68 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

The problem is not armor, it is pinpoint precise group fire combined with the component hitbox system.

However, PGI will never do anything to limit precise group fire, because the E-Sport aspect is more important to them than the BT universe or simulation aspects.

[Peter2k]

A thing like doubling structure should be something easy to try out on the test server
After all tweaking a few values here n there is the height of balance ideas (quirks) for PGI

Should be doable in a working day if someone has to do it by hand

Could write a script to change the values in the files

I'd preferred using structure since it would carve out the niche for critical seeking weapons a bit more

[Jukebox]

During closed Beta, armor was doubled because mechs were dying too fast resulting in 5 minute games.

However one thing that they overlooked was that certain mechs (light mechs) that did not depend on armor in the first place also got their armor doubled making them much too survivable.

But the thing is that assault mechs can only depend on their armor for survival and while on paper the armor on an assault mech makes everything look impressive, the fact that they cannot dodge incoming fire like their lighter brothers, coupled with their greater size and slower speed actually makes them less survivable.

[AztecD]

^^ So true, no way a light mech can take 2-3 alphas and still run away like nothing happened

[Coolant]

well i pilot Assaults fairly regularly so I'm more than ok for more armour buffs. Whether they need them or not is a different question. Most have structure buffs. Although some need more (like the Victor). There were more armour quirks before and in a quirk pass they changed most to structure. I don't think we'll see many armour buffs, but I would like to.

[Airwind]

they need to come up with a mechanic where there are more armor segments to the ST and CT.

Light would have the current single segments for 1RT/2CT/1LT
Medium would have 2RT/2CT/2LT
Heavy would have 2RT/3CT/2LT
Assault would have 3RT/3CT/3LT

Each of these armor segments protects a fixed internal structure HP. Destroying a CT of an assault may require stripping 2 Segments to get to the underlying structure HP.

e.g. Internal structure HP = 30 HP. 3 Segments with max 20HP (cap) underlying structure each. So destroying 1 Segment would allow you to get at the 20HP. The remainder you will have to strip of the other segments to get at another 10HP to destroy that section.

Only trouble is how to visually identify these segments and segments which are already stripped. and seeing how the netcode does poorly at hitreg with current hitboxes. adding more would be game breaking?.

If this is able to be implemented, even the way mech is segmented can vary base on their design.

[zephoidb]

No. Bring in Reactive and Reflective armor types that would cost weight. It would increase TTK, allow you to specialize your mech to what you want to be fighting (poke wars are more lasers, brawling is more projectiles). It would give assaults a use for some of the extra tonnage they carry that often has difficulty going anywhere with heatsinks taking up most of the slots.

[Satan n stuff]

Jukebox, on 27 July 2016 - 07:15 AM, said:

dodge incoming fire

Seriously? This game doesn't work like that. The slowest projectile that doesn't home in on it's target is still six times faster than any given light mech and reaches it's max range in less time than it takes most lights to significantly alter their vector.
If a light mech isn't getting hit by something you fired at it it's not because they dodged it, it's because you missed. Aim better and the lights will magically stop existing, like every other mech in this game. The difference is that the heavier mechs can survive at least one or two solid hits while a light mech would be dead or crippled.

[Brain Cancer]

Assaults are the weakest at spreading damage and the game makes precision damage easy.

Cue dead slow assaults dying like flies to focused fire. The problem is convergence being perfect in every way. The problem also is one slow assault taking fire from six enemies and expecting to survive long enough to get out of the finishers.

[Baulven]

Brain Cancer, on 27 July 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Assaults are the weakest at spreading damage and the game makes precision damage easy.

Cue dead slow assaults dying like flies to focused fire. The problem is convergence being perfect in every way. The problem also is one slow assault taking fire from six enemies and expecting to survive long enough to get out of the finishers.

No mech walking into a 6 mech fire lane survives. It doesn't matter if you are in a light or an assault if the people can aim.

[feeWAIVER]

I think assaults are fine.

[dario03]

Lights and mediums need a lot more help than assaults.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

No mech walking into a 6 mech fire lane survives. It doesn't matter if you are in a light or an assault if the people can aim.

And with 12v12 the odds of you hitting that critical mass of firepower increases greatly vs. 8v8 matches. Of course assault lower agility means you can hit that point of damage saturation with even fewer targets firing at you simply because it's that much harder to break into cover.

More players per team increase the odds of a TTK so low that additional armor levels are a moot point.

[feeWAIVER]

Brain Cancer, on 27 July 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

And with 12v12 the odds of you hitting that critical mass of firepower increases greatly vs. 8v8 matches. Of course assault lower agility means you can hit that point of damage saturation with even fewer targets firing at you simply because it's that much harder to break into cover.

More players per team increase the odds of a TTK so low that additional armor levels are a moot point.

No, it's fine.

[Lykaon]

invernomuto, on 16 May 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

Don't you find that Assault mechs are generally weak in MWO? It's not a whine, I enjoy this game very much and I think that mech classes are all viable and competitive.
However, to me Assault mechs does not "feel" right. If you get focus fired by 2 (or 3 mech) they go down very fast, even if you are in a 100 tons monster like a King Crab.

When I first got my first assault, a Battlemaster, I was shocked how “weak” it was. Walk without cover in front of the enemies for more than a bunch of seconds and your armor is gone and “Critical Damage” appears on your cockpit.
Don’t get me wrong, the Battlemasters are very good mechs and I learned how to use them effectively, but IMHO they do not “feel” like an assault.

With the Mauler or King Crab, the feeling is the same: they’re slower and have better armor, but you have to stay in cover or you go down fast.
The motto for assault in MWO could be: “Unleash your mighty firepower, but please don’t leave your rock…”

TL;DR: don’t you think that the time-to-kill of an assault mech should be raised with an armor buff or something similar?
Thoughts?

So you feel that walking out of cover for a "more than a bunch of seconds" isn't a poor choice and that an assault mech should be durable enough to survive for "more than a bunch of seconds" without cover in the line of fire of 3 enemy mechs?

Most other mechs that walk out of cover into the line of fire of 2 or 3 enemy mechs are pretty much crippled in about 3 seconds or the amount of time to realize you just made a very poor choice and retreat back into cover.

That being said.

I think the entire damage dealing mechanics needs a work over. I would like to see the focus shifted from destroying a mech with a rapid succession of high damage alpha strikes to picking a target apart to remove it's combat effectiveness.

I would retain armor values as they are now (or close to it) and increase internal structure (favoring center and side torsos) and component health levels. Along with this alteration we need a more robust critical hit mechanic that has negative effects applied to the mech's performance for any component destroyed.

Arm actuator destroyed, your arm target reticule is hampered.
Leg actuator destroyed,your mech's speed and turning ability is reduced
Gyro hit? the targeting reticule shakes when you move (like jumpjets cause) with more shake the faster your mech goes.
Sensor hit? HUD flickers off and on erraticly
Engine hit? the mech builds additional heat when moving and firing weapons.


So instead of spamming alpha strikes at a mechs CT to kill it as fast as possible (with more structure it will take longer) you may want to instead blast it's weapon arm off to reduce it's fighting abilities.

[DovisKhan]

AztecD, on 27 July 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

^^ So true, no way a light mech can take 2-3 alphas and still run away like nothing happened

Not true at all, because you're spraying lazors and praying to hit the center


Be a real ace and go ballistic, few hits drop any light

[mogs01gt]

dario03, on 27 July 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Lights and mediums need a lot more help than assaults.

this

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Besh, on 27 July 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

I disagree, a lot . I have been going around in Atlai , and am surprised by their staying power even if focussed down by half the enemy Team every single Time . Ofc. you DO die in a few seconds when that happens . But thats fine in my Book...

Assaults are also FAR from being NOT viable . If you think so, you may be doing some things wrong . Or maybe suffer from PotatoeTeam Syndrome ( where your Team simply decides to sacrifice the 3 Assaults cos its funnier and more efficient if a ) 3 of them chase one Squirrel b ) 3 hide behind buildings waiting for the enemy to walk into their crosshairs c ) 2 LRM boats stand hiding in cover waiting for Locks to appear and d ) one is a disco ) . Anytime I play Assault and am in a Team which has no clue about the impact of those monsters on the outcome, its pretty...hmm...lets say "unsatisfying" ?

Increasing Armor on Assaults imo is one of the worst Ideas anyone can come up with, 'cos -> powercreep .

my opinion is based on the overall experience in assaults, not a few drops that went well.
I also had such, but i play assaults alot and way too often it feels like it woud be smarter to play heavy all day.
Not because i suck in assaults, more because assaults kinda suck.

[DrxAbstract]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 May 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

I did see one suggestion that i liked a lot, actually - splitting up the hitboxes a lot, so that you have say 3-4 hotboxes in the ST, which all have the same total armour value as the ST would normally have, and all sharing the same internal structure - so if you punch through the armour with a concentrated burst, you have to hit the exact same spot again to exploit the hole.

All the ones saying your guns shouldnt go where you aim though though? Nope.

I liked that idea as well. The only drawback is HSR already has trouble tracking damage transitions between the hitbox sections we already have so, and this is only a theory I have, doubling or quadrupling hitbox counts is going to lead to some unintentionally impervious Mechs... Fix that, though, and it could work well.

[MrMadguy]

As I've said many times already - armour doesn't serve it's purpose. Assaults are intended to be tanks. In fact they are designed to work that way - they are big, slow and have low wide hardpoints - they simply can't use cover. And in MWO Assault are easy targets - almost any Medium and even Light can have enough firepower to two-shot any Assault. Huchback IIC for example: 68 firepower at 405m, 33 firepower at 740m. And Assault 'Mech can have around 100 CT armour and around 60 ST armour. I.e. it's two-shot for CT and one-shot for ST.