19 replies to this topic

[Monodominant]

*repost
I am not here to toot my own horn (though I am pretty awesome and the 2016 tournament horn sounds AWESOME) but I had a great PUG vs Organised group experience last night.

Like everyone, as soon as I saw that we are facing a 10 man premade (and I guess 2 PUGs or perhaps they were all on their TS) I got a shiver. It was already 3.30am (yes I am a night owl) and didnt feel like getting stomped for my last match of the night.

So amidst some complaining 'oh we will get stomped' I decided to take charge. I, a new player with less than 2 months playing this game and a total of 15 mechs, decided to drop call and push every single one of those PUGers to at least put up a fight.

What happened was magical. We didnt just put up a fight. Somehow people actually listened... they listened to the in game VOIP mind you of a random guy they didnt know. One two others also stepped in and called targets or gave directions when I was dead and by god we smashed them

I have no idea if BWC is any good or not... I know they have been around a long time and while maybe we just gave a blood nose to their junior team, what matters is the moral of the story. Take charge or follow the drop caller... be flexible and sacrifice yourself if need be for the good of the team.

Now, sure, luck is also important. I am sure if we had faced one of the PRO MRBC teams we would have most likely lost. But dont give up just cause you see a big number of Unit tags in the opposing team. Fight till your last mech and try your best... and maybe, just maybe you will also walk away with 800k CBILLS after a 25 minute match.

To all the PUG pilots that made this happen. Good job and thanks for listening. To our great opponents, good job guys, you played well but we had luck and spirit with us.

[Coolant]

It's not that a 8-12 man can't be beaten, they can, but it's very rare. I guess you can take heart you won one, but most of the time you won't in a PUG even with VOIP.

What would help immensely for the long-term health of the game is those units that have lots of players determine within their own ranks not to flood the Quick Play and Faction Play ques with 8-12 mans. But, they would rather be selfish and stomp PUGs.

[Monkey Lover]

Looks like you qnd 4 others did most the work. Goodjob , Bwc is a good unit but not a comp unit. Over all you had 12 unit players. This wasn't a pug team for real pugs they're basically not beatable.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 29 April 2016 - 01:12 PM.

[Ultimax]

Sorry but premades are in fact unbeatable.

When two premades meet each other in the queues, neither one of them can be beaten, and the server just crashes.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Doesn't count. Clan Wolf is a joke in MWO...

[dervishx5]

Ultimax, on 29 April 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Sorry but premades are in fact unbeatable.

When two premades meet each other in the queues, neither one of them can be beaten, and the server just crashes.

NS faced off against MS on Thule and this happened:

[oldradagast]

Nobody ever said they are unbeatable, but statistically a significantly larger, organized team has a huge advantage over random PUG's, casuals, and small teams. That is what people are - rightly - complaining about when tossed into the shark pool when their little 2 or 3 many buddy group face-checks an 8+ man team. And don't even get me started on Faction Warfare, a laughable game mode that basically requires casuals as cannon-fodder!

I grow very tired of people trying to counter factual, general statements with singular instances that prove nothing. Just because "something happened that one time that differs from the norm" does not mean that the norm is suddenly not true. People are not obligated to hang phrases in like "in nearly all cases" in front of factual statements, like fire is hot, water is wet, and large coordinate teams in a game have a huge advantage over small, uncoordinated teams and will most likely win the vast majority of games.

[Y E O N N E]

Not unbeatable...




...But it really has nothing to do with pre-mades, per se, and has everything to do with coordination. People in a unit tend to be better coordinated, ergo, it makes it look like premades are unbeatable. But...it's entirely possible to have superior coordination as pugs; only less probable.

[Amsro]

Depends entirely on the compatibility of the players, this includes premades.

Not everyone has the same ideas or playstyle, you will find very different 12 mans depending on the players logged in at the time.

I wouldn't assume a pug team could beat a 12 man, but I also wouldn't assume an easy win, nor a guaranteed one.

Edited by Amsro, 29 April 2016 - 03:01 PM.

[Davers]

In many cases premades are just a group of pugs who drop together and drink and socialize while playing Big Stompy Robots. Its the modern equivalent of meeting up with friends and gambling for change.

[Lostdragon]

https://youtu.be/BoGUKM9xd7M

[TLBFestus]

You have obviously never played my group of merry gentlemen. I assure you we are wonderfully easy to beat most nights.

[Lykaon]

Coolant, on 29 April 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

It's not that a 8-12 man can't be beaten, they can, but it's very rare. I guess you can take heart you won one, but most of the time you won't in a PUG even with VOIP.

What would help immensely for the long-term health of the game is those units that have lots of players determine within their own ranks not to flood the Quick Play and Faction Play ques with 8-12 mans. But, they would rather be selfish and stomp PUGs.

There is another way to look at this.

What you see as pug stomping is actually nothing more than cooperative game play.

Seriously think back and remember. All of the loses you have playing against 8-12 man premade groups. How many of those had anyone calling the shots? Seriously how many? 20 percent maybe less?

In those few rare examples of someone calling the drop how well did your team follow orders?

The actual truth of the mater is simple very very simple.

If a team coordinates well and has a solid strategy and executes sound tactics while playing to a solid strategy and follow sound orders from a drop caller if they lost, it was because the opposing team played better and earned the win.

There is no need for larger organizations to police themselves or limit their potentials just because so many other players do not wish to apply equal levels of effort to win.

Do you want to win? Then organize.

You do not deserve to win if you do not apply equal effort. It's really that simple. I can think of no valid argument to counter this simple truth of competitive gaming.

What is a successful premade?

12 players with access to a VOIP system following a plan.

What is a 12 player pug group?

12 players with access to a VOIP system without a plan.

If you want equality make a plan and execute it.

if you want to fall back on the old excuse of " Puggies can't follow a plan" then join a unit. If you don't want to join a unit but you want to win without meeting equal levels of effort that units apply to their victories then maybe you should be asking PGI to make you a participation award cockpit item.

You can go look at that instead of asking for a free handout.

[PerfectDuck]

Forget all these haters trying to downtalk the achievement of taking down a premade as a pug group. It is impressive work. I am glad to see posts like this one. PUGs working together and communicating should be the norm instead of such a shameful rarity in MWO.

Edit: Just to be clear, my main stance is wishing there were fewer pick-up groups altogether and people would use faction hubs and teamspeak channels to co-ordinate all of the time.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 29 April 2016 - 10:41 PM.

[Monodominant]

Ok,

Let me clarify something.

I am not saying beating a premade is EASY. I am saying its doable.

A premade vs premade is a hard match (well, assuming the units are on par). I am not expecting that a PUG vs a Premade would be easier for the PUG. It shouldnt be.

As many have said, FW requires more coordination than a QP match because there are objectives and because often enough the premade you are facing will be a bit coordinated to start with. I imagine a PUG going against a premade should try doubly hard as you have strangers whose playstyles not matching vs a little less strangers who have probably dropped together multiple times and might know what drop decks everyone else is bringing etc.

So sure, premade vs PUG is going to be hard for the PUGs...

BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

And if people who go to play FW realise they need to act as a team and either volunteer to be the drop caller or listen to the drop caller it would become less uncommon / rare.

At the end of the day this is NOT a failing of PGI. PGI cant take your hand and MAKE you collaborate. They shouldnt and they dont have to. Units also shouldnt gimp themselves to make it easier.

But... I am sure that most players enjoy a tough but fun match more than a stomp. You need to be very sadistic to actually enjoy a 48 vs 10 or just have no respect for a challenge. Sure, you will get more money, more xp and more faction points but it wont be as fun or memorable. Close games have been the most memorable for me for the past 2 months of playing MWO.

The same night I played the match above I also had a match with 6-7 CBR1 guys vs a 7-8 man unit of RGCB (I think, could have been another Ghost Bear unit). We crashed their first 2 pushes and people started joking about how they stood no chance etc. On their third push we also stomped them but they got 3 gens and most of the turrets. Their last push was pretty desperate and they actually killed Omega. The score was something like 42-18... and we lost! It was crazy fun though and it gave a lesson in humility too. My point is that I bet those guys enjoyed that match more than if they had just dropped vs a group of uncoordinated people and stomped them.

People need to realise that FW is for team play. NOT UNIT PLAY... but TEAM play. You cant drop on Invasion match and do whatever you want. You cant drop and expect to be carried. You ruin the fun of others and your own fun. If you are an experienced player then take the reigns... lead those newer or inexperienced and do your best. Dont see the opposing team and immediately decide you will just give up and go for some kills to maximise your personal gains...

Or you can... and then you will waste 30 minutes only to come here and complain.


PS>

Thanks for the good comments to those that made them. By the way, as I told a guy who was bragging about his damage during the match... damage means NOTHING. Being a LOUSY shot and screwing the team can still be done by someone with high damage. If anything, focused fire on a specific mech part will do MINIMAL damage. Spreading damage around will not get a kill but WILL get high damage. Leaving an opponent with yellow components all around but not killing them can net you hundreds of points of damage... but it wont kill the mech killing omega or your team mate.

[Yosharian]

In Quick Play, sometimes it's possible if you're with good players.

In Community Warfare it's almost impossible.

[Monodominant]

Agree to disagree.

[DarklightCA]

Coolant, on 29 April 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

What would help immensely for the long-term health of the game is those units that have lots of players determine within their own ranks not to flood the Quick Play and Faction Play ques with 8-12 mans. But, they would rather be selfish and stomp PUGs.

Excuse me? Faction Warfare is designed for units and 12 mans. What part of a gamemode about planetary conquest where only planets can be conquered by units in a no match making environment where people don't get tonnage limits for dropping in groups screams solo play to you?

If you drop solo in Faction Warfare than you are choosing to fight 12 mans. 12 man's are suppose to be there and if you are honestly bitching about 12 man's than you are the one that is selfish. If you want to improve the long health of the game than stop solo dropping, join a unit and form a 12 man of your own as all the lone wolf solo pilots are dragging down the gameplay in Faction Warfare. It's perfectly fine in quick play where you are suppose to solo queue.

[Rattlehead NZ]

Done exactly this when paired with teams such as ARMD, xSRMx, N-71. All good guys and have turned the table on 8+ sized stacks.

Though when you get stomped because half of your team are in Urbies is just hilarious

[Tripzter]

Fact is 2 man groups should get put with random pugs.