82 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Streaks aren't even really that good, I would always rather take regular Artemis SRMs, because shotgun.


That said, I do hope they fill in the remainder missing IS tech like SSRM, LBX2/5/20, UAC2/10/20, ER Small/Medium, etc. Though to do so it seems they would need to advance something of the clan, like maybe Rotary AC's and heavy lasers, perhaps even ATM's

[FupDup]

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Yes absolutely!

But we already kind of have specialized assault killer light builds, so I don't really see how that case is hypothetical?

No, we don't have those. Those so-called "assault killers" work against all targets.

I'm going to assume you're talking about mechs like the Oxide, Jenny IIC, and ACH, since those are the mechs people like to accuse of being too stronk.

The Oxide and Jenny IIC use SRMs, which are effective against all targets. The Cheeto's SPL's are also good against all target types. They work just as well against lights and mediums as they do against heavies and assaults. They are specialized close-range weapons, but they are not specialized anti-fatty weapons.

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

...
Some of these things occur naturally, there doesn't have to be specific weapons for everything as long as the strategic option to counter something arises. So for example if lights + certain weapons naturally becomes an assault counter, then you don't need a specific anti-assault weapon.
...

So why can't we let anti-light tactics work out that way instead of the current Streak mechanic that forces it?

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Who complains about what isn't an argument, they'd simply be wrong and I wouldn't care.

Others would like it, you can't please everyone but you can do proper asymmetric strategic game design with counters and counter-counters despite the existence of idiots in the player base.

If you were to base decisions on potential "forum rage", especially with a fanbase as self entitled and touchy as the battletech one, you would never be able to do anything.

Are you really sure about what would be unleashed here? People already complain A LOT about their big mechs getting pwned by little ones. Whenever a thread about "What do you enjoy most in MWO?" pops up, a pretty significant number of people answer that they enjoy killing lights as their greatest satisfaction. We still see almost daily hitbox or hitreg accusation threads against lights.

We you here during certain forum wars like the ECM scandal, the original version of Consumables, or the Transverse announcement? The kind of situation created by an anti-fatty weapon could easily rival those.

This funny was made to make fun of the people who do so:


Now imagine that on a global scale...

[adamts01]

Alistair Winter, on 29 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Make all streaks home in on the component you were aiming at when you fired. If you're not aiming at a specific component, they, won't fire.

Adjust damage, heat, cooldown and spread to compensate for them actually requiring aiming skills.

People like me who can't aim need something to use. It's not like streaks are OP or anything. Take away that crutch and I'll have to bring nothing but LRMs and LRMs suck

You want CT missiles? use ALRM5s, want to take off limbs? Streaks. Want to hit where you're aiming? SRMs.

Seriously though, this game needs more variety, making everything more direct fire isn't the solution. That's why I want to see LRMs buffed in a way that keeps a strong indirect fire aspect. Making them faster and flatter takes away one of the few strategies we have aside from peeking and poking.

[Lightfoot]

That is why Inner Sphere mechs get much better quirks. Clan tech is just better in 3050 based on the lore. I.S. get similar SSRMs later.

I thought this thread was going to be about making SSRMs into missiles instead of fuzzy dice rolls. There is no tracking mechanic in SSRMs you know? You fire them and the AI rolls dice to see where each one hit.

[Mystere]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

No, you can have your Clan Star versus an IS Reinforced Company, since that would actually fit the lore. Lore disparity was closer to 3.5:1, not 1.2:1

Well, I'm not that greedy.

Sjorpha, on 29 April 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

If you were to base decisions on potential "forum rage", especially with a fanbase as self entitled and touchy as the battletech one, you would never be able to do anything.

But isn't that what is already happening?

[FireDog]

Scout mode sucks with Streak Crows.... And why are heavy, 50-55 ton mediums scouting? They are skirmishers. I would think that is where the lights and lighter Mediums (40-45) would shine. Please FIX it PGI!

Edited by FireDog, 29 April 2016 - 08:44 PM.

[Adamski]

FireDog, on 29 April 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

Scout mode sucks with Streak Crows.... FIX it PGI!

Streak Crows spread their damage like crazy and have fairly low DPS and high heat. They aren't that big of a problem.

Skilled Crows can equip 4x SRM6 w/ Artimis & 6x ERSL and are much more devastating.

Streaks are most useful for eliminating an enemies lag shield, which means fast mechs and broken hitboxes. Currently the IS has no easy counters to those, so that's why I'm asking for IS SSRM2 to get a buff, so that they are at least as strong as cSSRM2

Mystere, on 29 April 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I'm not that greedy.



But isn't that what is already happening?

The point of doing 16v5 instead of 12v10 is that 12v10 isn't Lore friendly, so it means that you still need to rely on PGI to quirk the IS mechs since they are facing 2x as many Clans as they should be. And once you are giving PGI the reins to quirk the IS mechs, why not just take it all the way to 12v12 and eliminate the whole host of problems that asymmetrical team sizes bring with it.

[Mystere]

Adamski, on 29 April 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

The point of doing 16v5 instead of 12v10 is that 12v10 isn't Lore friendly, so it means that you still need to rely on PGI to quirk the IS mechs since they are facing 2x as many Clans as they should be. And once you are giving PGI the reins to quirk the IS mechs, why not just take it all the way to 12v12 and eliminate the whole host of problems that asymmetrical team sizes bring with it.

Well, 10v12 (i.e. Clan Binary vs. IS Company) is closer than 12v12.

And who said we cannot have other game modes that have different formations, like the new 4v4?

Edited by Mystere, 30 April 2016 - 03:48 PM.

[Adamski]

Mystere, on 30 April 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

Well, 10v12 (i.e. Clan Binary vs. IS Company) is closer than 12v12.

And who said we cannot have other game modes that have different formations, like the new 4v4?

10v12 is closer, but still isn't 12v12, which means you introduce all the issues of asymmetrical team sizes, and still have to introduce all the issues of relying on Paul to rebalance the game from the Tabletop values.

Its the worst of both worlds.

[Idealsuspect]

Alistair Winter, on 29 April 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Make all streaks SRMS home in on the component you were aiming at when you fired.

Yea we already did ... let bads or lazy pilots use streaks as they are ( maybe implement a little nerf like aim the mech itself not only the big red square for get lock .. same with lrms ) dont make the game easier for them .

I say this coze there is nothing hard with aiming a component.

[Adamski]

Idealsuspect, on 30 April 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

Yea we already did ... let bads or lazy pilots use streaks as they are ( maybe implement a little nerf like aim the mech itself not only the big red square for get lock .. same with lrms ) dont make the game easier for them .

I say this coze there is nothing hard with aiming a component.

If fixing IS Streak SRMs means bringing Clan Streak SRMs down to their level, I'm fine with that too.

There just shouldnt be a huge gap in tonnage consumed and range, without some other offsetting factor to bring balance.

Edited by Adamski, 30 April 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Scout mode sucks with Streak Crows.... And why are heavy, 50-55 ton mediums scouting?

Because clans have absolutely no chance without 50-55 tonners. IS completely dominates the 35-45 weight bracket.

You're seriously going to make clanners fight blackjacks/griffins/oxides using arctic cheetahs? Because thats just as unbalanced as the current situation.

I do however agree that IS Streaks need to be as good as C Streaks.

Edited by Khobai, 30 April 2016 - 06:45 PM.

[Idealsuspect]

Adamski, on 30 April 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

If fixing IS Streak SRMs means bringing Clan Streak SRMs down to their level, I'm fine with that too.

There just shouldnt be a huge gap in tonnage consumed and range, without some other offsetting factor to bring balance.

What about IS and clan SRMs ?
Clan srms have same slot and tonnage advantage exactly same than with streaks why you don't talk about this ?
Maybe because in scout mode you dont see lots of srms stormcrows?


2,5 tonns 2 slots for clan ASrms6
4 tonns and 3 slots for IS ASrms6

1,5 tonns 1 slots for clan Srms6
3 tonns and 2 slots for IS Srms6

I totally agree that Clan and IS weapons have better stats for clan SPECIALLY for streaks but its because of lore...

You want defeat a streak crow just take a ecm srms griffon 2N, pinpoint it while he can't shoot you under clan active prove range and at end eat the crow easy.

[Khobai]

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You want defeat a streak crow just take a ecm srms griffon 2N, pinpoint it while he can't shoot you under clan active prove range and at end eat the crow easy.

Griffin really doesnt counter a Streakcrow. Streakcrow can just take advanced sensor module/BAP and counter ECM easily enough.

Quote

I totally agree that Clan and IS weapons have better stats for clan SPECIALLY for streaks but its because of lore...

Yes but lore is also based on clans being outnumbered.

When you have an equal numbers situation like MWO, clans cant have significantly better tech.

IS SSRMs need to be just as good as C SSRMs

Edited by Khobai, 30 April 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Adamski]

Idealsuspect, on 30 April 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

What about IS and clan SRMs ?
Clan srms have same slot and tonnage advantage exactly same than with streaks why you don't talk about this ?
Maybe because in scout mode you dont see lots of srms stormcrows?


2,5 tonns 2 slots for clan ASrms6
4 tonns and 3 slots for IS ASrms6

1,5 tonns 1 slots for clan Srms6
3 tonns and 2 slots for IS Srms6

I totally agree that Clan and IS weapons have better stats for clan SPECIALLY for streaks but its because of lore...

You want defeat a streak crow just take a ecm srms griffon 2N, pinpoint it while he can't shoot you under clan active prove range and at end eat the crow easy.

For Standard SRMs, mechs have Quirks to help deal with the weight advantage that the Clans have, as well as IS SRM launchers have tighter groupings.

Clan SRMs have on average a 13% wider cone of fire, so they need to equip artemis to have groupings that are decent for fighting. (Artemis providing a 34% bonus REALLY overcompensates, but brings the tonnage and slot requirement to about equal).
But then the IS mechs have quirks like 15% less heat, and 15% faster cooldown, and 10% missile velocity.

Overall, I would consider standard SRMs much better balanced than Streaks at this point in time.

Edited by Adamski, 30 April 2016 - 08:02 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Overall, I would consider standard SRMs much better balanced than Streaks at this point in time.

One of the big imbalance problems is that Clan Streaks have a 360m range. While SRMs and IS Streaks only have a 270m range.

Not sure how to fix that. Maybe give IS Streaks 360m range too.

Edited by Khobai, 30 April 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[Foxwalker]

Right before the introduction of Clan SSRMs, Streak damage was 2.5 per missile. Of course if they left it that for Clan Streaks that would have been a disaster.

I had proposed that they just leave IS Streaks at 2.5, it would balance them some, but more importantly make them worth bringing. After the the nerf from 2.5 to 2, IS mechs that worked fairly well, like the Commando 2D, and others, stopped being effective. That .5 difference made them no longer viable.

Edited by Foxwalker, 30 April 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[Idealsuspect]

Adamski, on 30 April 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

For Standard SRMs, mechs have Quirks to help deal with the weight advantage that the Clans have, as well as IS SRM launchers have tighter groupings.

Clan SRMs have on average a 13% wider cone of fire, so they need to equip artemis to have groupings that are decent for fighting. (Artemis providing a 34% bonus REALLY overcompensates, but brings the tonnage and slot requirement to about equal).
But then the IS mechs have quirks like 15% less heat, and 15% faster cooldown, and 10% missile velocity.

Overall, I would consider standard SRMs much better balanced than Streaks at this point in time.

Lots of IS mechs haven't all thoses quirks in same time specially at 15% value. Just check battlemaster shadow hawk stalker and when they have thoses quirks they can carry 2 or 3 launcher ? when clan mech can boat it like summoner maddog jenner and for some boat in same time lasers like stormcrow timber

The real help isnt the IS quirks in fact ... real help which make IS mechs competitive is clan heat management recent huge nerf ( well 6 months ago now ).

And like i said

Idealsuspect, on 30 April 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

I totally agree that Clan and IS weapons have better stats for clan SPECIALLY for streaks but its because of lore...

And for finish clan srms4 don't need artemis, spread is almost same than is srms4
13% of a small value = small difference.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 01 May 2016 - 03:36 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

Khobai, on 30 April 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

One of the big imbalance problems is that Clan Streaks have a 360m range. While SRMs and IS Streaks only have a 270m range.

Not sure how to fix that. Maybe give IS Streaks 360m range too.

No cause we have to respect lore...
Streaks aren't balanced in lore ok also make this weapon really weak in MWO like lrms in fact ...
Major the spread and velocity, make aiming more difficult or lower damage, nerf bap jam.

This weapon is anyway anti-fun for lights and anti-skill for user i remember my streakcat with 10 KDR without any effort ( even when ECM was release ) also we can nerf it cause MWO

Quote

is the best esport game in the world

right?

[Khobai]

Quote

No cause we have to respect lore...

no. we dont. lore has already been violated.

so theres no reason to adhere to lore. game balance is way more important.