101 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

I remember being the catalyst for that war. Mech Serbia ftw.

Ah the Tenchi. Fun times. Fun times. To be fair to NBT though, Mektek's attitude leading up to that event was pretty not okay.

Edited by dervishx5, 02 May 2016 - 07:52 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

dervishx5, on 02 May 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

Mektek's attitude leading up to that event was pretty not okay.

That could be said throughout their existence though, they seemed to perpetually have an antagonistic relationship with the community and especially those that wanted to help.

[dervishx5]

ASPERGERS.

That excuse was thrown around more than random deaths in Game of Thrones.

In the end they just had the attitude of "we are the only ones who have the tools and talent so you have to do what we say". That changed though.

I just can't help by draw some parallels here. The attitude isn't as obvious but its there.

Edited by dervishx5, 02 May 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

*quality* and bugs? performance? you know slapping together something beautiful doesn't means it will be playable by the majority of gamers, Theres a lot more than just making a nice looking map.

Of course.

A map would have to be built to certain specs so that objects/ridges/indentations would be just high enough to allow high mounted torso weapons to shoot over them. Distances between buildings and hills would have to be within tolerances so that jump jet equipped mechs could get to certain areas. And there is a certain flow and balance to maps that separate the good ones from the great ones.

All that stuff is basic and doesn't need to be mentioned.

My question is more along the lines of what the specific reason for developers avoiding community based volunteer contributions in terms of maps and content is.

Its not a serious question, I probably wouldn't participate in that type of program even if there was one. But I do love the MW/BT genre and would like to see it succeed and grow.

If it were possible that a community made map could save us from some of the maps in Faction Warfare, which sometimes seem designed to be sadistic chokepoint after sadistic chokepoint to make things harder for new players and make it easier for coordinated teams to utterly and absolutely destroy them -- who could argue with that?

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 02 May 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Of course.

A map would have to be built to certain specs so that objects/ridges/indentations would be just high enough to allow high mounted torso weapons to shoot over them. Distances between buildings and hills would have to be within tolerances so that jump jet equipped mechs could get to certain areas. And there is a certain flow and balance to maps that separate the good ones from the great ones.

All that stuff is basic and doesn't need to be mentioned.

My question is more along the lines of what the specific reason for developers avoiding community based volunteer contributions in terms of maps and content is.

Its not a serious question, I probably wouldn't participate in that type of program even if there was one. But I do love the MW/BT genre and would like to see it succeed and grow.

If it were possible that a community made map could save us from some of the maps in Faction Warfare, which sometimes seem designed to be sadistic chokepoint after sadistic chokepoint to make things harder for new players and make it easier for coordinated teams to utterly and absolutely destroy them -- who could argue with that?

.

1) Might be that they expect the community to try and **** back on them, by asking for payment for said maps.
2) Might be that they expect the community to only want community maps, which would make their map designers basically jobless.
3) Might be that they are afraid the community would make better maps than their paid map designers. See #2.
4) Might be that with community made maps, they would have a flood of people asking for server code, which would invalidate their reasons for microtransactions. Why play the official servers when the community servers are truely F2P and might be balanced differently than official servers.
5) They might not like the idea that with community made maps, community made game modes would surely be the next logical step, and that these community game modes be more fun/challenging/rewarding than the 6 modes they have.

[Barantor]

First, MWO is about as far from MMO as TF2 is, so I don't know why folks even say it is.

Second, if HBS puts out a quality Battletech game that folks play with more consistency with this one then PGI will be scrambling to make MWO more lore-like to get back the whales that like the mechs but don't like the game.

We'll see if the apocalypse comes with that or not, it's kinda interesting to me because I know the IP will live on long after all these companies are gone.

[dervishx5]

Also Quick I just realized I called you guys CSJx.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Afuldan McKronik, on 02 May 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

1) Might be that they expect the community to try and **** back on them, by asking for payment for said maps.
2) Might be that they expect the community to only want community maps, which would make their map designers basically jobless.
3) Might be that they are afraid the community would make better maps than their paid map designers. See #2.
4) Might be that with community made maps, they would have a flood of people asking for server code, which would invalidate their reasons for microtransactions. Why play the official servers when the community servers are truely F2P and might be balanced differently than official servers.
5) They might not like the idea that with community made maps, community made game modes would surely be the next logical step, and that these community game modes be more fun/challenging/rewarding than the 6 modes they have.

I would guess its something similar to that. Like the executive and proprietary approach tesla motors has with its products where they lock consumers out of everything humanly possible to a point where you can't really fix or work on your own car without their approval.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 02 May 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Mawai]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

PGI isn't avoiding us much, in fact PGI does quite a good job interacting and listening with the community. You don't find tha many other devs doing this outside the Indy dev market.

Sure MWO isn't free of issues, but most things we rant about are on quite a high level.

Odd. Not my experience at all. If they are listening they certainly provide little or no feedback that they are doing so.

Compare the PGI interaction to that provided by HBS with their new Battletech game. Similar IP, very similar community, night and day differences in the types of interaction and engagement with the community.

[Deathlike]

dervishx5, on 02 May 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

It's just- :deathlike sigh: -it's just that I hate longing for the days of Mektek with the threats and temper tantrums. At least they got the community involved.

Hey.. it's not a drunken Russ sigh.

I didn't even get to read this thread thoroughly and I'm greeted with that.

/sigh



You'll never convince PGI on some aspects that their mistakes are real.

At this point, it is easier to mock every bad decision preemptively and expect disappointment to reach new levels (like... every patch).

It's hard to provide constructive criticism when PGI's reaction to feedback is closest to "I do what I want" in any random match with PUGs.

There's plenty more sighs where that came from.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

I would be glad if PGI tended to compartmentalize themselves from the community and player feedback in general because in my professional and honest opinion some of those most convinced they know how to fix things are crazy. (I could be crazy too, I admit that.) As things stand, this is a good game & all of the worst things about it and all of the worst development decisions were made as a result of the whining and complaining people did to get weapons, jump jets, mechs and other things nerfed. Some blame PGI but I tend to look at the ridiculous amount of negative complaining as being a prime factor.

The cure can often be worse than the disease. That seems to be a recurring theme here with everything from jump jets onwards, and if history repeats itself will include the new heat system in the future.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 02 May 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[Dudeman3k]

Just becuase I see the "But PGI is a small company" as an excuse for a poor product a lot... I'm going to de-rail that argument real quick.

That is as accurate as saying "But Timmy is a 4 year old, so it's not his fault he steals, vandalizes, and tortures animals"..... In this instance PGI being "Timmy".... Yes, hes small, young, and for the most part still growing... but that doesn't really excuse him for his poor actions (or in this case "poor product")

take it as it is.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 02 May 2016 - 09:55 AM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

I would be glad if PGI tended to compartmentalize themselves from the community and player feedback in general because in my professional and honest opinion some of those most convinced they know how to fix things are crazy. (I could be crazy too, I admit that.) As things stand, this is a good game & all of the worst things about it and all of the worst development decisions were made as a result of the whining and complaining people did to get weapons, jump jets, mechs and other things nerfed. Some blame PGI but I tend to look at the ridiculous amount of negative complaining as being a prime factor.

The cure can often be worse than the disease. That seems to be a recurring theme here with everything from jump jets onwards, and if history repeats itself will include the new heat system in the future.

Sure the mech combat is good in a quickplay teamdeath match kind of way but is that all that should carry this game? The game isn't much different than 4 years ago. There is no hook in this game after the rinse and repeat of skirmish ad nauseum. More mechs don't add anything new. Any player can adapt to the nerfs and minor changes (JJs, Gauss,etc.) that occur as balance tweaks if they really want to. What hook is there to keep people engaged? Faction play? Maybe for a masochist.

PGI made all the decisions here so you can try and blame those you consider whiners and complainers all you want, all blame fails on them for everything. If all we had to debate was balance and mechanics tweaks the game would be in a wonderful place but that isn't the case and isn't even the real issue people should focus on. MWOs problem is the lack of a sustainable hook. To many games do FPSer arena combat much better and faster paced. Without true MMO features MWO can't be anything but what it is now.

The survival genre of gaming is the direction I see most peoples interest going mainstream wise. A game like ARK is very engaging even in a very early stage of development. It is the definition of MMO. I think it would serve MWO well to tap into some core MMO staples to really get the player base engaged. Progression and customization are easy ways to do that, both of which could have been done much better in MWO. The target of focus seems to be in the wrong place concerning what direction MWO needs to go and it isn't because people complained leading to nerfs, it is much bigger than that.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 02 May 2016 - 10:58 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

GRiPSViGiL, on 02 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Sure the mech combat is good in a quickplay teamdeath match kind of way but is that all that should carry this game? The game isn't much different than 4 years ago. There is no hook in this game after the rinse and repeat of skirmish ad nauseum. More mechs don't add anything new. Any player can adapt to the nerfs and minor changes (JJs, Gauss,etc.) that occur as balance tweaks if they really want to. What hook is there to keep people engaged? Faction play? Maybe for a masochist.

PGI made all the decisions here so you can try and blame those you consider whiners and complainers all you want, all blame fails on them for everything. If all we had to debate was balance and mechanics tweaks the game would be in a wonderful place but that isn't the case and isn't even the real issue people should focus on. MWOs problem is the lack of a sustainable hook. To many games do FPSer arena combat much better and faster paced. Without true MMO features MWO can't be anything but what it is now.

The survival genre of gaming is the direction I see most peoples interest going mainstream wise. A game like ARK is very engaging even in a very early stage of development. It is the definition of MMO. I think it would serve MWO well to tap into some core MMO staples to really get the player base engaged. Progression and customization are easy ways to do that, both of which could have been done much better in MWO. The target of focus seems to be in the wrong place concerning what direction MWO needs to go and it isn't because people complained leading to nerfs, it is much bigger than that.

Lack of focus. Lack of effort. Lack of taking into consideration the fanatical dedication of a fanbase for an IP. Proof of not having worked on one of the design pillars for the game until a different project was cancelled.

Changing a companys name but keeping the management exactly the same tends to lead exactly down the same path, except new investors who don't do their research get burned.

And yes, Founders ARE investors into this game. I doubt that without their money, this game would have never gotten past a chalkboard. This game only continues to keep PGI afloat as long as people keep buying mechporn with zero expectations on new gameplay aspects.

Its a damn good thing PGI isn't a publicly traded company, as Management would have been out the door, as soon as the stockholders realized that they were never originally going to follow through on the ideas that the Founders invested into.

[Roadkill]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

becaue starcraft is totally an MMO. dude? rly?

24 players does not an MMO make.

The Starcraft comparison is absolutely correct.

PGI can't monetize maps anyway - everyone must have all maps to avoid fragmenting the matchmaking queue - so why not allow for player-created maps?

[zolop]

http://store.steampo...com/app/220980/

http://steamcommunit...133356871287604



Player created maps would be a awesome part of MWO, as long as PGI has time to test them. They could be very specific in what the map qualities (in terms of amount of objects, dropoff areas, etc) needed. That would streamline the process somewhat.

The Crytech engine is currently free... They could do a trial run and say "post your maps on this thread, we will contact the first few to start a trial run of this and see to its validity"... Then they could ask to setup a hosting site like Dropbox or many others and let users (in the same email by PM) to drop in maps only, that file type, no other, Then post the exact specifications ... Really how hard is this? Hell I'll try and build a flay grassy plain with no all the same elevation in the cryengine...

PGI can keep its map designers, just every so often if a map looks really awesome and has the right specifications they can adjust it to work within MWO every now and then..

Edited by zolop, 02 May 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

PGI isn't avoiding us much, in fact PGI does quite a good job interacting and listening with the community. You don't find tha many other devs doing this outside the Indy dev market.

Sure MWO isn't free of issues, but most things we rant about are on quite a high level.

Someone doesnt remember the blackjack fiasco.

[Jun Watarase]

Paigan, on 02 May 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

No. Wait.

What my post expressed was:
You waltz in with absolute arrogance like you are god almighty in person and you alone know the definite truth (which, tbh, is a really simplistic one. And simplistic absolute truths are only expressed by people who ... you know ...).
So if there was any proof about low a intellectual level on the forum, it was my post about you :-).
I'm sorry if it was too subtle. Hope it's clearer now.

On a more constructive note:

I'm a software developer myself and let my tell a little from my experience:
- There are ALWAYS delays due to unforseeable details and/or minor human error. Things get late, are shipped unfinished, not properly tested. It's ALWAYS the case.
- One (meaning PGI as well) has to build upon a stack of third-party tools (e.g. engine) with their own problems, causing more problems for the actual development and it's not even the developer's fault.
- Yes, corps have to earn money. Yes, sometimes it's a little "minimum viability" in one corner or another. But that does NOT mean that corps are those evil monsters who don't care about their product or their customers. Things are just VERY complicated. And if one can't accept that, one is nothing more than a child.

I listened to the recent town hall a little bit.

My impression:
- Again, things are just much more complicated than we players (me included) perceive or think and Russ seems to be very motivated to find good solutions in the grand scheme
- I also had SOME (little) doubts if the decisions made are always the best (e.g. he said something like FW was meant to be some occasional commando mission between quick play matches or something like that. Well, then they should have done it differently and not in the way they did)


I have my frustration moments as well, but given my experience with such complicated matters, I settle with:
- If I did it, I had the same problems and would make just as many mistakes. I would do 1-2 things better, but 1-2 things worse, so in the end ... meh. It is what it is
- I'm happy that someone else does it for me and I can just login any play after 8 hours of similar problems. If some things are not as good as they could be, I'm okay with that.


But you my friend, are nothing but spewing spite and arrogant assumptions.

So again:
Nonsense thread. Next.

As a software developer, what is a real life situation that you have seen in which a company refuses to fix very simple bugs (e.g. typo errors) that take 5 minutes or less to do? If you look at, say, Bethsoft games, their games are full of those simple bugs that they never fix and support for their games are quickly abandoned because the community is expected to release unofficial patches instead.

An example of a pretty major bug that i found in New Vegas was that they had maps set to spawn enemies in the wrong level ranges. So instead of "the player is level 30, spawn level 30 enemies", they would spawn level 1-30 enemies instead. So a level 30 player in power armor would be running along and get attacked by a level 1 dog instead of a deathclaw or something. This was easily fixed by ticking a checkbox in the mod tools, and would easily have been spotted by testers asking "wait a minute, why are level 1 enemies spawning when i am level 50". Yet, it was never fixed. I can understand if it is some engine bug that would be really difficult or impossible to fix, but this is literally something that can be fixed by ticking a checkbox. I've always wondered why companies do this if not for reasons like "meh, we already got their money, who cares?".

Another example is how Disciples 3 was released with typos in the sound file names that prevented them from being played. That's a pretty major bug...sounds not playing for hundreds of units, spells, abilities, etc...yet they refused to fix it in any patch they released, even though an intern could have fixed the typos in an hour or two. Why would a company (if they really valued the product and customer) do stuff like this?

Edited by Jun Watarase, 02 May 2016 - 01:53 PM.

[Barantor]

Mawai, on 02 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Compare the PGI interaction to that provided by HBS with their new Battletech game. Similar IP, very similar community, night and day differences in the types of interaction and engagement with the community.

To be fair to some at PGI, Tina and Lauren on the streams they have been doing have interacted well with the section of the community that interacts with them.

The problem comes with the level of transparency that seems to be very erratic or ideas that are tried with the public and then fall to the wayside. The Dev blogs and vlogs, the old question answering that used to be on this forum rather than on town halls.

They've abandoned reddit since all the drama happened there for the most part and we have a few voices from PGI that come and tell us what's going on if the forums and servers are down.

There are some good points, but the biggest problem they have when interacting with the community is consistency.

I would love for PGI, HBS and Catalyst to be more hand in hand with each other so that we get a more unified Battletech experience, much like how Sony is now playing ball with Disney/Marvel with their movies.

Also I don't even know how many people here know about the PGI streams on twitch at all.....

[Afuldan McKronik]

Barantor, on 02 May 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

To be fair to some at PGI, Tina and Lauren on the streams they have been doing have interacted well with the section of the community that interacts with them.

The problem comes with the level of transparency that seems to be very erratic or ideas that are tried with the public and then fall to the wayside. The Dev blogs and vlogs, the old question answering that used to be on this forum rather than on town halls.

They've abandoned reddit since all the drama happened there for the most part and we have a few voices from PGI that come and tell us what's going on if the forums and servers are down.

There are some good points, but the biggest problem they have when interacting with the community is consistency.

I would love for PGI, HBS and Catalyst to be more hand in hand with each other so that we get a more unified Battletech experience, much like how Sony is now playing ball with Disney/Marvel with their movies.

Also I don't even know how many people here know about the PGI streams on twitch at all.....

Its hard to get mad at the people who dont have a say in how the game continues to develop. Its also not worth asking them how things are progressing, because they have no clue.

Open the PTS and try making minor(!) changes a little bit at a time, gather telemetry and feedback on it. Rather than blanket nerfing/buffing in huge amounts. Btw these small changes should be once a week.

PGI is the one who handled that badly. Noone elses fault.

Agreed. If they would communicate with the community a little better themselves... and not call the community opinions worthless. Hey buddy, is my COLD HARD CASH worthless too?

Would be wonderful. I would like mini's that I don't have to get a 3d printer for, for starters.

I don't think many know, or care.