137 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

pbiggz, on 01 May 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

Mods are currently suffering from a bit of an image problem, you might have noticed, because having to stop people from criticizing PGI, whether they are violating the CoC or not, is unpopular, especially when PGI is apparently ******** the bed, again. This is compounded by the feeling that some mods deal out unfair treatment to some members.

Im not trying to goad you into a fight here, thats why im not naming any names, but im trying to explain the issue from my perspective in the most diplomatic way I think I can.

In other words, when russ says something he most definitely should not have, and people want to discuss it, and what it means for the game and the community, and the threads get shut down wholesale, its seen buy and large as an attempt to clamp down on dissent, not an honest attempt to keep the forums clean, even if that is what it is.

good point, and I don't disagree with you at all, however, I'm probably one of the few mods that would be merciful to stuff like that. I believe you remember. (in fact that thread is still going on oddly enough) we were on different terms, and then I shifted views, I didn't shut anyone down or anything, I let you explain your point and you changed me to your side. I won't go into detail about what happened when I was discussing with another person in there and completely changed their viewpoint, but it's pretty annoying but obvious the argument was for nothing because of what was said in the end.

enough of that...

but for why they think Russ is wrong, go ahead, explain why you think it's wrong! but you shouldn't have to vipalte the CoC just to do so! it's like during a protest, and police are having to come in because the troublemakers are causing problems by fueling the two sides to fight each other by breaking or destroying buildings, anyone can tell that's wrong.

that's how I see it, I'm probat slipping a bit in the point but I still see why and what's going on.

Not all mods are bad either, nor are we perfect, but some of us aren't descrimatory against others, we just follow the CoC. and if people can't take the time to calmy assert their situation and talk to us like normal people, then how can we hope to change the mods image of some around the community here?

also, we can keep talking about this a bit, it does concern the state of the forums here, but let's be good about it and not derail.

[Roughneck Cobra]

Im off bed anyway, only popped in see if anything good was going on to find Russ has flipped off the hands that feed.

Burning sensations.

Edited by Stryker Ezekiel, 01 May 2016 - 08:24 PM.

[TheBlackMegadeus]

Still waiting for a reason to post in the forums.
let me know if we find it.

[pbiggz]

Scout Derek, on 01 May 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

good point, and I don't disagree with you at all, however, I'm probably one of the few mods that would be merciful to stuff like that. I believe you remember. (in fact that thread is still going on oddly enough) we were on different terms, and then I shifted views, I didn't shut anyone down or anything, I let you explain your point and you changed me to your side. I won't go into detail about what happened when I was discussing with another person in there and completely changed their viewpoint, but it's pretty annoying but obvious the argument was for nothing because of what was said in the end.

enough of that...

but for why they think Russ is wrong, go ahead, explain why you think it's wrong! but you shouldn't have to vipalte the CoC just to do so! it's like during a protest, and police are having to come in because the troublemakers are causing problems by fueling the two sides to fight each other by breaking or destroying buildings, anyone can tell that's wrong.

that's how I see it, I'm probat slipping a bit in the point but I still see why and what's going on.

Not all mods are bad either, nor are we perfect, but some of us aren't descrimatory against others, we just follow the CoC. and if people can't take the time to calmy assert their situation and talk to us like normal people, then how can we hope to change the mods image of some around the community here?

also, we can keep talking about this a bit, it does concern the state of the forums here, but let's be good about it and not derail.

When russ says our feedback is not needed, what people hear is "we are not listening to you anymore". In my opinion this has been the case for a long while, but now some other people are coming to that same conclusion.

This does not mean all forum input is useful, for example, COF proposals are often riddled with issues, but to say across the board that our input is not needed simply degrades the forums and insults the posters who use it. When people are rather a bit miffed at this perceived insult, i am not surprised, nor should you be, and closing their threads will only serve to embolden them. To carry the protester metaphor a bit further, its like authorities firing on protesters to suppress demonstrations, most often, it has the opposite effect.

If you dont believe me, just look at what happened to our last community manager.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 May 2016 - 08:26 PM.

[Scout Derek]

pbiggz, on 01 May 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

When russ says our feedback is not needed, what people hear is "we are not listening to you anymore". In my opinion this has been the case for a long while, but now some other people are coming to that same conclusion.

This does not mean all forum input is useful, for example, COF proposals are often riddled with issues, but to say across the board that our input is not needed simply degrades the forums and insults the posters who use it. When people are rather a bit miffed at this perceived insult, i am not surprised, nor should you be, and closing their threads will only serve to embolden them. To carry the protester metaphor a bit further, its like authorities firing on protesters to suppress demonstrations, most often, it has the opposite effect.

If you dont believe me, just look at what happened to our last community manager.

good examples of some threads that still could be discussed would be the Ultimate Mech Discussion thread, or the discussion about the resizing of the Blackjack.

as for PGI saying what they have said, I think they wanted to make it clear, that they won't be accepting a majority of what the community says considering what and how we argue here.

as for the previous manager, I'll explain in the next quote.

[Scout Derek]

Imperius, on 01 May 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

Reference: Nikio Snow vs Community 2013

That's how I feel now, anyway as for the reason I post in the forums. I'm telling you why I don't play your game and eventually the reason I'll stop supporting you.

PGI managing reddit was a bad ideal from the start. if you have your own forum for the game, just use your own forums, let the community decide if they want to make something like that over there.

and what he said... no moderator or CM should have ever said. that's disrespect to the highest point possible, it'd be me saying "all your opinions are crap, and thus are crap, and thus you should go post in reddit with your crap."

I have in no way done this so far, I haven't struck down people because they disagree, but they WILL get removed if they decide to violate the CoC to try and argue a point. all of you know this, it's simple as talking to a cop, you don't talk crap to them, you treat them with respect....

otherwise they're not just going to give you a ticket for running that red light.

[Khobai]

Quote

Im off bed anyway, only popped in see if anything good was going on to find Russ has flipped off the hands that

PGI flipped off the community a long time ago. thats not a recent development.

Thats why I vowed not to spend anymore money on this game until they add the basic features Ive asked for. Entirely reasonable requests like being able to see your teammate's loadouts.

All they wanna do is ignore people and keep selling mech packs though.

[Navid A1]

Scout Derek, on 01 May 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yes, the frustration IS a slow process. However, keep in mind PGI is new to all of this, I'm surprised they even took the chance to rid of IGP, usually new companies new to this business would keep such another company to back them up. And I'm talking in the sense of developing and producing as well as marketing a game on their own, PGI has been known to do production of other games once in awhile, but never really published one on their own.

And yes, PGI does care, but what they don't care for, is the confusion and conflict. the anger and the accusations, the falsification and the unknown. When two sides collide, and PGI cannot sate both, that's when they start ignoring us, because the two cannot compromise no matter what. IT's a matter of their choices, it's come down to the wire and they've had enough, right now this last TH was a statement, moreover this is what I believe it translated to:

"We've had enough of the community suggesting what we should do. Stop fighting, because we're tired of hearing what we do is right and what we do is wrong. Stop the complaining, and start the feedback. We're going to push through with things whether you all like it or not, and we'll adjust accordingly as is."

As for making them notice, yes, that's the only way nowadays considering those back in beta scared them off due to the bickering and anger and frustration from the community.

And yes, I know you can, I'm well aware of that.

As per say, for the forums, I've already stated it. Tina our CM has been busy with all the meetings PGI has had, but she has done some good if you've already forgotten, remember the Haiku's with free premium time? Or how about the weekly creation thing? She's just been busy with PGI that she hasn't had time to work with us as she used to back then. As for good suggestions, she does, back to what I was saying, she hasn't had time.

As for why Paul hates machine guns... maybe he doesn't, maybe he hates the fact that he can't balance them without causing an exploit.

I believe a lot of the fighting here is a result of the developers' absence!
A lot of good suggestions (as perfect as they might seem) might have technical implementation limitations. Staying close to the community may help to find workarounds for them.
Only when they choose to ignore, there is potential for a toxic environment.





An example regarding that specific MG case:

This was the justification for the "nerf" to the machine guns: (its from more than 2 years ago)

Bryan Ekman @ ATD 35 said:

CCQ 3: Why is Machine Gun damage so low?
A: Partly due to the nature of how MGs work in the TT rules, partially due to how we chose to make it useful. When equipping a MG, keep in mind that it is not meant to burn through armor but is very useful for tearing up internals (crits). Bumping MG damage will turn it into a laser that can be kept on with no heat penalty until it runs out of ammo. Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas! We are still investigating balance of the MG but don’t expect any significant increase in damage.

The laser he speaks of in that statement is a small laser that does 0.75 damage.
The thing that baffles me is that in his example the spider needs to hold the MG on the specific "back of an Atlas" for a full 10 seconds... 10!.. from point blank!
And somehow, we have jenner-IICs and Oxides MURDERING the said Atlas in 2-3 salvos... without needing to keep the target in their sight... and without having continuous face time.
That statement can only be from someone who just looks at numbers and have ZERO gameplay experience.
THAT is why you need feedback from the community.

However, further feedback from the community is outright ignored!, no matter if it is here, twitter, reddit, or anywhere else!... for 2 years.
They just want you to sh*t up.



And this is just one case!

Same goes for large LRM rack spread numbers.

[Scout Derek]

Imperius, on 01 May 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

I post my opinion and defend my position, until actual insults are made I'm not breaking the COC in my eyes. When my posts go missing and never once am I given a notification it comes of to me as censorship. This is the part the feels like niko is back.

The current COC leaves too much grey area for interpretation. Basically after my experiences these past few months I understand the COC as this. Our mods can do what they want and it will always be right. If you run into a group of people and they disagree with you the way to silence them is to ban together and report the user. I do not feel welcome in these forums anymore and at this point I doubt that will change. The damage has been done, the your feedback is not important just added the icing on the cake and that's that. I'm hoping Doom 4 will be enough to pull me away from my BT addiction. After all I don't even know why at this point I'm buying mech pack after mech pack in a game I play once a month on average it seems.

there's a reason why you were given what you were given Imperius, for the sake of both of us, we aren't going to delve into that. didn't I say we were going to keep this on the rails? we're going off a bit, but I'll state that you were violating the CoC quite a few times, and more, which I can't say for the sake of you and me.

as for the shadow removal, there should and will be times where we remove them in order to talk to each other if we're not unsure, it's not that we do it on purpose, but we do remove it for a reason, which brings me to another key thing:

we moderators need a automated system which notifies the user of their topic being removed. I know other forums have this, and i plan on making this a priority as well.for the sake of both the moderators and users here. it shouldn't take long considering there's already part of it being done; related to the multiple participants function when sending a PM.

hmm, so that makes a couple things in my list;

-Ask to make a automated system to notify a user if their thread has been removed/locked/deleted.

- ask to Improve CoC to remove grey lines and then some.


those were a few, the rest I wrote down somewhere on a word document.

hmm...

it's going to be a interesting week tomorrow.

[adamts01]

PGI does an absolutely **** job of working with the community. A good example of what they did was the mech resize poll. I didn't participate but I feel there was a great selection of mechs decided upon. Then they do their own thing and decide to **** up the blackjack, after finally getting it dialed in. Of course we're pissed. As for the forums not representing the player base, maybe they should have an ongoing poll section next to the start button. Something like "these are 4 feasible changes we can implement to fix high alphas, vote on your favorite 2." include abullet points for each. That would save time and money for them instead of programming a wildcard like ghost damage just to have it reversed. Plus, it would be an honest majority of the community that supports the decision. Example could be "keep alpine as is" "remove alpine" "change spawn locations" or "remove candy mountain". I think something like that would be good for everyone. Right now there's no communication and everyone is pissed.

[Scout Derek]

Navid A1, on 01 May 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

I believe a lot of the fighting here is a result of the developers' absence!
A lot of good suggestions (as perfect as they might seem) might have technical implementation limitations. Staying close to the community may help to find workarounds for them.
Only when they choose to ignore, there is potential for a toxic environment.





An example regarding that specific MG case:

This was the justification for the "nerf" to the machine guns: (its from more than 2 years ago)


The laser he speaks of in that statement is a small laser that does 0.75 damage.
The thing that baffles me is that in his example the spider needs to hold the MG on the specific "back of an Atlas" for a full 10 seconds... 10!.. from point blank!
And somehow, we have jenner-IICs and Oxides MURDERING the said Atlas in 2-3 salvos... without needing to keep the target in their sight... and without having continuous face time.
That statement can only be from someone who just looks at numbers and have ZERO gameplay experience.
THAT is why you need feedback from the community.

However, further feedback from the community is outright ignored!, no matter if it is here, twitter, reddit, or anywhere else!... for 2 years.
They just want you to sh*t up.



And this is just one case!

Same goes for large LRM rack spread numbers.

I think it roots back to when they were around too.

I think everyone was a little too aggressive towards them. PGI was new to the business, and had someone with them.

when they did that, that was a red flag for us already to them, it's like in real life, talk mean to a person, you think they'll want to be around you if they keep doing it? hell no! I wouldn't want to be around people who talk crap about what I did, I would prefer them to tell me that it doesn't work or needs to be tweaked, not people who, per say, yell "fix this piece of **** game, it sucks and needs a lot of tweaking".

in your eyes, you think you want people like that talking to you near you, let alone to see what they say?

sorry, but I had to go on a bit of a run there.

as for experience, yeah, some of them don't know, because, like I said, people weren't smart to think that they are actual people who actually care about how people talk about them and what not and left.

if they did come back, they'd probably be very pissed, and very ignoring of some of us, which I can understand.

we need to also show evidence, not word evidence, but actual substance, videos, that show so.

maybe then would they might take a slight interest. but who knows now, it's been so long and so much has happened over time.

if I got a nickel for every thread about this game needing fixing, I could probably buy all the mech packs here and then some.

adamts01, on 01 May 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

PGI does an absolutely **** job of working with the community. A good example of what they did was the mech resize poll. I didn't participate but I feel there was a great selection of mechs decided upon. Then they do their own thing and decide to **** up the blackjack, after finally getting it dialed in. Of course we're pissed. As for the forums not representing the player base, maybe they should have an ongoing poll section next to the start button. Something like "these are 4 feasible changes we can implement to fix high alphas, vote on your favorite 2." include abullet points for each. That would save time and money for them instead of programming a wildcard like ghost damage just to have it reversed. Plus, it would be an honest majority of the community that supports the decision. Example could be "keep alpine as is" "remove alpine" "change spawn locations" or "remove candy mountain". I think something like that would be good for everyone. Right now there's no communication and everyone is pissed.

this has been mentioned about making a poll vote in-game. I've mentioned it, and others have mentioned it.

hopefully with what I see and hear I can come up with something, to start getting some new bridges going between you, me, and them.

[White Bear 84]

Navid A1, on 30 April 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

I mean, the forums is largely abandoned.
Communication and feedback is taking place over at twitter and reddit.

All hail the twitter overlords!




<---------------------

o7 Navid

Edited by White Bear 84, 01 May 2016 - 10:13 PM.

[HellJumper]

Reason is to get flaming topics going on and then grab pop corns...

[Scout Derek]

HellJumper, on 01 May 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

Reason is to get flaming topics going on and then grab pop corns...

you forgot the fact that there's no flames going on...

and that you left your microwave back at home. and the fact you took the light butter instead of extra butter bag.

Edited by Scout Derek, 01 May 2016 - 10:23 PM.

[Navid A1]

Scout Derek, on 01 May 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

I think it roots back to when they were around too.

I think everyone was a little too aggressive towards them. PGI was new to the business, and had someone with them.

when they did that, that was a red flag for us already to them, it's like in real life, talk mean to a person, you think they'll want to be around you if they keep doing it? hell no! I wouldn't want to be around people who talk crap about what I did, I would prefer them to tell me that it doesn't work or needs to be tweaked, not people who, per say, yell "fix this piece of **** game, it sucks and needs a lot of tweaking".

in your eyes, you think you want people like that talking to you near you, let alone to see what they say?

sorry, but I had to go on a bit of a run there.

as for experience, yeah, some of them don't know, because, like I said, people weren't smart to think that they are actual people who actually care about how people talk about them and what not and left.

if they did come back, they'd probably be very pissed, and very ignoring of some of us, which I can understand.

we need to also show evidence, not word evidence, but actual substance, videos, that show so.

maybe then would they might take a slight interest. but who knows now, it's been so long and so much has happened over time.

if I got a nickel for every thread about this game needing fixing, I could probably buy all the mech packs here and then some.



this has been mentioned about making a poll vote in-game. I've mentioned it, and others have mentioned it.

hopefully with what I see and hear I can come up with something, to start getting some new bridges going between you, me, and them.

You know, i agree with that. You will never make your point by insults, and trash talking.
I think one thing that PGI did wrong was setting their visions too high without considering their capability. When they started to ignore and isolate people who asked about some of those promises, it lit the fuse.

A good part of this community always talk with numbers and evidence. Painting the community with a same brush do (did) not look promising.

I'm certain even people who have a short temper do not have bad intentions. Responding with reason, setting rules and avoiding emotional outbursts are the key against toxic behavior... and they are doing the exact opposite.

[HellJumper]

Scout Derek, on 01 May 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

you forgot the fact that there's no flames going on...

and that you left your microwave back at home. and the fact you took the light butter instead of extra butter bag.

thats why i havent posted....

will crisps work instead of pop corns? no need for a microwave...

[Afuldan McKronik]

http://www.dyadicpar...the-pgi-shuffle

PGI is not new to game development. What they ARE new at is producing a good product.

[pbiggz]

Afuldan McKronik, on 02 May 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

http://www.dyadicpar...the-pgi-shuffle

PGI is not new to game development. What they ARE new at is producing a good product.

Not a bad read. In the olden days you would have been instant shadow deleted, scout Derek ought to at least get credit for not acting like THAT.

[Afuldan McKronik]

pbiggz, on 02 May 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

Not a bad read. In the olden days you would have been instant shadow deleted, scout Derek ought to at least get credit for not acting like THAT.

For posting something thats a good read and makes a little sence concerning Russ' attitude regarding players now?

Does he expect us to have nothing but positive feedback and blow X amount of $ every month because HE thinks the state of the game is good?

That is a disturbing attitude, and no wonder so few Founders are seen in game anymore.

[Tordin]

Few founders?? I see them almost every match, blues, oranges, golds and those red stars phoenix guys? I swear theres at least over 100 of them.

Edited by Tordin, 02 May 2016 - 07:28 AM.