...It baffles me is these are depicted as much smaller, and yet yields the same damage as an srm-2...
Maybe, less fuel (range), same sized warhead? Or, maybe they place into account that these can be aimed at weaker sections of a mech, such as knee joints and the underside of the waist? Thus "dealing" more damage? Or they might reload a little faster. (Or the artist at that time made them look too small?)
Edit: Put the on-topic first, the side topic second.
Final edit: (Sorry had to correct some info.)
Far as MWO's LRM issues, my first piece of advice is to use either speed or "AMS" to counter-act the missile spam. And if it wasn't missile spam you should seriously reconsider how you died as without spam it probably wasn't just the missile.
Here's an idea of how effective the missiles really are. (Language warnings; adults playing with adult language.)
NARC'd and bombarded. Tanking like a boss in 35 tons. Nailed by one LRM boat.
Nailed by multiple LRM boats but protected by allies with AMS.
(Is complete with suggestion to reduce LRMs to 120 missiles from 180, cut their rate of fire in half and double their damage, so they still have the same DPS, AMS has more meaning, and makes LRMs much more useful when they do hit.)
Note in both cases I didn't have AMS, and if I did I'd last longer.
Then again, here's the LRMs that I miss.
Spoiler
Far as I can remember the lock didn't make them homing it just let you fire at something indirectly. But lightning fast. Cover meant nothing. Wide-spread (not tight as a pincushion). Easily dodged.
Good side note about enemy LRM behavior. The closer you are to it, the more cover will mean. The farther away the missiles have to go the higher they will climb before descending upon you. If your cover isn't working, GET CLOSER!
Tesunie, on 14 May 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:
Maybe, less fuel (range), same sized warhead? Or, maybe they place into account that these can be aimed at weaker sections of a mech, such as knee joints and the underside of the waist? Thus "dealing" more damage? Or they might reload a little faster. (Or the artist at that time made them look too small?)
Who knows.
Keep in mind that BT scales for mechs and MWO scales for mechs are very...very different. Yeah. (Note that's a very short 55 ton mech with the armor of a Locust.)
Anyway there's actually several entries to this launcher. Size remains completely consistent in each rendering even by different artists, the best one being a black/white specs illustration (much more detailed) but there's multiple illustrations of it in the hand of a character within action sequences (such as side-supporting a wounded buddy that's got severe leg burns with one arm and carrying this specific launcher with the other. Said wounded buddy had a strange backpack that included spare warheads).
Of further interesting note:
The launcher has a fancy name and manufacturer which both elude me right this second.
Weighs about 10 kilograms.
The typical man-portable SRM launcher "must be be placed and fired at an indirect angle," however "shoulder-mounted models exist allowing the user to fire directly at the target." (Placed/fired ones are also 10 kilograms. 22.046 lbs.)
The shoulder launcher can only fire one missile at a time and the mechanism Revolves to lock the second missile into position.
Revolving action is done manually.
The missile casing (part that revolves) is removed and replaced for each reload; the revolving portion is evidently similar to an assault rifle magazine; keep if you can but otherwise disposable.
The front-end of the launcher design is based on the FAMAS.
In every appearance of the launcher being on someone's person, that goofy little dual analog-lever pack is also in the same image on the same person. Meaning every man-portable SRM launcher is or can be 'wire guided'.
Only in the shared image has the launcher ever been seen on the shoulder, all other versions show it being held like a rifle, the stock is often obscured by an arm or the torso. (This once led me to believe it was fired like a rifle, til seeing the proper illustration.) Admittedly they are never using it during any of these images.
It has no trigger guard over the trigger itself, just a hand guard (omg the accidental launches that must happen with this thing!)
The trigger must be squeenzed by using your thumb.
Its kick is considered to be about equal to "old 20th century break-open grenade launchers".
An image of inferno SRMs for this launcher depict that when fired, wings fold out of the rear and with another set coming from half-way in the warhead itself.
Meaningful range as I've found out is apparently 6 hexes or 180 meters. Will be testing this out because it would mean something.
This story refers to a defensive position that sees advancing enemies in the distance. "No uniforms. Just guns and mean expressions. And I see a couple of portable SRMs!" (And if those jokers were carrying portable rocket launchers...) [under the circumstances I suspect that these aren't the same launcher as shown in my original image].
This campaign scenario description refers to a heavy SRM launcher which is our gun. Alongside it are 4 LAWs (light anti-tank weapons, disposable). 7 man squads. (This image is not the image I described.)
---
While looking for the launcher name to get the detailed info about it, I came across this entry about Intelligence Agents ("Ninja") and grappling hooks, 40mm mortars and man-portable SRM launchers are mentioned. Shown here.
Random note I found while also looking:
To conserve power on long voyages, gravity is only used in eating areas and (space) naval officer quarters.
Example 1 and 2. For some reason MWO won't let me post with the gravity one, but the scene has a booth-like table and two people are seated in gravity near a view port. There in the background (space) naval combat capital ships can be seen in a formation.
To mention, I haven't read anything about this before-hand; can any lore nuts tell me if they seen any mention of ships intentionally deactivating gravity in specific areas of the ship in such a way that it appears to be standard procedure?
Last I knew, there was no artifical gravity in Battletech (which I could be very wrong). Ships created gravity via movement or rotation, normally while in a burn towards or off a planet. However, they may have had artifical gravity in limited fashions, thus maybe only in specific areas (such as eating areas and select cabins). I'd imagine it would be an expensive system (maybe even los-tech like the Jump Drive).
In the novels, they kinda turned gravity on or off as it was convenient for the story events...
I have a Kit Fox with 3 AMS on it. I will RUN TOWARDS LRM streams. And I TAG (which OMGosh, the enemy Mechs hate!)
From time to time, another Mech will look at me to see how the heck I'm doing it. My best game was a Quick Play and I did not have one point of damage. (I do counter attack any light Mechs in the area) 4 of our LRM mechs just happened to get into a rough box and I ran between the front two and still shot down a lot going to the two Mechs behind me.
One Mechwarrior told me after the match that that was the first time she shot all her missiles and did not take ANY damage.
To give you an idea of how LRMs can be used right. We faced a defending Steiner unit (the ones that seem to have an unlimited amount of air strikes and UAVs) on an invasion.
I was using an Assault Mech and could do little but watch. They used a Raven who Narced 3-4 of our first Mechs. Then a storm of LRMs like I've never seen started to rain down. 4-6 waves of 20 LRMs just rocked back each of our Mechs in turn.
To give you an idea of how LRMs can be used right. We faced a defending Steiner unit (the ones that seem to have an unlimited amount of air strikes and UAVs) on an invasion.
I was using an Assault Mech and could do little but watch. They used a Raven who Narced 3-4 of our first Mechs. Then a storm of LRMs like I've never seen started to rain down. 4-6 waves of 20 LRMs just rocked back each of our Mechs in turn.
So that sounds more like an example of people that do not understand how to counter lurms (ie move to cover!) as opposed to lurms being used correctly, or at least to their potential maximum effectiveness.
Really, there isnt a damn single match which not a single enemy has rockets equipped.
Why are they able to hit me even when im on cover? Really, rockets being able to target you outside of view its really REALLY cheap and unfair.
Its like the only actual way to play the game.
I try to scout, rocketed, i try to ambush, rocketed, ******* everything in the game is rockets.
EDIT: This is my new account.
1. Missiles. Sorry for being pedantic.
2. They aren't. I'm assuming you're new, but LRMs are ton for ton the least effective weapon. You have to learn how to fight LRM boats. The key points are as follows: Cover, Aggression, and Spotter Elimination.
Cover: As soon as you get the "Incoming Missile" warning, get up against a wall or any cover high enough to block some or all.
Aggression: LRMs have a minimum effective range of 180m for Inner Sphere missiles. Within that range, Clan LRMs do half damage. It is in your best interest to find a safe, covered approach to approach missile boats and fight in close quarters where their weapons are ineffective.
Spotter elimination: an enemy team with basic coordination will use spotters to acquire locks. Look around for a light Mech. If you don't see one, look up for UAVs as these can also be dropped above an enemy formation to get locks. This is also why having your own UAV is a helpful boost. Doing so will allow you to reveal a nearby spotter who may be hiding behind cover or under ECM.
So that sounds more like an example of people that do not understand how to counter lurms (ie move to cover!) as opposed to lurms being used correctly, or at least to their potential maximum effectiveness.
It was both. There are always two(or more) sides to everything so you simply cannot put this down simply to the lack of experience of our unit. In fact, you could say that they did everything well considering. If I had had my AMS boat it might have been a little different but we had no idea this premade was going to have at least Six Mechs with 20 LRMs racks. The invasion before we faced almost none.
I wish I had taken a video of it but this was a well set up ambush. There was really no cover, they were grouped coming out of a trench and just got rocked. I'm sure better players would have shot the Narc off of each other and then uh...went back..or went forward to die or....
There are a few Faction Play maps where as a defender, LRM fire support -can- be utilized however, its still not the preferred weapon system of FP.
A group of us did it as an experiment a while back on a couple of different maps.
We had 4 dedicated LRM Fire Support mechs up, 2 spotters and everyone else was loaded up with standard direct fire laser/ballistics. Our 4 Fire Support mechs, were split out around a choke point, specifically so they all had different angles into the open ground after the choke point and all were within 200-500m of the 'killbox'.
Our direct fire mechs were also split around the killbox, with the 2 spotters seeded in good cover that had good visibility of the killbox. All Fire support mechs had artemis and focused down targets called by the spotters, on two of the maps we had the best successes with there is cover but our teams setup meant that even in cover another LRM mech or two had an angle onto it.
BUT it only works if you have a dedicated team, and those that are willing to lose a game, just for a bit of experimentation for something different.
Option 1 is cover
Option 2 is close distance to point blank range ASAP.
If you have a good amount of long range direct fire then you go for option 1. Stay in cover, pop out and alpha and return to cover (ie 99% of how comp play starts). Lurm boats will be completely useless in this scenario, even with narcs floating about.
Option 2 is usually your best bet if your team is not set up to play Peek-a-boo warrior online(option 1). Also the better option if time is working against you.
The enemy team wont be able to focus as well (lurms cant focus damage at all) plus the enemy team will now likely end up lurming friendly units.
LRMs have a minimum effective range of 180m for Inner Sphere missiles. Within that range, Clan LRMs do half damage.
Clan LRMs do scaling damage between 0 and 180m, they do half damage at about 120, with well less than half inside 90m, at 10m they do maybe 1% of full damage while 179 m they still do 99% of max damage.
just wanted to make sure people have the correct information
As a frequent pilot of a 2x CLRM20 Timberwolf I can definitely attest to the ease by which some players can avoid LRMs. This is usually accomplished by (in order of effectiveness)
Ducking behind something.
Running away from the missiles to make them miss.
Use of an AMS.
I normally will not engage targets more than 800m away due to the fact that they have plenty of time to duck into cover. I myself have been able to avoid many LRMs by using the terrain. Specifically on the factory map there is an area where the player appears to be sitting in the open except for a large pipe overhead. Position yourself just right and nearly all LRMs fired at you will strike the pipe.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 16 May 2016 - 07:47 AM
As mentioned by several others, LRM's are a low skill floor and low skill ceiling weapons system, the down side is, once you learn how to move and how to avoid LRM's they become a non-issue. If you can see the LRM launching mech, get in close to it, under 180/120m and the mech is more or less harmless. AMS is a good add on, as think of it as a 1.5t investment in active damage reduction against LRM's, SRM's, SSRM's and NARC. Another way to deal with LRM's is to equip ECM as it reduces the abilities of target locking mechanics to short range, another option once you have the GXP and C-bills to spend, is Target Deprivation module, as once you are out of line of sight, in most cases you are no longer targeted.
Everytime I see overpowered I think of that line from princess bride. "That word you keep using; I don't think it means what you think it means."
Anyways, another thing to do if you're not actively engaged is to look at the missiles and start backing up and moving to either the left or right (depending on the trajectory) to do kind of a circle. I dodge many a lrms in my timberwolf this way. Alternatively, if you have JJs, wait for them to be nearly on you then hit the JJs to jump right over them. This method takes a little practice and knowledge of your mech but is very much worth it. Just make sure you don't have a teammate right behind you that'll take the hit
Anders Clearwater, on 16 May 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:
All Fire support mechs had artemis and focused down targets called by the spotters,...
Artemis isn't being helpful if it's being fired indirectly. The only benefit they are getting for the cost of Artemis when fired indirectly is increased missile lock on speed. Everything else is turned off unless the Artemis mech itself has line of sight to the target.
Just FYI. For those tactics, it may have been wiser to remove Artemis and place in more ammo, larger launchers, additional heat sinks, extra defensive weapons, etc. Then again, faster lock on speeds isn't a bad thing to have, so it may have still been worth it.
My unit has done some "LRM spam" practices in FP/FW/CW. We found it to be of moderate effectiveness, but not as effective on the attack (where we commonly where back then). Funniest thing was, I was the only "mixed" LRM mech (my normal specialty), and I was top performer of those matches for my team, because I had the mixed weapons. As targets got too close, I'd slam into them and finish them off. As I ran out of LRM ammo, I closed in and stalled the advance. Etc.
Oh, yeah, falls off, good point, and something many forget: a NARC beacon can be shot off of a NARCed mech by a teammate. Assuming of course he knows what he is doing and can aim good enough. They have 3 or 4 health if memory serves.
Is that true? You're trolling right? You've got to be trying to get people to shoot each other.
Zerberus, on 14 May 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:
I would not want to be the ammo guy, all the work, none of the fun
Yeah, we always stuck our new guys or guys who messed up or just weren't as good in ammo platoon.
Koniving, on 14 May 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
Interestingly, more common are units with mostly auto rifles and a single srm-2 launcher wielded by one man with ammo in tow by a second man. It baffles me is these are depicted as much smaller, and yet yields the same damage as an srm-2 and all I can think of is that this AR sized launcher and it's hip pack missile remote control (for quick mid-flight course correction) must be able to be reloaded and fired several times in 10 seconds, equalling the same damage or there must be more than one guy using one... Or the official art is so blatantly wrong about it.
Tesunie, on 14 May 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:
Maybe, less fuel (range), same sized warhead? Or, maybe they place into account that these can be aimed at weaker sections of a mech, such as knee joints and the underside of the waist? Thus "dealing" more damage? Or they might reload a little faster. (Or the artist at that time made them look too small?)
Who knows.
You know, this was my first guess, Tesunie. Range for power. It's a thing with pretty much any explosive-warhead. More warhead means less propellant.
I'd kind of like to see Arrow IVs show up. GMLRS unitary much?
Is that true? You're trolling right? You've got to be trying to get people to shoot each other.
It'd be neat, but actually no.
What really has probably happened is that an ECM mech has approached within 90 meters of the NARC'd victim; or in the case of an ECM user that has been narc'd, another ECM user has entered range.
ECM from ANOTHER mech on the same side of the victim instantly removes NARC.
But. NARC counters ECM on its attached target. Yay MWO PGI mechanics... (eyeroll)
Anders Clearwater, on 16 May 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:
There are a few Faction Play maps where as a defender, LRM fire support -can- be utilized however, its still not the preferred weapon system of FP.
A group of us did it as an experiment a while back on a couple of different maps.
We had 4 dedicated LRM Fire Support mechs up, 2 spotters and everyone else was loaded up with standard direct fire laser/ballistics. Our 4 Fire Support mechs, were split out around a choke point, specifically so they all had different angles into the open ground after the choke point and all were within 200-500m of the 'killbox'.
Our direct fire mechs were also split around the killbox, with the 2 spotters seeded in good cover that had good visibility of the killbox. All Fire support mechs had artemis and focused down targets called by the spotters, on two of the maps we had the best successes with there is cover but our teams setup meant that even in cover another LRM mech or two had an angle onto it.
BUT it only works if you have a dedicated team, and those that are willing to lose a game, just for a bit of experimentation for something different.
Good tactics, good tale.
As mentioned by Tesunie,
while Artemis is not useful against indirect fire targets (that is if someone else has to spot for you -- your Artemis does nothing), but it is useful when the pilots with Artemis can see their own target. Lock on speed, missile formation tightness, and the frequency and total number of 'course corrections' are greater (resulting in significantly superior accuracy).
That's about the tip of the 'useful' info to you. The rest is just lore-ducation and has nothing to do with MWO, just the source material and the weird reasons things are the way they are.
Spoiler
While the reason for this in the origin of the rules means about as much in MWO as having an ice cream sundae on your mech's dashboard when the cockpit's internal temperatures reach as high as 150 degrees provided a fully functioning life support system (when most of the mech can reach much higher).... it's still a neat thing to know the origin of why.
Artemis-equipped launchers have a laser designator (similar to MWO's overly simplified version of TAG) (This is why it requires line of sight) in addition to a wire-guided transmitter and computer system meant to control and guide the mech (the reason why ECM in BT affects Artemis missiles but NOT standard SRMs/LRMs).
In essence, in BT: LRMs and SRMs are lock, fire, forget weapons. Assuming they lock at all rather than pick their own targets (depending on the author and manufacturer, some missiles are simply fired and picked their own targets, or in the case of the infantry based ones they were wire-guided.)
Artemis missiles are significantly more accurate lock, fire, track weapons.
Streaks are lock, fire, forget weapons that refuse to fire unless its pathing computer is convinced that it would be impossible to miss.
As mentioned by Tesunie,
while Artemis is not useful against indirect fire targets (that is if someone else has to spot for you -- your Artemis does nothing)...
I believe you still retain improved lock on speed, even if indirectly fired. But everything else doesn't come into effect unless you have direct line of sight. I reserve the right to be incorrect though, but I'm fairly certain of this information.
On the note of ECM, it has several problem within MW:O (for a game mechanic as well as compared to lore). Right now it has a triple effect on LRMs (of particular note, less so for SSRMs). Currently it disables the ability to lock a target you can see (thus keeping one from getting a missile lock and/or sharing target data and position), then it also delays any missile locks that might happen when/if you can actually get a lock on the target, and then it also spreads this effect to other nearby allies (as it should though).
If it was just prevent locks (unless pierced in some manner) or slow down missile locks, it probably would be fine. But once it does both (and share it to everyone nearby), it's too much. If I wasn't penalized when I could get a lock on missile lock times, then I think it would be fine. If it just delayed missile locks but didn't hinder getting a lock when visually seen (or maybe it only delayed getting a lock slightly when visually seen), then I think it would be fine.
Via lore, it shouldn't even be messing with locks at all. Data gathering, Ghost pings on the radar (making it look like they are someplace else or more of them on the mini-map maybe), disabling the effects of advanced missile guidance system (Artemis, NARC, TAG), disabling Comms (Good luck with that here) are all things ECM can/should be able to do.
Then again, Lore =/= First person video game implementation.
This statement just means that some things may have to alter for better game play. However, I don't believe ECM was done in a good manner...
2
Koniving, on 14 May 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
which is our gun. Alongside it are 4 LAWs (light anti-tank weapons, disposable). 7 man squads. (This image is not the image I described.)
