139 replies to this topic

[Evgeny Bear]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 06:12 AM, said:

I somehow doubt that when Nicholas said "terminate Wolverine genes-sibkos" (which is bureaucratic for "murder their children, and your children, and our children for having traces of the same blood as the people I've sentenced to thead already") it was not child-murdering time in Nova Cats land, though (they would be certain to be next then). Still, clans' temperaments (and the degree of rotting, and we all know that "a fish rots from the head") varied from Clan to Clan indeed.


Well, same as Kurita has a strong feel of colonial Japan, Steiner pre-WW2 Germany and Davion the generic Anglo-Saxon (dare I say "American"? Let's not forget that the Cold War was still a thing when BT first came out) Poster Boys, the Clans' seem to be at least partly based on USSR of old on the political level. Let's see, in no particular order:

- strict class system, check (castes)
- lack of private property, everything belongs to the State and it's theirs to redistribute as they see fit, check (touman and trials of possession)
- cult of personality, authoritarian leader, check (Kerensky bloodline, later diluted)
- power consolidated in military's hands, check
- militaristic, expansionist empire, check
- show trials and purges, check
- propaganda, check (saying "honor demands it", meaning "I want your stuff")
- perceived moral superiority to the "outsiders", check
- believing that spreading own views and changing the world in its own image is a "mission", check

That's... quite a big list already, and while many current systems display similar traits, I suppose the Soviet Union would be the one with the biggest amount of "checks" here. I don't think the racism is theirs, though. That's all Sparta.

I hope you mean "how the 'West' have seen the Soviets".
Most of that points can also be seen in any of those Forces of the 80's, left or right.

But I must admit that most fictions of that time have their "red threat" like enemies...
I only say Klingons ^^

[CaveMan]

Wolfpack75, on 09 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

In terms of the game, I hated it. 3050/star league era tech was about as far as it should have gone. Those weapons had actual trade-offs. You could use them, and gain a bit of an advantage if you wanted to sacrifice somewhere else. Clan tech is just better. I get it, I understand the reasoning and why they did it. But it's just like, "Hey, here's a big ole easy button, all you people tired of getting whipped by better players, press this and you're set!"

Of course, that was only really a problem when people refused to play according to the lore. The Clans are always supposed to fight with one hand tied behind their backs, which is how the creators balanced them. Unfortunately they failed to make it a hard and fast rule, and so people ignored it all the time.

[Alex Wolfe]

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 06:30 AM, said:

I hope you mean "how the 'West' have seen the Soviets".
Most of that points can also be seen in any of those Forces of the 80's, left or right.

But I must admit that most fictions of that time have their "red threat" like enemies...
I only say Klingons ^^

I really hope you don't think that the picture of the WWII-Cold War end's Soviet Union is a myth. I'm not talking about the common folk of the USSR, but about their politics and policies. The American periodic movies are indeed exaggerated (and may lead people to think that "it couldn't have been bad!"), but read any history book about show trials, subjugation of the WWII's "allied" nations east of the Wall, Gulags or the rampant murder that was going on in the Communist Party itself, and you'll see. The reality is way more grim than the fiction here, trust me.

Ah well, so much for the off-topic. I suddenly feel bad for comparing perfectly serviceable piece of Science Fiction to real murder, sorry about that.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 06:49 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:

I really hope you don't think that the picture of the WWII-Cold War end's Soviet Union is a myth. I'm not talking about the common folk of the USSR, but about their politics and policies. The American periodic movies are indeed exaggerated (and may lead people to think that "it couldn't have been bad!"), but read any history book about show trials, subjugation of the WWII's "allied" nations east of the Wall, Gulags or the rampant murder that was going on in the Communist Party itself, and you'll see. The reality is way more grim than the fiction here, trust me.

Ah well, so much for the off-topic.

You don't have to tell my that, I already know it and don't have to read about it.
I just mean that all sides of the cold war used the System of suppression, if it is direct (violence, gulags and torture) or indirect (votemanipulation, psychological suppression and cause of hysteria in society), but youre right... thats off-topic ^^

so or so
Hail the Clans =P

[Thorqemada]

I did not like the Clans much, to me Battletech plays the best when lostech is still treasure hunted and mech and equipment works non-perfect, managing the lack of material making the Pilots skills even more inluential in the battle result.
I mean, when the Clans come suddenly everyone gets very quick guided missiles, targetting computers, one-hit-kill-weapons, cloaking technology, the industrial output is growing exponential and the whole thing becomes somewhat mundane.
Its no longer a game about skill, it becomes a game about bigger industrial output, bigger mechs, bigger weapons, bigger technological advancements - it becomes boring from the mechpilot viewpoint imho.

I understand the reason and its in the lore logical but is the beginning of the end bcs there is no escalation possible after the introduction of the clans and their superior technology and the only solution they had eventually was to destroy the ip to start over which i feel failed with that dark age stuff.

But MWO if successfull will have a dekade worth of gaming and that is quite a long time to go...

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 December 2011 - 06:52 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 06:50 AM, said:

so or so
Hail the Clans =P

I'll drink to that. Looking forward to having your Thor hauled back to the MFB with a salvage truck!

Thorqemada, on 09 December 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

But MWO if successfull will have a dekade worth of gaming and that is quite a long time to go...

Indeed, power creep is an ugly thing, no matter the game.

I hope with this reboot they'll reduce Clan Tech to prized, irreplacable artifacts (incompatible with IS tech, to boot) like it was supposed to be, rather than something us players were conditioned by previous games to take for granted. IS has tons of untapped potential to be explored, and this game might just be the fresh start it needs (before all the lore went to hell).

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 06:55 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

Its rather a Cougar or Kitfox but yeah

Mostly a cougar with some nice ATM 6 and 2 Clan ERLBL

Edited by Andar89, 09 December 2011 - 06:55 AM.

[Wolfpack75]

CaveMan, on 09 December 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

Of course, that was only really a problem when people refused to play according to the lore. The Clans are always supposed to fight with one hand tied behind their backs, which is how the creators balanced them. Unfortunately they failed to make it a hard and fast rule, and so people ignored it all the time.

Not often followed in the computer games either. Mainly because if they did, the AI would be at a huge disadvantage. Should be interesting to see how it's done in this. I would rather play in the Succession Wars, but if they can pull it off so it actually works well, I'm okay with it. Besides I'm Liao, so I'll leave it to the rest of you to deal with them when they get here.

[CaveMan]

Although the Clans became the "designated villains" in lore, it's worth remembering that there really are no "good guys" in the BattleTech universe. All the Successor States have practiced genocide, repression, subterfuge, etc., ComStar and WoB were always secretly plotting to take over the IS, and even the vaunted Star League abused the Periphery nations in a way that would make imperialist-era Europe's forays into Africa pale in comparison.

Even goody-two-shoes Victor Steiner-Davion engaged in some dirty tricks (the Joshua Marik impostor, for example).

[Alex Wolfe]

CaveMan, on 09 December 2011 - 07:42 AM, said:

Although the Clans became the "designated villains" in lore, it's worth remembering that there really are no "good guys" in the BattleTech universe. All the Successor States have practiced genocide, repression, subterfuge, etc., ComStar and WoB were always secretly plotting to take over the IS, and even the vaunted Star League abused the Periphery nations in a way that would make imperialist-era Europe's forays into Africa pale in comparison.

Even goody-two-shoes Victor Steiner-Davion engaged in some dirty tricks (the Joshua Marik impostor, for example).

That's precisely how I like it! The BT universe is all about greed and war, and war is ugly business, everyone is dirty - that's how it's supposed to be (although the Davion get pandered to by pretty much every game so far, WAY more than any other faction). Some call it patriotism, others call it treachery and murder, it's all perspective. Random acts of heroism, as well as random acts or horror are being committed by people on every side there, according to the human nature. It's a nice, believable universe with something there for everyone.

It's claiming that the Clans actually do have some sort of moral high ground that wakes up the Devil's advocate in me (Devil's... prosecutor? in this case?). RPing a dedicated Clan warrior is one thing, but actually claiming that they are God's gift to the misguided Inner Sphere is another, and I'm perfectly willing to dig out Clan dirt specifically, and serve it on a tray in such a case.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 08:11 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

But if we Clanners dig out dirt you only say "hey... thats us. Thats how the Inner Sphere works man"

[Alex Wolfe]

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 08:13 AM, said:

But if we Clanners dig out dirt you only say "hey... thats us. Thats how the Inner Sphere works man"

Yup! Because our dirt is out in the open and barely needs any digging, and it's the Clanners that tend to act self-righteous and holier-than-thou about theirs (no offense). You believe your own propaganda, that's what's so funny here!

The inner Sphere just goes "you hit me, I hit you back, I can't remember who started but BY GOD I WILL FINISH THIS".

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 December 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

Wolfpack75, on 09 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

In terms of the game, I hated it. 3050/star league era tech was about as far as it should have gone. Those weapons had actual trade-offs. You could use them, and gain a bit of an advantage if you wanted to sacrifice somewhere else. Clan tech is just better. I get it, I understand the reasoning and why they did it. But it's just like, "Hey, here's a big ole easy button, all you people tired of getting whipped by better players, press this and you're set!"

I definitely agree with this. Since most gamers (especially casual) either don't know how to or just plain don't want to RP the Clans correctly Clantech in most cases became just what was mentioned above, the "Easy Button". (Let me clarify that a bit, I don't have any TT experience so that may be a totally different crowd). It was good for storyline/lore/novels but as far as the game itself the extra power doesn't come with built-in balance.

[CaveMan]

Alex Wolfe, on 09 December 2011 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yup! Because our dirt is out in the open and barely needs any digging, and it's the Clanners that tend to act self-righteous and holier-than-thou about theirs (no offense). You believe your own propaganda, that's what's so funny here!

It's what makes playing a Clan character so fun. Playing an IS character is basically playing yourself in spaaaaaace, but with the Clans, if they're done right, their culture is so totally alien, that it's just fascinating. Honor and Bloodrights, and ancestor worship, all these tribal things that modern society has cast aside, are put front and center in Clan culture, but we still get giant robots!

[Evgeny Bear]

Yeah and in the End you have a never ending circle of violence consuming all your energy and resources.

Clanners reduce it in short, hard, drastical fought battles whit a clear end. And all the inner conflicts also work as motor of progress.
I see it like the Ecconomy, without competition you won't get any income or research done.

CaveMan, on 09 December 2011 - 08:21 AM, said:

It's what makes playing a Clan character so fun. Playing an IS character is basically playing yourself in spaaaaaace, but with the Clans, if they're done right, their culture is so totally alien, that it's just fascinating. Honor and Bloodrights, and ancestor worship, all these tribal things that modern society has cast aside, are put front and center in Clan culture, but we still get giant robots!

I love them as much as I love the Samurai with their honor code^^
Only thing what makes the Clanners bad, they act naive and not very flexible to addapt on situations which brings them into a lose situation. And thats why I like Clan Wolf ^^ they tend to make their warfare perfect instead be slaved to the Code in every single letter and rule.
But maybe I all get it wrong hehe

Edited by Andar89, 09 December 2011 - 08:26 AM.

[Dihm]

Aw man, I hoped someone would jump on me for invoking Wolverine!

[CaveMan]

Andar89, on 09 December 2011 - 08:22 AM, said:

Only thing what makes the Clanners bad, they act naive and not very flexible to addapt on situations which brings them into a lose situation.

The naïveté is part of what I like about playing Clan. They're idealists, in a way. Their ideals may be misguided, but they stick to them even when it puts them at a disadvantage, knowing in their hearts that they'll win anyway because they're born to the be the ultimate warriors. And if they die trying instead of winning, they died with honor and will be remembered.

[CaveMan]

Dihm, on 09 December 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

Aw man, I hoped someone would jump on me for invoking *********!

Strange, I cannot read one of the words in your post. A forum glitch, quiaff?

[Evgeny Bear]

CaveMan, on 09 December 2011 - 08:44 AM, said:

The naïveté is part of what I like about playing Clan. They're idealists, in a way. Their ideals may be misguided, but they stick to them even when it puts them at a disadvantage, knowing in their hearts that they'll win anyway because they're born to the be the ultimate warriors. And if they die trying instead of winning, they died with honor and will be remembered.

Well remembered.... I don't know. They are a society with shortened Lifespans (the Warriors) and often they only take the name and the Genes. I think they don't have time to remember the Dead. So I rather would like to see them tactical addapting from time to time, or at least expecting their enemies to act without Honor (what they do).
Like wasting a whole regiment of Jade Falcon Mechs by a simple stone boulder trap.... by Kerenskys Blood... they should have seen that comming if they are such supreme warriors. Its not only melee combat, it is also tactical advantage.

[Bernardo Sinibaldi]

They cost me about 200k in the first turn of my first game against them so I'm not overly fond of them! Our GM introduced them into a game with no background - all we knew was 5 mechs were approaching our dug-in company. First turn a light mech (Puma) sprinted towards us and managed to take my arm off with one shot despite me being well out of range (or so I thought). At that point my remaining small laser seemed somewhat inadequate so I made my excuses and left.

They were a major change and did cause all sorts of issues initially. The carefully balanced weapons and heat balance went out of the window and the clan mechs were just simply better. There was some power gaming initially, much as we see today, but our group stayed pretty sensible and didn't abuse the new tech too much. I know that wasn't the same elsewhere.

These days, I can take them or leave them. I would have liked to have had more time in MWO before the Clans arrived (a mid 3040s timeframe would have worked well for me) but I understand why they've gone the direction they have.

Edited by Bernardo Sinibaldi, 09 December 2011 - 10:10 AM.