57 replies to this topic

[0bsidion]

I have good games and bad games in my assaults, I don't really believe it matters what tier you're in. Although I do admit I started having fewer good games once I hit Tier 3 on my IS account, at least with my Mauler.

[Paigan]

KBurn85, on 04 May 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

This is pretty true, at least for me. In the other tiers, I had to ask others to stick with the assaults, and sometimes it wouldn't work.
[...]

First of all:
It's a common misconception that "one plays in tier X".
This is NOT the case.
Every match is a mix of players from different tiers (+/- 2 level IIRC).
Tiers are no magic door that opens up to a complete new level / community of players. It just means the enemy team will likely have a guy with your tier, too.

Second:
I'm Tier 2/1 for many months now, and still I have to write "stay with assaults" or "stay together" every dam time.
At least every time I care to do it.

[LordNothing]

i usually know my assaults well enough not to need support. fighting lights in an assault is one of my specialties. id rather the lights go get me intel so i can find a good place to set up the murder mill. one game i saw the entire light lance cover a zeus, a banshee and a gargoyle, mechs that really dont need support because of their relatively high speed and light fighting abilities. and what happened that game, all 3 assaults walked into a firing line because there was no intel. one got focused out right and the other two managed to get a kill before they died, 2 lights also died instantly upon poking the line. i was in a 4th assault, a mauler. with no support i took a shortcut in an effort to catch up to the assault lance and their support lights, and ended up on the enemy's flank, got 3 kills. i dont know what the heavies were doing that game, they were all dead before me, there were a couple mediums left.

information is ammunition and our guns were empty that game. also escort duty is really a job for mediums imho.

[TwentyOne]

Khobai, on 04 May 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

assaults are still way less viable than they should be compared to heavies.

the negligible armor increase assaults gain isnt worth the loss in speed/agility and massive increase in hitbox sizes.

CW illustrates the problem pretty clearly... you dont see people taking 2 direwolves and 2 mistlynxs. What you see is decks like 3 ebon jaguars and 1 stormcrow. Or 3 timberwolves and 1 mistlynx. Because ton for ton the heavies are much better.

The power curve needs to be readjusted so assaults are back on top. They cost the most in CW. So they should be the strongest mechs in CW.

Just the hitbox size ruins them. They are at most 25 tons more than a timber wolf, but even the small assaults are twice as large.

[Khobai]

Quote

To be honest, Warhawks aren't slow.

They are slow when everything else in your faction goes 90+kph

Quote

With the right application though some assaults can outperform heavies.

Assaults should not be situationally better than heavies. They should be OUTRIGHT better.

You pay more tonnage for them in CW so they should be undeniably better. higher cost = better. see how that works?

As long as CW uses tonnage as a currency then heavier mechs need to be better than lighter mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 05 May 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Assaults should not be situationally better than heavies. They should be OUTRIGHT better.

You pay more tonnage for them so they should be better. higher cost = should be undeniably better.

Or maybe they shouldn't encourage the arms race and every mech should be situationally better. Sorry you think the Assault should be the undeniable force on the battlefield, we had that before the re-balance with the era of the Whale and it wasn't great.

[Khobai]

Quote

Or maybe they shouldn't encourage the arms race and every mech should be situationally better. Sorry you think the Assault should be the undeniable force on the battlefield, we had that before the re-balance with the era of the Whale and it wasn't great.

the whale was never good in CW. dont know what youre talking about.

Again youre getting CW confused with quickplay. quickplay isnt relevant to the conversation because there are no tonnage limitations in quickplay. assaults dont cost more than heavies in quickplay.

the problem im talking about is in CW where assaults cost more than heavies due to dropdeck tonnage limits, but are substantially worse in overall effectiveness.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 04 May 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

of course, youre playing with a massive handicap.

so why wouldnt the skill cap be higher?

assaults need to be substantially buffed so heavies arnt outright better

particularly clan assaults because clan assaults are virtually unseen in CW. And clan heavies are used more in CW than all other weight classes combined.

Assaults are typically my best performing mechs in CW. And that includes my clan assault Warhawk, haven't ran a Dire in a while but it did well when I did.

[Haji1096]

Khobai, on 04 May 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

of course, youre playing with a massive handicap. so why wouldnt the skill cap be higher? assaults need to be substantially buffed so heavies arnt outright better particularly clan assaults because clan assaults are virtually unseen in CW. And clan heavies are used more in CW than all other weight classes combined.

Clan assaults aren't used in CW because lights in general are terrible and Clan lights are the worst subset of lights.

It makes way too much sense to take heavies in CW, its easier to stay together and the firepower advantage of an assault isn't that much more than a heavy.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 05 May 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

the problem im talking about is in CW where assaults cost more than heavies due to dropdeck tonnage limits, but are substantially worse in overall effectiveness.

And again I'm saying that has a lot to do with how bad the mode is, not the mechs themselves.

Khobai, on 05 May 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

the whale was never good in CW. dont know what youre talking about.

Just because you can't play it right doesn't mean it can't be good. If the Dakka Mauler sees use in CW, then the Dakka Whale isn't really a bad alternative for Clans, most people just suck at playing assaults so they stay away from them or have the perception that it is bad and never bother to learn how to play it. Either way, FW is crap, stop trying to bring it for balance suggestions. When they fix the mode then we can bring that up again.

[Mawai]

Khobai, on 04 May 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

assaults are still way less viable than they should be compared to heavies.

the negligible armor increase assaults gain isnt worth the loss in speed/agility and massive increase in hitbox sizes.

CW illustrates the problem pretty clearly... you dont see people taking 2 direwolves and 2 mistlynxs. What you see is decks like 3 ebon jaguars and 1 stormcrow. Or 3 timberwolves and 1 mistlynx. Because ton for ton the heavies are much better.

The power curve needs to be readjusted so assaults are back on top. They cost the most in CW. So they should be the strongest mechs in CW.

They are the strongest mechs. The greatest armor, the most weapons ... most dps usually ... least maneuverability.

People don't take three timberwolves and a mist lynx over 2 dire wolves and a 2 mist lynx because the dire wolf is weak ... they take it because the mist lynx is weak. If 2 dire wolves and 2 mist lynxs matched 3 timberwolves and 1 mist lynxs it would be because 2 dire wolves almost equaled 3 timberwolves ... in which case the dires would be OP.

In addition, timberwolves are much faster than dire wolves. CW usually involved some maneuvering and repositioning ... the timberwolf is significantly better at that than the dire whale. It doesn't make the whale weak ... it just means that its use is more situational.

As for the OP, try saying something in team chat about grouping up or waiting for the assaults ... I do that almost every match (except conquest) no matter what mech I am driving ... and it often makes a DIFFERENCE.

(When I am driving a light, I do not immediately run off to scout ... I wait about 15 seconds, suggest folks group up, wait for them to start moving and then move out ... at 150+ kph I quickly pass everyone anyway but at least this way 1/3 of the team doesn't start following me because they already decided to follow someone else).

Finally, the bottom line in every tier is really ... if you aren't actively working to improve team communication and coordination then you are part of the problem.

[DAYLEET]

Khobai, on 05 May 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

the whale was never good in CW. dont know what youre talking about.

Again youre getting CW confused with quickplay. quickplay isnt relevant to the conversation because there are no tonnage limitations in quickplay. assaults dont cost more than heavies in quickplay.

the problem im talking about is in CW where assaults cost more than heavies due to dropdeck tonnage limits, but are substantially worse in overall effectiveness.

Thats a CW problem not a battlemech problem. Adjust CW as needed but dont use CW as a balance tool.

[Dingo Battler]

Paigan, on 05 May 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

First of all:
It's a common misconception that "one plays in tier X".
This is NOT the case.
Every match is a mix of players from different tiers (+/- 2 level IIRC).
Tiers are no magic door that opens up to a complete new level / community of players. It just means the enemy team will likely have a guy with your tier, too.

Second:
I'm Tier 2/1 for many months now, and still I have to write "stay with assaults" or "stay together" every dam time.
At least every time I care to do it.

Nope, that's not the case. The MM looks for players at your tier first, for 1-2 mins. After that, they expand to +-1 tiers, and if they still can't find enough people, they look +-2 tiers. The next time you're matched quickly, ask around for everyone's tiers, ignoring the "tier 5 underhive" replies, you'll realise everyone else is your tier.

At least when you write "stick together", they will listen almost all the time. In other tiers, the light lance usually ignores you and bee-lines towards the enemy, or just NASCAR and outright ignore you, then you have those games where they'll start calling you an idiot, etc. The lower tiers were hell to play a dire wolf in, other than the seal-club factor.

I spearheaded 2 pushes last night, everyone pushed in with me, and people were shouting over VOIP "crab's moving in!" Didn't get any idiots shooting my rear armour out, didn't get my armour opened up, and everyone pushed in nicely with me. The last time I tried that in the lower tiers, people just stood behind me and shot out my rear armour, didn't push in, then spammed "L2P nub!!!!" on <All>

Edited by KBurn85, 05 May 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[Elendil]

• Assaults depend on their team the most.
  
• They require good situational awareness of their own position, their team's position, and the enemy.
  
• They are less forgiving, because if you make a mistake or don't pay attention you'll either waste the entire match trudging around the map, or get caught and torn apart.
  
• They require a decent knowledge of every map (moreso than any other class of mech).
  
• They are the primary target for the enemy, and the easiest to hit.

There are all kinds of reasons why assaults are usually not a good choice, but skilled players can overcome their weaknesses and make good use of them.

Newbies will start playing the game and buy the biggest mech they can, and it will work pretty well for them against other brand-new people (who aim for the center of mass, and spread their damage around).
But there's a graduation of sorts where they realize that assaults are actually the worst choice (for most people), and will move down to explore other classes (or ragequit).

I don't agree that they should be restricted by tier, but I think there should be mandatory training about role warfare and the different classes of mechs, and new players should need to try all the roles before being allowed to purchase their first mech. That way at least it's an informed decision, and they're not flailing around and trying to figure all that stuff out on their own.

[Dingo Battler]

Elendil, on 05 May 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

I don't agree that they should be restricted by tier, but I think there should be mandatory training about role warfare and the different classes of mechs, and new players should need to try all the roles before being allowed to purchase their first mech. That way at least it's an informed decision, and they're not flailing around and trying to figure all that stuff out on their own.

I think everyone should be forced to play assaults, get left behind on NASCAR, or get raged at, when they refuse to push, or everyone says they'll push, and you end up pushing alone. People need to understand how to work with them.

Assaults and lights are the trickiest to play. Assaults are the most punishing, but lights receive very little feedback. If you survive with sub-100 damage, most lights will think they did a good job, when in reality, only 300 and over is acceptable for a light.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Sorry you think the Assault should be the undeniable force on the battlefield

http://mwomercs.com/game

Take it up with PGI, they're the ones that claimed assaults should be doing the most damage.

[Escef]

Paigan, on 05 May 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

First of all:
It's a common misconception that "one plays in tier X".
This is NOT the case.
Every match is a mix of players from different tiers (+/- 2 level IIRC).
Tiers are no magic door that opens up to a complete new level / community of players. It just means the enemy team will likely have a guy with your tier, too.

KBurn85, on 05 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Nope, that's not the case. The MM looks for players at your tier first, for 1-2 mins. After that, they expand to +-1 tiers, and if they still can't find enough people, they look +-2 tiers. The next time you're matched quickly, ask around for everyone's tiers, ignoring the "tier 5 underhive" replies, you'll realise everyone else is your tier.

To the best of my knowledge, in the solo queue, Tier 1 never plays Tiers 4 and 5, and Tier 2 never plays Tier 5. So, for example, if you are Tier 3 you can be in matches with or against any other Tier, but if you are in a match with so much as a single Tier 1 player you are actually (one of) the lowest tiered in the match.

So, while the match maker will likely be judging how well you fit into various match configurations with people from various tiers, the actual match you end up in will only have a 3 tier wide spread of players (5-3, 4-2, or 3-1).

If someone has an official source that says otherwise, however, I'd love to see a link to it. (If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong. Only thing worse than being wrong is not correcting yourself when you are proven wrong.)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 05 May 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

Take it up with PGI, they're the ones that claimed assaults should be doing the most damage.

They can do the most damage, they just have to have support to do it.

[Khobai]

Quote

Clan assaults aren't used in CW because lights in general are terrible and Clan lights are the worst subset of lights.

arctic cheetah is the worst subset of lights? what?

clan assaults arnt used in CW because theyre slow and hit the same heat brick wall as heavies. it has nothing to do with clan lights being bad, because arctic cheetah is anything but bad.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[Paigan]

KBurn85, on 05 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

Nope, that's not the case. The MM looks for players at your tier first, for 1-2 mins. After that, they expand to +-1 tiers, and if they still can't find enough people, they look +-2 tiers. The next time you're matched quickly, ask around for everyone's tiers, ignoring the "tier 5 underhive" replies, you'll realise everyone else is your tier.

[...]

That's a rather smartass statement.
First you say "nope", then you explain the same process I did of mixing tiers.

Okay, in theory, one might get matched with purely same-tier people. But in practice, matches are mixed +/- 2 most of the time from what I get and what I experienced.

So thanks for the addition, but less contradictory smartassness would be appreciated.

Edited by Paigan, 06 May 2016 - 12:29 AM.