperity Park, on 29 April 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

So, you mean just remove normal SRMs from the game because they will be worthless compared to non-spreading streaks?

As a rule of thumb, it's a really bad idea to get into any kind of discussion, especially one that is entirely academic, and try to interpret other people's argument in the worst light possible. It very rarely leads to any kind of learning.

Obviously, no kind of target lock mechanic is going to make any weapon inherently worthless or absolutely dominant. It depends on how much damage they do, cooldown, heat, etc, in addition to how the target lock mechanic works.

So.... no. That's not what I mean.

[Mystere]

Sigh! These never-ending Clan vs. IS balance arguments will never ever end until Clan mechs, weapons, and equipment are nothing more than reskinned versions of IS ones differing only in shape, color, and sound effects.

PGI should have just bitten the bullet, followed lore, and just "balanced" by numbers and drop weight. That's easier to tweak, hell even dynamically via an AI-based algorithm if so desired, than the endless changes and quirks that will have no end in sight.

So, PGI, can I now get -- at a very minimum -- my Clan binary vs.IS company battles.

And no, please don't call these things "matches". May Hades swallow for all eternity the body and soul of whoever decided to use that term in MWO.

[Adamski]

Prosperity Park, on 29 April 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

So, you mean just remove normal SRMs from the game because they will be worthless compared to non-spreading streaks?

Streaks take much longer to reload, so aiming Streaks wouldn't eliminate standard SRMs.

Mystere, on 29 April 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Sigh! These never-ending Clan vs. IS balance arguments will never ever end until Clan mechs, weapons, and equipment are nothing more than reskinned versions of IS ones differing only in shape, color, and sound effects.

PGI should have just bitten the bullet, followed lore, and just "balanced" by numbers and drop weight. That's easier to tweak, hell even dynamically via an AI-based algorithm if so desired, than the endless changes and quirks that will have no end in sight.

So, PGI, can I now get -- at a very minimum -- my Clan binary vs.IS company battles.

And no, please don't call these things "matches". May Hades swallow for all eternity the body and soul of whoever decided to use that term in MWO.

No, you can have your Clan Star versus an IS Reinforced Company, since that would actually fit the lore. Lore disparity was closer to 3.5:1, not 1.2:1

[Sjorpha]

FupDup, on 29 April 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

So are you saying we should have a weapon that is specialized at murdering heavies and assaults but sucks against lights and mediums? Because if you want a game of rock-paper-scissors, you don't get to leave out paper.

Yes absolutely!

But we already kind of have specialized assault killer light builds, so I don't really see how that case is hypothetical?

Midrange mechs are a bit more difficult to make specific counters to, but you could argue that assaults should have that role. Weapons that only heavy assaults could use, with superior armor penetration and damage for example. Or just the natural firepower advantage.

Some of these things occur naturally, there doesn't have to be specific weapons for everything as long as the strategic option to counter something arises. So for example if lights + certain weapons naturally becomes an assault counter, then you don't need a specific anti-assault weapon.

What I care about is that the game needs a strategic counterplay aspect that isn't just an arms race, things need to be more good and bad against different things. I want more specialization is the gist of it, and more emergent complexity.

Quote

I can already imagine the extreme forum rage about it...Streaks don't get complained about as much because lights are almost universally hated and despised. But the moment anything bad happens to somebody's fatty mech, the sky begins to fall...

Who complains about what isn't an argument, they'd simply be wrong and I wouldn't care.

Others would like it, you can't please everyone but you can do proper asymmetric strategic game design with counters and counter-counters despite the existence of idiots in the player base.

If you were to base decisions on potential "forum rage", especially with a fanbase as self entitled and touchy as the battletech one, you would never be able to do anything.