17 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

NOTE: Due to heavy spam/off-topic posts and a certain pair who decided to get into an UNRELATED ARGUMENT within this thread, I've reported a large number of the posts within this topic. Please DO NOT go off on random topics. As long as it has to do with balancing the weapons via ranges, other factors are also alright to include such as damage, heat, etc. or other various aspects of the game relating to weapon ranges such as map construction, mech designs, etc.

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So one of the mechanics I've hated the most in this game is the 'Maximum Range' that PGI added. It was complicated enough to balance all the weapon ranges as they were, but then suddenly weapons with set firing distances could shoot farther. Its part of the reason we have the sniping issue we do, as well as some weapon basically out perform the other choices because of it.

So, here's my suggestion, to rebalance the ranges at which weapons can reach at maximum range. For an example I'll just go with regular and ER lasers to get the idea down.

So lets take current laser stats:
(note - I included IS ERSL/ML even though they aren't yet in the game for future balance place holders, numbers are probably off, I used a fraction system to guess the IS ERs range based on the Clan weapons)
(note2 - X-Pulse would be the IS equivalent of Clan ER pulse lasers, which also are not in MWO and not included here)

IS
SL - 135/270
ML - 270/540
LL - 450/900

(ERSL - 167/334)
(ERML - 324/648)
ERLL - 675/1350

SPL - 110/220 (I think this should be bumped up to 120/240 or 125/250 personally)
MPL - 220/440
LPL - 365/730

Clan (For simplification purposes, the Clan's Pulse Lasers are basically ER due to the nearly 2x base range)
ERSL - 200/360 (already a bit of what I'm talking about here)
ERML - 405/688 (^)
ERLL - 740/1480

SPL - 165/297
MPL - 330/561
LPL - 600/1200

and modify them on this principal: ER Lasers use more energy to create a farther reaching weapon, in TT/previous games this was a single range, one maximum range the weapon could fire at for full damage. So let's say that the idea in MWO was to further the 'effective' range (full damage) but the cost is that the weapon's maximum range drops quicker.

For this example we'll say that the ER lasers result in +50% maximum range while the standard lasers stay at +100%.
IS
SL - 135/270
ML - 270/540
LL - 450/900

(ERSL - 167/251)
(ERML - 324/486)
ERLL - 675/1013

SPL - 110/220
MPL - 220/440
LPL - 365/730

Clan
ERSL - 200/300
ERML - 405/608
ERLL - 740/1110

SPL - 165/248
MPL - 330/495
LPL - 600/900

So now let's take a per-weapon comparison and see how they stack up to one another with the new ranges.

SL - 135/270
(ERSL - 167/251) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERSL - 200/300

ML - 270/540
(ERML - 324/486) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERML - 405/608

LL - 450/900
ERLL - 675/1013
CERLL - 740/1110

SPL - 110/220
(SXPL not included!)
CSPL - 165/248

MPL - 220/440
(MXPL not included!)
CMPL - 330/495

LPL - 365/730
(LXPL not included!)
CLPL - 600/900

While retaining their ranges for full damage, the weapons are reigned in and the gap in the amount of damage ER lasers do at extreme ranges is lessened. Each weapon system would need to be independantly tuned by category (i.e. lasers, ppcs, ACs, etc) in order to finish balancing them but this would reduce the gap between ER lasers still doing massive damage in their maximum range and create real trade off reasons between them and standards while also mitigating the massive range advantage Clans start with and with which IS quirks overcompensate for.
(ERSL - 167/251)

Edited by MauttyKoray, 28 April 2016 - 07:04 PM.

[cazidin]

So, the short version of this is that Clans get a greater optimal range but only 50% maximum range, as opposed to the Inner Spheres 100% maximum range for lasers. I'm not opposed to that idea and it certainly does make them different but personally I think that a simple balance change is in order.

Increase IS laser range to about 70 or 80% of Clans rather than 50% and reduce the C-LPL range significantly. Also reduce the C-ER LL burn duration.

[Khobai]

The problem is theres nothing in MWO that functions like the range penalties in battletech.

In battletech when you fired weapons at their max optimum range you suffered a +4 penalty to hit.

In MWO you can fire out to your max optimum range with ZERO PENALTY and not only that you can fire beyond your optimum range upto the maximum range.

Long range combat was hard in battletech. Its way too easy in MWO.



They should change how damage dropoff works. Instead of damage drop off starting at optimum range the damage dropoff should start off much sooner. And instead of being linear it should be exponential. So long range would suffer a bigger dropoff than medium range. And extreme range should suffer a bigger dropoff than long range.

So for example, short range could be a 0%-19% damage dropoff, medium range could be a 20%-39% damage dropoff, long range could be a 40%-79% damage dropoff, and extreme range could be an 80%-100% damage dropoff.

That would better reflect the range penalties in battletech

Edited by Khobai, 28 April 2016 - 11:00 AM.

[TheLuc]

Kudos to Khobai, you got the right idea !

Players abuse the ability to Alpha strike and as in lore, it is supposed to be a last resort move or a coup de grace from the pilot. Alpha strikes should just plain shut down the Mech regardless of heat dissipation capacity, like a Firing System Overload, you still can override it at your own risk, lets say you do actually overload the Mechs Firing Systems then you run around unable to fire for the rest of the match. Also could be good replacement for ghost heat.

PPC weapons should shut down BAP, ECM, crosshairs and radar, like a EMP effect for a few seconds ( like 3 seconds) PPC would be back as the king of energy weapons.

[cazidin]

TheLuc, on 28 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

PPC weapons should shut down BAP, ECM, crosshairs and radar, like a EMP effect for a few seconds ( like 3 seconds) PPC would be back as the king of energy weapons.

An annoying mechanic is not a good mechanic. PPCs just need a little less heat and a little more velocity, say another 2-300 M/S and they'll be good.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

If not something more complicated as Khobai, just decrease range to +50%, instead of current 100%. That alone would change a lot.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I woulda just given all weapons 20-25% more base range over TT values, buffed armor by 50% of TT values added in a slight CoF mechanic and aim time mechanic and made Alpha striking a last ditch effort sorta thing.

Running the mech on high heat woulda been highly detrimental to your health, I would have pilot penalties for keeping the mech at high heat, assaults would move more like the Mauler, while the Lighter mechs would move more like a mastered Warhawk.

I would have a slight reticule sway based on speed of the mech, with skills that reduces sway at higher speeds, ever so slightly. There would be advanced Gyros that reduce sway even further, never removing it, but making it so you can sorta fight while moving at higher speeds. Nothing like the LIght mechs running around at 115kph endlessly spamming their 6 SPL perfectly....

Best firing results would be found in hitting R on the target, which would reduce alot of the aim time constraints on the mech, as well as reduce movement sway, since the mech's targeting computers have something to lock onto and the stabilizers and stuff can finally start working. The best accuracy would be found in firing single or double weapons, based on power of guns. Gauss Rifles would be the least accurate and produce the most aim time bloom and most accuracy bloom when fired in pairs. PPCs would be behind that with AC20, AC10, ERLL, LL, LPL.

Gameplay would be slower, more methodical, allow for more movement since every time you move out of cover, it is met with 1 or 2 lasers that might skim over your mech, rather then 5 lasers coring you out.

I would have other things that increase accuracy, never to pinpoint, but allowing for a degree of improvement. It would feel more like playing Mechcommander with Ace pilots rather then this PPFLD stuff we have now.

[IQcreditscore]

NO!

Random damage drop off %'s and beyond this range a laser might curve RNG effects are BAD. BEYOND bad. The more RNG entered into a game to "balance it" takes more away from the skilled players.

Go play wot and have rng ruin your day. Random numbers generator in a game like this is just crap. It does nothing to add to a game except make it a lottery ticket every time you input a command as to what you will get.

[Carl Vickers]

Personally id prefer to take away the max range off lazor weps and just have optimal. This game is fast becoming camper warrior online from 500 meters with lazors cause it is easy mode.

Except for the 4x4, brawling is going away and as soon as you poke your head out you get 2 mechs dealing 100+ points of damage and you lose a third of your mech.

TBH this game is no where near as much fun as it used to be atm.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 28 April 2016 - 03:48 PM.

[jaxjace]

Reduce all lasers back to TT damage values, Increase duration for all lasers across the board. fudge heat.


Increase PPC velocity to 1500ms increase ER to 1800ms

Reduce Gauss cooldown back to where it was

Tighten SRM spread

Speed up LRMS to 1500ms

Decrease AC2 Cooldown add in cooldown module

HOLY JUMPING JENNERS SOMETHING THATS NOT A LASER VOMIT IS ACTUALLY USEFUL!

Edited by jaxjace, 28 April 2016 - 06:34 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Really guys? Barely a post of constructive feedback and you snowballed into this mess?

Okay so, about that response...

cazidin, on 28 April 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

So, the short version of this is that Clans get a greater optimal range but only 50% maximum range, as opposed to the Inner Spheres 100% maximum range for lasers. I'm not opposed to that idea and it certainly does make them different but personally I think that a simple balance change is in order.

Increase IS laser range to about 70 or 80% of Clans rather than 50% and reduce the C-LPL range significantly. Also reduce the C-ER LL burn duration.

First off that end of your post, keep in mind the IS don't have all of their ER lasers yet. Take a look at the spread for Larges:

LL - 450/900
ERLL - 675/1013
CERLL - 740/1110

The trade off between LL and ERLL is more damage and range at the cost of higher heat and longer duration. This is also true in the same respect for IS and Clan, with Clan having more damage and range at the cost of higher heat and duration over the comparable IS laser. My point was to reduce the excessive spread of the MAXIMUM RANGE (you know, where we're getting hit at 1000m with 3 (C)ERLLs that are doing considerable damage still) so we don't have the issue like we were with Clans hitting people with ERMLs at the LL range and IS not being able to contend with their own MLs.

Let's look at the MLs again:
Before
ML - 270/540
(ERML - 324/648)
CERML - 405/688 (^)

After
ML - 270/540
(ERML - 324/486) <-(Will probably need higher base range)
CERML - 405/608

Now to modify it so something at a better range, the IS ERML would still follow the +50% max range.

After - Modified
ML - 270/540
(ERML - recommend either 375/563 or 380/570)
CERML - 405/608

While the IS ML is still lacking in the optimal range, it would make up for it in the lesser heat and duration. The biggest problem, and I continue to say this even though people DONT FRIGGIN LISTEN, is that MWO is set in a period where IS tech WAS INFERIOR to the Clans. It wasn't until IS developed technology such as the other ER lasers, UAC sizes, and more that they were supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with the Clans finally.

The ER Med/Small, UAC2/10/20, and more are missing from MWO because of its point in time, they're the step up that are supposed to be balanced with Clan tech, NOT the STANDARD lasers. In the interim, and to make weapon ranges function better however, I believe a system like this would help create less disparity between the EXTREME ranges that the maximum range system causes.

[MauttyKoray]

Also

NOTE: Due to heavy spam/off-topic posts and a certain pair who decided to get into an UNRELATED ARGUMENT within this thread, I've reported a large number of the posts within this topic. Please DO NOT go off on random topics. As long as it has to do with balancing the weapons via ranges, other factors are also alright to include such as damage, heat, etc. or other various aspects of the game relating to weapon ranges such as map construction, mech designs, etc.

[SplashDown]

If IS want better ranges than there weapons should do way more heat.

[Scout Derek]

MauttyKoray, on 28 April 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Also

NOTE: Due to heavy spam/off-topic posts and a certain pair who decided to get into an UNRELATED ARGUMENT within this thread, I've reported a large number of the posts within this topic. Please DO NOT go off on random topics. As long as it has to do with balancing the weapons via ranges, other factors are also alright to include such as damage, heat, etc. or other various aspects of the game relating to weapon ranges such as map construction, mech designs, etc.

You don't have to worry about doing such or saying such, this is what we volunteer moderators are for. next time, just fling a PM to me about something like this should it ever happen again?

What a mess, I've cleaned up everything until I've fully taken the time to understand what the situation is here

[SuomiWarder]

Snipers going to whine, and all the anti-anti convergence people, but since you got a penalty to hit at the long range bracket in the source game why not let weapons lose convergence in that bracket. Now shooting your six ER Large lasers one at a time in succession makes sense. Getting your fresh shoulder blown off at 900 meters by one shot from one enemy would not happen right away. A "sniper" weapons like ER PPC or Gauss backed by a bunch or closer ranged weapons like med lasers would start to make sense as a load out.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FLINTCOIN, on 28 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

NO!

Random damage drop off %'s and beyond this range a laser might curve RNG effects are BAD. BEYOND bad. The more RNG entered into a game to "balance it" takes more away from the skilled players.

Go play wot and have rng ruin your day. Random numbers generator in a game like this is just crap. It does nothing to add to a game except make it a lottery ticket every time you input a command as to what you will get.

Every game has RNG to a point, this game has none. FPS have tons of skill and still have "RNG" of sorts, they have CoF and weapon recoil and there is plenty of "skill" involved there. They are also more fun. This game suffers for not having enough RNG honestly. The whole, alpha strike **** truly ruins this game. You take a huge *** assault mech and do anything but camp behind a building, and the first mech you come across rakes you over with 4 ERLL and before you can even register whats happened, your CT is stripped. You all talk about twisting, but by the time you even really register you've been hit, the damage is done.

This game feels like some twisted, shooter version of DDR, rather then a battlemech game. You gotta somehow manage to balance dancing like a ballerina between the shitstorm of Laser vomit and actually getting in a shot or 2 yourself. Not at all a Battletech game..

[Karl Streiger]

Interesting read. Hope we are talking just about lazors because hiting targets at extreme range isn't an issue for Laser

I didn't get the underlying issue - do you think ER-Largers deal to much damage at a specific range or does laser have to much range in general?

Because it would be much better to run just the short range bracket instead of the long range bracket before damage drop off happens.
So ~ 1/3 of current effective range but x6 maximum range: without tweaking just the TT values
Example:
Small Laser 30/180
Medium Laser 90/420
Large Laser 150/900
ER Large Laser 210/1260

Ok game would much better if we could remove the linear damage drop of and use a logarithmic damage drop off (because TT range brackets and damage/probability fall of logarithmic - correction used 3rd order Polynom )

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 April 2016 - 12:18 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

SplashDown, on 28 April 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

If IS want better ranges than there weapons should do way more heat.

Its not specifically that. Its about the 'maximum range' mechanic PGI added to the game, which was originally 2x the 'optimal' (before MWO nothing shot past this range) but has been modified for some weapons. Right now the 2x maximum range creates ridiculously extreme ranged weapons (such as the ERLLs, both Clan and IS) and there is very little trade off for taking a standard IS lasers (specifically speaking of the larges).

This would also work towards 'future proofing' power creep for later weapon systems (mostly lasers, I haven't done the math for other weapons yet) and create a 'trade off' for taking one or the other. Standard lasers would have lower damage and range but less heat and duration, while ER lasers would gain increased damage and range but at the cost of also having higher heat and duration.

Scout Derek, on 28 April 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

You don't have to worry about doing such or saying such, this is what we volunteer moderators are for. next time, just fling a PM to me about something like this should it ever happen again?

What a mess, I've cleaned up everything until I've fully taken the time to understand what the situation is here

Thanks, wasn't aware I could just send a PM to one of you, hence the use of the report tool.

@Karl Streiger -

Initially yes, I haven't done any math for other weapon ranges (like ballistics, ppcs, etc) but I hope to make a pass over their ranges and see how it would affect the overall range spread for weapons. Its possible something like a 50% max range would favor better range play than the current 100%, and I have to say I wasn't aware of this but IS LBX has a 200% max range...okay then.

It may come down to a similar thing as the standard versus ER lasers between IS and Clan though, something like IS at 75% while Clan would be 50% for the max range on ballistics.

Like I said I haven't played with them yet and crunched numbers so I don't want to throw out any solid "I think this would work" statements for those systems.