93 replies to this topic

[Brakkyn]

Thanfully, the developers said they wanted to avoid the typical "circle of death" and jump-sniping fragfests of the past and move into "realistic" 'Mech combat. I hope those days will soon be over, personally. A focus on strategy and tactics is above and beyond pulling a series of Tasmanian devil attacks on your enemies or an endless whack-a-mole with jumping BattleMechs.

[Alex Wolfe]

Dragorath, on 12 December 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

You are right if you think about today, BUT Battletech is a different universe. It's a kind of Lostech universe. Did you never asked yourself why not every missle is fully guided. It would be just a matter of money. And if you take german tanks they would blow a fly from a wall over 1 km while driving, but mechs don't hit with every shot? Just think about it....

Ah, but that's a part of my argument, which I tried to sum up at the bottom of the very post you quote. Perhaps I don't put enough attention to modern missile construction, but I think I have some idea of how a fantasy universe is made.

Some people want to make a relatively light science fiction game. What's the premise? "Climactic, dynamic combat between gigantic, largely humanoid robots". What is needed? "The robots need to be heavily armed and armored ("gigantic"), piloted by a single human ("climactic", gives a nice old-school heroic feel), and fairly agile and able to dodge and shoot with relative impunity ("dynamic")". Like, say, in those crazy Japanese cartoon things.

Does it seem fun? If yes, write some story about how are robots possible. If something looks like it could jeopardize the fun ("why don't people just nuke each other instead" "if it's the future, why don't robots fight by themselves" "why don't the fight from different continents"), you slap on some token explanation ("it's lostech!") why it doesn't work similar to our, thoroughly giant robot-unfriendly method of warfare. Done and done!

Bottom line is, if it's a different universe and the way said robots operate and fight is already well established, then there's even less of a reason to change the way they operate on such a fundamental level as "highly inaccurate on the move, better accuracy when crouching", because it changes the whole dynamics from "robot jousting" to "robot camping/sniping" for no reason... You're basically changing the entire premise with that, without either in-universe or metagame explanation.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 12 December 2011 - 02:29 PM.

[stun]

One way to beat COD is to slam your mech into reverse as soon as the opponent is beyond your cockpit view. The way it works out is your guns will be on the opponents CT when they come around the half circle quicker than they can aim at yours, the visual is deceiving because on the opponents screen you look like your still turned when in fact your aiming right on them (at least in mw4).

Ive done it so many times where you hit them and it throws off their next alpha, making your alpha strike ahead of theirs which is a huge advantage in close quarters.

[Orzorn]

stun, on 12 December 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

One way to beat COD is to slam your mech into reverse as soon as the opponent is beyond your cockpit view. The way it works out is your guns will be on the opponents CT when they come around the half circle quicker than they can aim at yours, the visual is deceiving because on the opponents screen you look like your still turned when in fact your aiming right on them (at least in mw4).

Ive done it so many times where you hit them and it throws off their next alpha, making your alpha strike ahead of theirs which is a huge advantage in close quarters.

I did this trick many times. Just slam your mech into reverse and change the twist direction. Most people don't have mechs that are fast enough to react, although some very fast light mechs can usually pull a turn and twist around to try to avoid the maneuver, but even then they still have a good chance of getting clipped by a few shots.

[Kristov Kerensky]

CoD..only way to remove it from a video game is make it difficult, if not impossible, to do, and that is done via the enviroment combat takes place in.

Alex, you seem to be under the illusion that Mechs are giant robots constructed from nothing but mechanical pieces and the Mech jock sitting in that cockpit is kicking back in a nice comfy chair hooked up to some device that translates thought into action..and that just ain't how it works by a long shot.

Mechs have a solid skeletal structure with actual MUSCLES attached to that, which is how a Mech moves. Myomer fibers, developed as an artificial human muscle for use in bionics and cybernetics, they work exactly like a real human muscle..only they are MUCH stronger. So..your Mech isn't instantly responsive to your commands, and it doesn't stand still when you aren't moving, any more then YOU stand perfectly still when you aren't moving.

Neurohelmets do NOT read your mind, they do NOT translate your thoughts into actions. What they DO is monitor your sense of balance and translate that to the gyros and stabilization devices in the Mech to keep it upright while standing still..or moving. Moving the legs and arms requires that YOU move your legs and arms to activate the various control devices to make those things take place, complete with feedback systems, so you have to actually exert yourself to make the Mech do things like walk, pick up something, swing the arms around, jump(without jets) and so on. Usually described as a set of foot pedals used for walking and a set of joysticks to control the arms.

Mech Warriors are NOT fat out of shape arm chair warriors, they are extremely fit, with excellent reflexes and stamina because their job, piloting a Mech, demands it. Even the Inner Sphere stravags are like this It takes years of training and conditioning to be a Mech Warrior, that's a subject canon makes NO exceptions on, NO ONE just jumps into a Mech and is able to use it right away, just putting on a neurohelmet takes getting used to.

So, running around in a giant metal shell that's powered by muscles and with targeting systems using computers that are often hundreds of years old and that NO ONE understands how they work...stable firing platform is NOT what you get

[Slepnir]

Ive been playing TT for nearly 25 years and we went to miniature 3d terrain rules long ago. the key to avoiding the spiral of death is terrain of varying degrees allowing your faster heavy mechs to do hit and fade attacks and draw attention off the fast light mechs so they can circle around behind,. which is why they always moved last in the lance. even with range penalties a good bit of long ranged firepower exchanged still do take place on the TT. the higher movement modifier to target faster medium and heavy mechs made assualt mechs easier to be hit and have a harder time returning fire....but then again they are made to wade through that kind of fire.

[The Basilisk]

When I played MW4 mercs multiplayer we refered to circle fighting as something that does happen when theres no team play.
Circling prevents teammates from clear sightline / save shoots and gets you dangerously near to an enemy that is about to explode.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

CoD - yet another reason for allowing arm flipping.

[Havoc2]

The CoD is what happens when 2 players are trying to kill each other, if you have teammates around and you're still falling into a CoD, you, them, or both are doing it wrong.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Agreed - but it can happen if say two scouts meet up.

[MilitantMonk]

I think if there is more terrain the circle strategy will be used less. Part of the reason it worked was that almost every map from MW2 on up had huge open plains of nothing to manuever on. Stick mechs in a city where it's single file street movement and that gets interesting.

[dm5k]

Jack Deth, on 08 December 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

Good maps will cut down on this a lot. Varied terrain makes circle fighting a lot more difficult, especially if they can nail down trees properly as far as actually blocking line of sight and providing cover without preventing movement through them. Realistically dense urban environments will help with this too. The emphasis on electronic warfare should really open things up for more varied tactics too, I think.

I agree with this. I am extremely happy that there will be less circle strafing because of the confined maps. Its fun to circle strafe but it also gets old and requires less tactical thinking when the maps are wide open.

[Tannhauser Gate]

As the devs play-balance the game they will realize that people want to use their own play styles in game. CoD and sniping will happen. The goal should be to prevent one tactic from becoming a crutch that dominates and spoils the game.

[GrimJim]

I for one am looking forward to a really dense jungle map. I think people are hyped for the destructibility of urban terrain, but I'd love to see the craziness coming out destructible forests.

Flame on.

(As an aside, there should be a flat, no cover, plains/lunar map that lets everyone just go hog wild...CODs, unrestricted viewing for explosions, clear LOS, zero tactics... let those with the fastest finger rule the day.

It would be a nice XBox-ish way to blow off steam for those too impatient enough to deal with chains of command, scouting, subterfuge... and, well, team play).

[Shield]

GrimJim, on 13 December 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

I for one am looking forward to a really dense jungle map. I think people are hyped for the destructibility of urban terrain, but I'd love to see the craziness coming out destructible forests.

Flame on.

This would actually be awesome. Catching terrain on fire to reduce the effectiveness of the heatsinks on a mech would just be spectacular. A Flea with flamers in a forest that could catch fire makes my trigger fingers tingle.

[verybad]

Skwisgaar Skwigelf, on 08 December 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

I think it would be cool if they introduced a side-step action. Maybe not a full strafe that you can hold and keep going in that direction, just a push-this-key-once and shuffle sideways a step. This would be especially great in cities, where you could duck behind a building quickly then pop back out and open fire.

I really would prefer if mechs were not this agile. They're supposed to be lumbering behemoths not Japanese style Mecha. I would be ok with sidestepping as a skill a pilot had to learn before it was available in a mech, and certainly not for straifing.

Mechwarrior is a different style of FPS, too much agility and you lose the style.

[GaussDragon]

Speaking of circle strafing and terrain, I made a calculator that takes into account the strafing angle and the terrain (as well as other factors). In this formula, it makes a mech more likely to be knocked down the more the adopt a perpendicular strafe to their target. The formula rewards players for making fast strafes across their opponent at under 60 degrees of angle. It makes it nearly impossible to get knocked down if you charge right at your opponent in a blood rage.

http://www.usaupload.net/d/p54but1vdqe

The idea behind the calculator is to simply play around with the balance/interplay between certain factors, and seeing how manipulating the numbers affects scenarios.

[Pht]

I don't think the circle of death is in and of itself a problem - but when it's the dominant open-field tactic, to the exclusion of all others, something's wrong.

An MW game would, hopefully, offer more tactical (and stragetic) depth.

verybad, on 13 December 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

I really would prefer if mechs were not this agile. They're supposed to be lumbering behemoths not Japanese style Mecha. I would be ok with sidestepping as a skill a pilot had to learn before it was available in a mech, and certainly not for straifing.

Mechwarrior is a different style of FPS, too much agility and you lose the style.

I don't think it's so much that the 'mechs aren't that agile as that the piloting capability to be able to do those maneuvers is/should be rather rare.

Edited by Pht, 13 December 2011 - 04:00 PM.

[TheMagicMan]

GrimJim, on 13 December 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

I for one am looking forward to a really dense jungle map. I think people are hyped for the destructibility of urban terrain, but I'd love to see the craziness coming out destructible forests.

Yeah that would be awesome.

I could care less about CoD, it's like turn fighting (or even a rolling scissor) in a dog fight, and if your on a team then your teammates have to shoot through you. Plus as stated it can be reduced by good map design. What I hate is when you've got a heavy mech jump-sniping from across the map.

[AC]

I am a bit concerned that the Devs want to limit circle fighting and range fighting. What is the point of having weapons with range differences if we are all going to be in a city? And how hard is it to fire point blank and hit another mech? I feel like they are taking all the skill out of the game. We might as well just stand facing eachother and trade shots until someone blows up.....

Long range fire was a skill, and one that took time to master.