16 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Just a few thoughts about the LRM, taking account of this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...9-lrm-boats-op/, as well as my current experience against LRMs. When playing Assaults, LRM is quite annoying for me. Wall of text ahead.
Yes i am not a veteran, just 46 hours into the game, i'm practically a noob. Although I am aware of how easy it is to counter LRMS, via mass AMS and/or ECMs, or just plain covers, that which can be harder or easier depending on areas, like Polar Highlands' trenches being hardest as i find it. LRMs need lock on to fire, and they don't hit when you lose lock, making Radar Deprivation a must.
But still, it's quite annoying, especially when you have something as slow as Assaults, with rather slow movement speed. And it's not like you would be able to quickly run away against lighter mechs and avoid lock.
Sure, it's easy to take cover when you're a medium or light mech equipped with radar deprivation, but the slower you get the harder it is to evade those missiles. I've played with assaults, i find them the hardest to evade LRMs with, and i would argue that it is rather cheap and ****-move.
In my experience, as well as quite a few reads within the forum like: http://mwomercs.com/...sault-vs-heavy/
"An assault mech stands somewhere and says, if you want in, you have to deal with me.
An assault mech goes somewhere, and anything that is there has to leave or deal with it.
The assault mech picks the place of the fight. The enemy gets to choose whether or not to have a fight."
Which is an awesome words to live by. But shouldn't people be actively moving to evade LRMs? Doesn't that mean Assaults that hold ground are quite easy to spot and just rain missiles from afar?
One can say, "Just play with a faster mech", but shouldn't the game be balanced in all classes of mech?
Or with Assault's inherent immense armor, that should be enough. "Git Good", yeah i'm trying, "try harder", yeah, i get it, k. "They're the weakest weapons in high-tier you skill-less noob", i agree.
"Get better Mech", sure, okay, i'm saving for an XL 360 for my King Crab, or i could always fall back to my Timber-Wolf Laser-boat. I probably need to buy an Atlas for an ECM or something
"Once you get to the tier where everyone thinks LRMs are **** and aren't used, you could play better", I suppose so.
Although, what about a different take? It's annoying as hell with it's screen-shake.
What about instead of LRM 5,10,15,20, they're LRM 2,3,4,5 that shoots fewer missiles (5/10/15/20 to 2/3/4/5 missiles) but hits harder? Of course the missiles should be a bit more sturdy against AMS, and other adjustments if needed.
What if Assault Mechs have lots of AMS hardpoints? This way one can invest on Anti-Missile System more for anti-missiles. Though it requires investment in resources. Besides, it would take up space that could be potentially more ammo or weapons.
Or since i see this problem more on Assaults, what if assaults are less affected by missiles inherently? Either weaker damage, little or no screen shake, etc. They will still deal the same damage, but will just not disorient Assault Mechs.
Sprinting? What if Assault Mechs can Sprint like on other FPS games to quickly relocate, giving boost up to 80 KPH or to a different number, but they lose the ability to attack, or turn torso (or smaller turn), as well as it lasts only a few seconds.
That's just my thoughts for the moment, and it's kind of frustrating too. I might recant after more experience within the game, but so far that's just my thoughts.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 May 2016 - 11:29 PM.

[Dee Eight]

You've started with a premise that is wrong... LRMs do NOT need locks to fire... they need locks to track... they fire and work just fine without locks though if you know how to use them. They'll always just go straight ahead to the aimpoint of your hud, in an arcing trajectory. As long as your aim point is inside their maximum range, and outside the minimum (inner sphere's do zero damage under 180m, clans do increasingly less damage the further closer than 180), you can put missiles onto that spot. Its a great skill to have for shooting at mechs behind cover. Aim for the top edge of whatever they're behind, and let them eat LRM mail addressed "occupant".

[AWOL 01]

You may enjoy the ideas in this article:
http://metamechs.com...es/******-lrms/
(pardon the language)

Two things I would let you know:
1) You usually don't want to put an XL engine in an IS assault mech. The cost outweighs the benefits.
2) The reason LRMs come in groups of 5 is because that is how they are in canon.

I've been playing for years now so I'd be happy to help a new player. If you want to drop with me sometimes just add me in-game.

[VinJade]

@Dee
You are right about all of that with LRMs.
I am actually getting pretty good with nailing some targets from behind cover by dumb firing(no lock) them as I can hit annoying snipers who think they are safe just because they can hide themselves from radar and target locks and I take great pleasure when I actually manage to kill ER toting snipers.

Though I will admit I am not very good with Direct fire weapons lol.

@T6M
You think LRMs are bad? well snipers are worse more so with a mod or mods they use along with quirks.
no the problem are those that snipe with ER LLs and those almost game breaking Mods that are in game, you want to gripe about something gripe about them.

After all LRM Mechs are support machines, we soften them up and the more powerful machines finish them off, you see this throughout history, be it throwing spears to the invention of bows creating the archers.

So just think of them like that, a support unit with roots as old as there have been projectiles.

so maybe instead of complaining about LRMs as you had already stated have so many counter measures that you should think about weapons that hardly have any.

Edited by VinJade, 10 May 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

VinJade, on 10 May 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

@T6M
You think LRMs are bad? well snipers are worse more so with a mod or mods they use along with quirks.
no the problem are those that snipe with ER LLs and those almost game breaking Mods that are in game, you want to gripe about something gripe about them.

After all LRM Mechs are support machines, we soften them up and the more powerful machines finish them off, you see this throughout history, be it throwing spears to the invention of bows creating the archers.

So just think of them like that, a support unit with roots as old as there have been projectiles.

so maybe instead of complaining about LRMs as you had already stated have so many counter measures that you should think about weapons that hardly have any.

Did you not notice the part where it's about assault mechs? You know, the slow guys in the game that pack a lot of punch usually? That they are a lot more vulnerable to LRMs?You seem to have a lot more issues with ER-LLs that you somehow find the time to point to such direction specifically somehow, instead of keeping in the topic. You can always start a new thread if you're kind of butt-hurt with them, like me with LRMs vs Assault Mechs.

AWOL 01, on 10 May 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

You may enjoy the ideas in this article:
http://metamechs.com...es/******-lrms/
(pardon the language)
Two things I would let you know:
1) You usually don't want to put an XL engine in an IS assault mech. The cost outweighs the benefits.
2) The reason LRMs come in groups of 5 is because that is how they are in canon.
I've been playing for years now so I'd be happy to help a new player. If you want to drop with me sometimes just add me in-game.

Thanks i guess. The link's not working though. What about the part where the Assault Mechs inherently are not or less affected by Screen-Shake and/or damage?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 May 2016 - 02:49 PM.

[Elendil]

The game is supposed to be a big 'ol game of rock/paper/scissors, and assaults are particularly vulnerable to LRMs due to their large size and immobility.

It's not an accident or a bug or something... It's quite intentional, and just one of the mechanics that ensures assaults are rarely the best choice.

[The6thMessenger]

Elendil, on 10 May 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

The game is supposed to be a big 'ol game of rock/paper/scissors, and assaults are particularly vulnerable to LRMs due to their large size and immobility.

It's not an accident or a bug or something... It's quite intentional, and just one of the mechanics that ensures assaults are rarely the best choice.

That means I literally won't have a good time playing Assaults in the lower tier where players spam LRM boats.Although isn't light-mechs already anti assaults?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 May 2016 - 04:17 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

just pack AMS there are 3 assaults that can take double AMS and they just upgraded AMS Overload Module to deal increased damage instead of fire rate. The Battle Master 2C the Atlas - and the Stalker - can all take twin AMS. I find that if i dont take AMS i get hammered as it relatively unpopular most people prefer some more ammo or heatsinks. That said moduled twin AMS will shred a lot of LRMs.

I play mostly Assaults and always take AMS none of my assaults go without. Also try make 58 your lowest speed in an assault helps to keep up. And yeah XL is generally a bad idea on assaults. Particularly on the KGC its so wide on top that if your suffering from LRMs in it it will only make the problem worse. I pilot King Crabs, Zeus, Highlander, Mauler and Battle Master.

Also the Wolfhound 2B i think is ridiculous for AMS, 20% range boost and 10% to fire rate quirks, with modules is a LRM machine. 30% range boost, 10% fire rate and 40% damage boost from the modules. I take in CW as my light mech usually with 4 tons of AMS ammo. It even takes out SRMs although only a few. Oh and Radar Deprivation if you can afford it, its necessary on assaults. The Atlas DDC has ECM and the new Cyclops when it comes out has one variant with ECM and another with Twin AMS.

Edited becasue i forgot which Atlas and Stalker variants have twin AMS

Edited by Violet Vitriol Price, 10 May 2016 - 04:49 PM.

[Elendil]

The6thMessenger, on 10 May 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

That means I literally won't have a good time playing Assaults in the lower tier where players spam LRM boats.Although isn't light-mechs already anti assaults?

Both of those things are correct.
In lower tier fights I always go after assaults first, because they're usually the most inexperienced players and play like they're invincible.

Assaults depend on their team to stay alive more than most mechs, and are less forgiving of mistakes. So in low-tier fights they're just begging to get trounced.
With more experience and coordinated allies you avoid the problems with lights, and once you can afford AMS/ECM/Radar Deprivation you can avoid most problems with missiles.
But even in high tiers most people still avoid playing assaults, for various other reasons.

Assaults can be great, but they don't come that way out of the box. And I'm not just referring to buying upgrades...

Edited by Elendil, 10 May 2016 - 05:04 PM.

[VinJade]

@T6M
I pilot a Stalker, so yes I know all about assaults being slow.
Remember one can also turn this around on Snipers with lasers and Assaults.
If you are not close to cover than anyone with an ER LL will pick you apart and you cannot even fight back at times because not only can you not lock on them you cannot even see them on radar even if they are right in front of them.

with energy weapons there are no counter measures to take care of them, no Anti Laser Systems, there are no anti-ballistic System, ect.

So I think the real threat to assault are not LRMs but laser snipers with their mods/ECMs/quirks/ect.

[The6thMessenger]

Elendil, on 10 May 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Both of those things are correct.
In lower tier fights I always go after assaults first, because they're usually the most inexperienced players and play like they're invincible.

Assaults depend on their team to stay alive more than most mechs, and are less forgiving of mistakes. So in low-tier fights they're just begging to get trounced.
With more experience and coordinated allies you avoid the problems with lights, and once you can afford AMS/ECM/Radar Deprivation you can avoid most problems with missiles.
But even in high tiers most people still avoid playing assaults, for various other reasons.

Assaults can be great, but they don't come that way out of the box. And I'm not just referring to buying upgrades...

Any chance that Assaults would be immune or resistant to screen-shakes if LRM missile-count is canon and not subject to change? It will practically deal the same damage, but gives off less stress at the recieving end. Just less psychological damage on the other end. After all, lore-wise Assaults are heavy as **** so yeah i would assume that they are less affected by screen-shakes, and so less stress.

VinJade, on 10 May 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

@T6M
I pilot a Stalker, so yes I know all about assaults being slow.
Remember one can also turn this around on Snipers with lasers and Assaults.
If you are not close to cover than anyone with an ER LL will pick you apart and you cannot even fight back at times because not only can you not lock on them you cannot even see them on radar even if they are right in front of them.

with energy weapons there are no counter measures to take care of them, no Anti Laser Systems, there are no anti-ballistic System, ect.

So I think the real threat to assault are not LRMs but laser snipers with their mods/ECMs/quirks/ect.

I pilot a TBW-A with a Probe + Targetting Computer Mk7, with 3 ER-LLs on the right Torso, two ER-MLs on each arms. It's my Laser-Sniper build i use mainly, and i have 814m to 1350m of range for the 3 ER-LLs, and i mainly snipe from afar, then relocate once i used a single salvo.  I agree, ER-LL snipers are rather hard, but that is just rather off topic. Issue here is LRM vs Assaults, that is what we are taking about, that it seems to be too debilitating, and you come here with that ER-LL issue. Fine, "ER-LLs are OP" i get that, but that's not the issue here, please go someplace else with the "ER-LLs are OP" issue, this is not the place. Other people are participating, giving advices and stuffs, please just do that. If not, please just make another thread on how ER-LL snipers are a *****. To be fair though, when assaults manage to creep up to me, i rarely survive. So if Assault-players are able to get close, they are devastating.

Ylca, on 10 May 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

7. Some who hate lrms admit it is because the indirect fire forces players to hide in cover, i.e. a counter to why do people simply walk over open cover and kill objectives.

I agree, it's all about cover. Then again, Assaults are already debilitated by their slow movespeed. So LRMs are really hard to deal with.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 May 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[VinJade]

@T6M
my replies and comparisons are relevant as they are comparing two weapon systems with similar issues however one has a hefty amount of counter measures while the other does not.

All I am hearing from you is 'LRMs = over powered, blah, blah, blah'
its the same thing people hear countless times, even though LRMs need to be fired in mass to be any real problem seeing as LRMs are one of the most weakest weapons out there in terms of damage.

They only have a few things going for them one of them is the very thing you are complaining about thus why I compared them to ER LLs which it is clearly you are bias because you are a sniper and anyone challenging your fighting style to become annoyed with them quickly.

Thus as I stated before you are complaining about a weapon system that is as some* tend to put it weak compared to sniper's ER LLs.

Why?
Because there is only one counter measure and that's it compared to the LRMs which has the AMS, AMS mod(that should be removed), ECM, Cover, & being unable to lock on or see enemies on radar due to those mods.

In almost all maps there is a way to get behind cover quickly to hide from LRM mechs also with mods they can use more or less makes LRMs useless unless people be come skilled at firing them without locks and then they just cover a wide area and odds are hitting their targets with more than a couple of missiles are slim.

so tell me again how deadly LRMs are against Assault?

annoying they might be but no where near as bad as you seem to want to make them out to be and their rocking is weak compared to getting hit by ACs & GRs..

*Sniper tend to mock and make fun of LRM users and that is the argument they like to throw around.

Edited by VinJade, 11 May 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Intenebrus]

I can't tell you how many people thought they were safe from LRMs only to be hit with one of my lockless shots. As an Assault mech I've learned how strange it is that an assault and a light have alot in common when it comes to dealing with LRMs. Hugging walls traversing quickly from one point of cover to another, never putting yourself in a bad spot to begin with, forcing the enemy to come to you or waiting for some locks of your own to rain down some long range fire. The way you move is the real key to beating Lurmboats. And that's when tactics come back into the game. But yes Polar Highlands can be a real pain when it comes to dealing with Lurmboats. There are alot of useful canyons and some Buildings, but the an LRM's best usage is as a suppression tool to put enemies in these places to begin with, it makes setting up a firing line easier. People tend to run for these things when they hear they are locked on to... even if all you have is an LRM5.

[The6thMessenger]

VinJade, on 11 May 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

@T6M
my replies and comparisons are relevant as they are comparing two weapon systems with similar issues however one has a hefty amount of counter measures while the other does not.

Nope it's not, this thread about LRM and the interaction with Assault Mechs. They are irrelevant as LRM and Lasers have much more different playstyles, advantages and disadvantages. Like ER-Lasers need to expose themselves to get a line of sight and expose themselves for the entire duration, LRMs does not, after all they are "Fire-and-forget", get good enough you may not even need a lock, nor expose yourself to shoot. That means they could retaliate to you if they have weapons with enough range, like assaults with Large Lasers as well. After all, ER-LL as you said is for sniping, but LRMs are for mortaring. However Assaults are Ill-equipped to utilize cover against LRMs because they are slow. Defending against LRMs are picky for covers too, high-cover is required, and something like the trenches of Polar Highlands needs movespeed to be able to evade missiles effectively.

VinJade, on 11 May 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

All I am hearing from you is 'LRMs = over powered, blah, blah, blah'

Yeah, because you're entering my posts into a voice synthesizer instead of just reading them, how else could you miss the part where i'm not saying that LRMs are OP but rather Assaults are too debilitated against LRMs. But counterpoint, all i'm reading from your quote is "ER-LLs are overpowered, blah, blah, blah.", and you just chose to put it here because you wouldn't be bothered to post on another thread, or you just want to get attention. But no, i am not saying that LRMs are overpowered, i'm saying that Assaults are ill-equipped vs LRMs that it's too debilitating for them, and i gave suggestion of what to do about it.

VinJade, on 11 May 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

They only have a few things going for them one of them is the very thing you are complaining about thus why I compared them to ER LLs which it is clearly you are bias because you are a sniper and anyone challenging your fighting style to become annoyed with them quickly.

I'm complaining with LRM vs Assault Mechs, how is that even remotely close about me being butt-hurt about being a sniper? I played Assault Mechs to have an opinion about this, I got peppered by LRM constantly as an Assault Mech to get this opinion. I agreed about ER-LLs being OP several posts ago. Seriously you're just trolling at this point. Other people get this, they told me how can i improve instead, why don't you? It's far more evident that you have more against ER-LLs than being the objective one here.

VinJade, on 11 May 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

In almost all maps there is a way to get behind cover quickly to hide from LRM mechs also with mods they can use more or less makes LRMs useless unless people be come skilled at firing them without locks and then they just cover a wide area and odds are hitting their targets with more than a couple of missiles are slim.

so tell me again how deadly LRMs are against Assault?

Because they're slow. Even if there are covers, they are less likely to make use of it because they can't get there in time. If they are low covers like in Polar Highlands, movement speed that they don't usually have is the key to not get mortared. Just stop trolling in my thread.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 May 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[Omi_]

@The6thMessenger,

Assaults are all about acting only when doing so can score your team a net gain in the battle. They act in a calculated fashion and never engage in risky maneuvers unless they're spearheading for significant chunk of the team.

When walking into battle in an assault, you must commit to a plan which you cannot change part-way through an engagement. By their intended role, assaults have the worst ability to disengage from a bad situation. The key to avoiding situations like LRM fire is to assess the battle before you step out and not just walk around looking for targets. If you find yourself being surprised by LRM fire frequently, you honestly should step down to the heavy class until you get a feel for how to negate LRM carriers while moving around the map before and during battle. This is a skill that most players pick up over time, and constitutes the entire reason why players call LRMs overpowered or useless with little overlap.

I think it's safe to say that at the lowest skill level, assaults require the most "mechwarrior" genre-specific game sense to play. This becomes sharply more important as you increase in tonnage within the assault class, with the Atlas and Dire Wolf being the most extreme mechs in this regard.

[The6thMessenger]

Hornsby, on 11 May 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

@The6thMessenger,

Assaults are all about acting only when doing so can score your team a net gain in the battle.  They act in a calculated fashion and never engage in risky maneuvers unless they're spearheading for significant chunk of the team.

When walking into battle in an assault, you must commit to a plan which you cannot change part-way through an engagement.  By their intended role, assaults have the worst ability to disengage from a bad situation.  The key to avoiding situations like LRM fire is to assess the battle before you step out and not just walk around looking for targets.  If you find yourself being surprised by LRM fire frequently, you honestly should step down to the heavy class until you get a feel for how to negate LRM carriers while moving around the map before and during battle.  This is a skill that most players pick up over time, and constitutes the entire reason why players call LRMs overpowered or useless with little overlap.

I think it's safe to say that at the lowest skill level, assaults require the most "mechwarrior" genre-specific game sense to play.  This becomes sharply more important as you increase in tonnage within the assault class, with the Atlas and Dire Wolf being the most extreme mechs in this regard.

Yeah, i kinda had this pep-talk with others. Although i do use Heavies than Assaults, i am aware of their shortcomings. But i came here to ask if they can afford to have a slight tweak, like no screen-shake etc.

[Omi_]

The6thMessenger, on 11 May 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

Yeah, i kinda had this pep-talk with others. Although i do use Heavies than Assaults, i am aware of their shortcomings. But i came here to ask if they can afford to have a slight tweak, like no screen-shake etc.

Eh, I really like the game play on the heavy side as it is. The screen shake used to be WAY worse way back in beta. It's actually in a good place now and reinforces that the assault player needs to keep their cool and aim carefully.

EDIT: If it's any consolation, assaults put out the MOST screen-shake. Consider using your counter-screen shake to blind your opponents and relish in the fact that you will melt their faces faster than they will melt yours.

EDIT 2: TL;DR Smart players don't play chicken with assaults when the assault is shooting back at them.

Edited by Hornsby, 11 May 2016 - 05:46 PM.