19 replies to this topic

[Javan]

I haven't played this game in quite awhile, but have been playing it for the last month or so with a friend of mine. I like the idea of scouting missions, but I feel like the win conditions for the gathering intel players are to lenient. I really dislike the fact that a single light mech can just bum rush the landing zone at the last second and win the game. I think a better system would be that the protectors could either possibly destroy the dropship, or at least contest the evac zone.

Another issue I've found are the reward systems for these missions. Yes, the goals for the gathering mechs are to avoid contact with the other lance, but the reward system only provides bonuses to those who actually engage the other team. Others have mentioned this particular issue... I just thought I'd bring it up again.

What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

[Bulde]

100% agree. The fact that light mechs can just hide until the last few seconds is pretty lame.

• It takes zero skill
  
• It does not encourage team play
  
• It does not encourage engaging the enemy team

Solution:

Allow the drop zone to be contested. All of the other game modes have this condition built into them...so if you are firing upon the enemy standing in the zone or if you are contesting by physically standing in the zone, this should make it so the opponents cannot get on the drop ship. They should have to either kill if you are on the drop zone or beat you there. I'm fine if a light gets to the drop ship before me. But if I get to the dust off point before him, I should be able to contest it. This would prevent all of the hiding going on.

4v4 game mode has not even been in the game very long and I (among many others) are already tired of the silly win condition whereby lights can just play hide and seek and then at the last few seconds sprint to the drop zone and win. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Please do something about this.

Cheers,
Bulde

Edited by Bulde, 09 May 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[Evil Tiki Tiki]

I like the idea about the drop ship being destructible. Also, the contesting idea is good till, while engaged, the enemy slips out of the drop zone immediately letting you win. Not so good. Say, contesting causes the timer to freeze. Just like Domination.

Back to the drop ship, since it can fire on enemy mechs, it should be taken out. Now once this happens, the match isn't over yet. The scouts have to then truck it to an alternate evac site, like the map edge or something, to escape. This gives both sides a chance to either escape or take out the scout.

Just an idea.

[ukju]

The fact the dropship zone fence blinks while occupying as a defender suggests that zones should be contestable like in other game modes. Consistency please.

Defenders should at least be rewarded with a chance to kill the scouts by finding the dropzone in the first place. The dropship does damage to defenders, it should have more reward for the risk.

Edited by ukju, 09 May 2016 - 07:02 PM.

[Bulde]

Evil Tiki Tiki, on 09 May 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Also, the contesting idea is good till, while engaged, the enemy slips out of the drop zone immediately letting you win.

Not sure I follow you. I wasn't saying let the defenders win condition change. I'm simply saying the people collecting intel should not be allowed to collect, then run off and hide and just win by stepping on the drop zone. If the enemy is standing on it, or shooting at you while entering it, they should not be able to get lifted out and win. I think we agree though that it should be like domination and every other mode that can be contested.

[slide]

You have been running around collecting data right. How about when you get to the dropship pick up zone you have to stay in the zone (and alive) for 5-10 seconds whilst you upload that data to the dropship. Could even make it a second for every data point collected.

1-data point 1 second
10-data points 10 seconds
etc

Also I agree with the notion of destroying the drop ship, with the caveat that it should shift position if it's taking fire or enemies dwell in the area to long. Being able to rush the DZ or camp it for a win should not be the only options.

Additionally give the dropship it's proper load out. This includes LRM's so a gatherer could bring a narc/tag and use the dropships LRM's to take out/drive off a few enemies

[p4r4g0n]

Instead of destroying the dropship, how about making it switch to an alternate extraction point if it takes X amount of damage? Re-positioning the dropship would re-set the timer.

This requires the scout to shift position thereby increasing the defenders' ability to detect and intercept?

This might also encourage a mixed lance composition, a little more weapon diversity (maybe) and playing a bit more tactically.

Caveat: Might not work well on smaller maps or if threshold damage is too low as it might be possible to keep the dropship re-positioning and re-setting the timer until the time runs out.

Edit: Ooops sorry just noticed slide suggested re-positioning as well.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 09 May 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[ArmandTulsen]

Bulde, on 09 May 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

100% agree. The fact that light mechs can just hide until the last few seconds is pretty lame.

• It takes zero skill
  
• It does not encourage team play
  
• It does not encourage engaging the enemy team

Solution:


Allow the drop zone to be contested. All of the other game modes have this condition built into them...so if you are firing upon the enemy standing in the zone or if you are contesting by physically standing in the zone, this should make it so the opponents cannot get on the drop ship. They should have to either kill if you are on the drop zone or beat you there. I'm fine if a light gets to the drop ship before me. But if I get to the dust off point before him, I should be able to contest it. This would prevent all of the hiding going on.

4v4 game mode has not even been in the game very long and I (among many others) are already tired of the silly win condition whereby lights can just play hide and seek and then at the last few seconds sprint to the drop zone and win. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Please do something about this.

Cheers,
Bulde

Highly disagree.

-Stealth takes a lot of skill. Effectively hiding and moving from grid to grid without being spotted isn't easy, even with ECM.

-A team of super-fast, lightly armoured lights can spread out to cap quickly, then spread out to hide and wait for the drop ship. That takes a degree of coordination and teamwork.

-This is reconnaissance. Conceptually, that means gathering intelligence and avoiding fighting for as long as possible.

[Bulde]

ArmandTulsen, on 09 May 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

Highly disagree.

-Stealth takes a lot of skill.

I was waiting for a post like this. Stealth does not take "skill". Sorry, it doesn't. Let's call it what it really is. You are hiding, then darting to the drop zone. That takes very little skill my friend.

ArmandTulsen, on 09 May 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

-A team of super-fast, lightly armoured lights can spread out to cap quickly, then spread out to hide and wait for the drop ship. That takes a degree of coordination and teamwork.

It takes zero coordination to hide and it takes no team work to hide. One light mech in a pug can win the match by hiding and reading a magazine while the enemy run all over the map looking for them, then run to the drop zone in the last 20 secs.

It's not team work, not coordinated, not interesting, and not fun.

ArmandTulsen, on 09 May 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

-This is reconnaissance. Conceptually, that means gathering intelligence and avoiding fighting for as long as possible.

I think most of the player base would agree, the "hide & seek" aspect of the game mode is not fun. If its not fun, it should be changed.

[ArmandTulsen]

Me: A, B, and C, because X, Y, and Z.

You: Nuh-uh.


So where are your arguments?

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 10 May 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[Javan]

Armand, if you want to blitzkrieg with light mechs for the intel points that's fine, but don't you find when you are on the protect side that there is little one can do defend against this particular strat. I don't feel we should debate the skill level it takes to run a stealth mech. That to me is pretty inconsequential. I more want to talk about balance of the win conditions to make the game mode more enjoyable for both sides with more interaction between the players.

Edited by Javan, 10 May 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[R79TCom1 Night Lanner]

I will admit, there is something satisfying about blasting a Pirate's Bane just as the timer reaches zero, but yes something needs to change in the game mode if just make the game more "real." It is not like DropShips have tractor beams to pull 'Mechs up or a transporter to beam them up. The DropShip has to land to get that intel.

I like the upload timer idea, actually it would be better to say that once the data is uploaded the mission is over no matter how much time is left on the DropShip leaving clock. Maybe say that if the uploading scout takes fire the count down stops, but I think that would tip the balance to much to the protectors; having a light 'Mech survive standing in a well marked, out in the open box for 10 seconds might be enough of a challenge. In addition, I agree with having the DropShip repositioning after taking X amount of damage is a great idea too, but maybe reduce the approach time in half. It is a common trope in BattleTech that DropShip captains do not like hot LZs and will leave "ground pounders" if they cannot protect the ship.

[Willard Phule]

If you're going to make the dropship destructable, you need to load it the way a Leopard (or Leopard C) is supposed to be loaded. They should have a lot more than just 12 lasers.

[IQcreditscore]

IF the timer stopped while an enemy mech was in the dropzone, then it would work. If the enemy only had to walk in it at the last moment the opposite of what you have now with light rushes would happen.

Also a dropship here marker for the defending side when the 1 minute timer at the end starts would not be unreasonable to help newer players who haven't memorized the alternate dropzone locations on each map.

I don't think making the dropship not fire it's lasers at all would be unreasonable either. It doesn't add any real depth to the mode and the way it works now encourages defenders to stand underneath where they don't get zapped. That's the one big contribution it has and on some maps can actually discourage players from seeking hiding lights in maps with close cover tot he dropzone.

[Commander A9]

Bulde, on 09 May 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

100% agree. The fact that light mechs can just hide until the last few seconds is pretty lame.

• It takes zero skill
  
• It does not encourage team play
  
• It does not encourage engaging the enemy team

Solution:





Allow the drop zone to be contested. All of the other game modes have this condition built into them...so if you are firing upon the enemy standing in the zone or if you are contesting by physically standing in the zone, this should make it so the opponents cannot get on the drop ship. They should have to either kill if you are on the drop zone or beat you there. I'm fine if a light gets to the drop ship before me. But if I get to the dust off point before him, I should be able to contest it. This would prevent all of the hiding going on.

4v4 game mode has not even been in the game very long and I (among many others) are already tired of the silly win condition whereby lights can just play hide and seek and then at the last few seconds sprint to the drop zone and win. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Please do something about this.

Cheers,
Bulde

While I do think the drop zone should be contestable, I have to disagree otherwise (even then, contesting the drop zone means there's no way to win the match without simply killing all the enemies, and then you have skirmish mode 4-man style; that or dropships are going to be souped up if such a change happens to avoid defenders camping the LZ in the first place).

I think it takes a really disciplined pilot to exercise guerrilla tactics and go for the objective rather than the kill, to evade detection, to avoid the enemy, and to win the match without firing a shot. It's still a legitimate strategy and Sun Tsu would applaud it.

In a Scout match, if I'm gathering intel, I don't need to kill you; I simply need to collect intel, and then get in the dropship at the appropriate time.

If that means evading the enemy, so be it.

Point is: If I win that way, I still win. Where is the "lack of skill" there? Because the scout teams who are SCOUTING don't play the game like a skirmish match? They're not supposed to.

If you're worried about that, well, hell, try a faster mech, faster rate-of-fire weapons, Streak missiles, getting on Teamspeak, drop with a team, focus fire, legging the enemy, etc etc etc.

Edited by Commander A9, 10 May 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[Bulde]

I think you're missing the point mate. I expected some people to chime in and say that the current win condition for collecting intel is "just fine". But I think the majority agree that its not. If I get to the drop zone, it should be contested. As someone else mentioned above, drop ships do not have tractor beams to pull up mechs, and drop ship pilots would not try and land in a contested area while the LZ is hot.

I guess hiding in a light on the very edge of the map behind a rock until the drop ship shows up is a way for people that don't know how to aim to "win" though.

[The Majority]

Bulde, on 10 May 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

But I think the majority agree that its not.

You are thinking wrong.
I clearly say that the non-fighting-intel-gathering light is a valid tactic.

Because remember the endless whining about how all game modes just feel like skirmish? Now you've got something different, so enjoy it and stop complaining that it's not like skirmish.

[Bulde]

I never complained about it. So I will complain about this.

Its a tactical shooter game. Skirmishing is part of the game. Not hello-kitty-hide-and-seek.

[ArmandTulsen]

TACTICAL.

TACTICAL shooter.

Not MINDLESS shooter.

Shoot, if it's advantageous or necessary (in scout mode).

[stocky0904]

Contesting the dropzone has only 1 effect. A lot less gather Intel wins. Because the 4 enemy stormcrows or whatever in that dropzone cannot be killed in time by the gather team. Autowin for the protect team. There is no more sense in finding and hunting down the gather intel team. Just wait till the dropship comes in and occupy the dropzone in the last seconds of the timer. GGWP! Thats the moment i stop playing the scout mode.