I call it Stomp, after the trash can band... that was probably paid to much (that was a band right?)
4/6/0 XL engine
Endo Steel
Double heatsinks
5.5 tons of armor (i do:6head,10arms,12RL torsos,15CT,8legs, Rear is 2,3,2
for 88pts)
ER Large Laser
UAC5 w/2 tons of ammo (that way the only parts you can lose safely is 1 of the legs and the left arm.
so basically, pester assaults and hope they don't get a lock.
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Theorycrafting: Urbanmech designs -- what can you make it do?
Started by Vechs, Jul 15 2012 02:11 PM
39 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:52 PM
The point of the Urbanmech is that it's cheap. It's supposed to be an affordable battlemech for use in garrisoning cities and that's what it does. Sure you can put endosteel, a fusion engine, ferro armor and a ppc in it but it's then no longer a garrison mech. It's made for fighting off pirates (i.e. light mechs and vechicles) not your favorite medium or heavy.
In fact I wonder if the devs couldn't just balance matches around the total c-bill cost of each mech team.
In fact I wonder if the devs couldn't just balance matches around the total c-bill cost of each mech team.
#23
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- Urban Commando
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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:56 PM
On Top of beeing able to design a pretty hard hitting ambush mech for urban terrain that can jump away when threatened, the urbanmech has some more advantages, both covered by BT rules, and stuff only hinted at with artwork that would help making it a viable choice.
First, the Urbie artwork always hints at a 360° view cockpit, with viewports all around the top of the body, combined with a free-look cockpit, this would give the Urbie superior observer capabilities above any other design currently implemented.
Second, the Urbie has no arms, in BT rules this allows the Urbanmech to instantly turn around his weaponry and fire hat his back. This would probably not be instantly in MW:O but an extremly fast tracking speed with an extremly potent weapon combined with 360° view sounds like a pretty useful anti-scout enplacement and would also allow to get off a volley before retreating with jumpjets even when flanked.
First, the Urbie artwork always hints at a 360° view cockpit, with viewports all around the top of the body, combined with a free-look cockpit, this would give the Urbie superior observer capabilities above any other design currently implemented.
Second, the Urbie has no arms, in BT rules this allows the Urbanmech to instantly turn around his weaponry and fire hat his back. This would probably not be instantly in MW:O but an extremly fast tracking speed with an extremly potent weapon combined with 360° view sounds like a pretty useful anti-scout enplacement and would also allow to get off a volley before retreating with jumpjets even when flanked.
#24
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:56 AM
Well I think in games it has been simulated as having a 360 degree torso twist ability (which makes sense.)
But the torso twisting doesn't really come into play on the TT.
So if it does in fact get put into MW:O (and I see no reason why it won't considering it's a light ballistic mech that's VERY common for the time frame) it would probably have the 360 twist as a major selling point for the chassis.
But the torso twisting doesn't really come into play on the TT.
So if it does in fact get put into MW:O (and I see no reason why it won't considering it's a light ballistic mech that's VERY common for the time frame) it would probably have the 360 twist as a major selling point for the chassis.
#25
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- Survivor
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:12 AM
I never, ever, use XL engine when possible. Endo steel and Ferro-fibrous armor are the choice to make room for more stuff. This is even more true for light and medium mechs, that have limited equipment and plenty of empty location slots (one of the many loopholes in the construction system, imho).
XL engine in light mechs is the worst possible option, because torsos are the location you expect to be hit on more often. An XL engine triples your chance to have your mech out of game sooner than expected.
XL engine in light mechs is the worst possible option, because torsos are the location you expect to be hit on more often. An XL engine triples your chance to have your mech out of game sooner than expected.
#26
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- Little Helper
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:25 AM
i would try and get a bunch of people together and have them all run either ac/20 or gauss urbies and do a big line battle like in the napoleonic wars
#27
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- Giant Helper
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:27 AM
The point of 'theory crafted' is to take into account what the 'mech is supposed to be designed for, and making the configuration to do that job.
So what is an Urbanmech designed for? Cheap, easy to maintain urban defense. That is what drives this mech and why it even exists. So let's look at what that means...
Urban Defense. The hallmarks of urban defense fighting are mid to close-in street-to-street fighting and the holding of ground. Street-to-street fighting means obscurred line-of-sight beyond a few hundred meters at best, and the sudden appearance of enemy units, often at ranges of less than 40 meters. Holding of ground means that you don't move much from the place you are responsible for defending. This translates to a slow speed being acceptable if it opens room for maximum close-in firepower, as the unit isn't going anywhere and does need to deal with anything that it encounters before that enemy can break line of sight.
Cheap and Easy to Maintain. This is the other main point of the Urbanmech, and the primary reason it isn't discontinued and replaced by faster or heavier designs. So the point here is to avoid any expenses in building the mech than what you absolutely have to, and minimizing operational upkeep while still matching the needs of Urban Warfare. There are alot of things that look great for Urban Warfare that contradict the need to avoid any costs beyond the minimum needed to get the 'mech suitable for it's duties.
So how does this affect how you rebuild the Urbanmech? Let's look at a few examples....
XL Engines. These are perhaps the single most expensive upgrade a 'mech can receive, and putting one on an Urbanmech is as far from the concept of Cheap and Easy to Maintain as you can get. No Urbanmech featuring an XL engine can be considered realistic or in line with the 'mech's role, so this should be removed as a consideration in any rebuild. At the minimum.
Double Heat Sinks. Another high-cost upgrade that isn't needed when the 'mech can use single heat-sinks just as well and cheaper. If they do the job, why spend three or four times as much when the 'mech isn't supposed to expend C-Bills it doesn't need to? Avoid using these if at all possible.
Endosteel Internal Structure. Again, if you have cheaper materials that do the job, there isn't a need to up the cost by a multiple just for a savings of 1.5 tons. Avoid if at all possible.
Ferro-Fibrous Armor. You want to replace armor that works perfectly fine with much more expensive material that will only offer minimal increase in protection, and will have to be replaced -at an increased cost- after -EVERY- battle, even with a lone guy with a hunting rifle?? Avoid at all costs!
Engine (general): Every 'mech needs an engine to move, but an Urbanmech isn't supposed to move very far. The bigger the engine, the more expensive to build (and the larger the gyro needed) and the less you have for weapons. Pick the smallest engine you can that still lets you get from the hangar to the defense point nearby.
Jump Jets. In a city, jump jets can be very important. Both for moving between streets and for overcoming bridges and areas too weak to support a battlemech's weight. These fit into the catagory of 'Cheap' from the numbers of saved city structures not demolished by the 'mech just moving around.
Weaponry: This mech needs to punch hard quick, at close range. That means no minimum range, and maximum damage capability from the minimum number of weapons (more weapons=more cost, more maintenance, more parts needed to repair). SRMs might work, but they have a tendancy to cause -alot- of collateral damage with the missiles that don't hit their targets (you want to save the city, remember?). LRMs, AC/5, AC/2, all are out of consideration due to minimum ranges. The standard PPC might be an acceptable tradeoff in cost-cutting due to savings in ammo reloads, but the minimum range would be a serious problem and would work against this weapon being deployed on an Urbanmech. The Gauss Rifle's large damage potential is similarly offset by the high cost of the weapon and the minimum range.
What does that leave us with? Lasers are the ultimate in efficiency, not needing ammo and having no minimum range. The downside is that they don't do alot of damage and have a high heat requirement. Autocannon 10s do the damage needed, and have the range without sacrificing minimum range. Very light on heat, too. Autocannon 20s do twice the damage as an AC/10, and in the kind of fighting the Urbanmech is designed for, the lost range isn't as important.
Put all that together, and you find....the classic Urbanmech is actually the best theory-crafted design you can get, with the AC/20 variant only being second-choice because of the possibility of enemy aircraft appearing over rooftops beyond 270 meters from the Urbanmech. You can make some modifications, such as replacing the AC/10 for a pair of Large Lasers for underwater garrison posts, but the standard UM-R60 is still the best general configuration for what the mech is designed to be. About the only sensible modification is upgrading the AC/10 to an LB10X to gain more range, anti-aircraft capability, and increased ammo loadout, but the added expense of the gun would have to be balanced against this. Indeed, the field-modification of the UM-R63 did this, but chose to enhance the anti-infantry capabilities of the mech rather than add ammo the mech may not live long enough to use anyway. The UM-R63 is clearly a status symbol of wealthy cities, or a mech intended to encounter more threats on foot than the normal Urbanmech, rather than a cost-conscious, reliable garrison unit that squeezes the most combat firepower from every c-bill spent on it (as few as those are).
Any other modifications might make the mech a better military unit, but would also then begin to approach the cost of regular military battlemechs, leaving a question of why anyone would want to buy the Urbanmech instead? Mounting multiple medium lasers might be workable (except for MWOs hardpoint considerations), but would probably only be done if the paying parties couldn't just go and buy a better battlemech to mount them on.
My own two cents.
So what is an Urbanmech designed for? Cheap, easy to maintain urban defense. That is what drives this mech and why it even exists. So let's look at what that means...
Urban Defense. The hallmarks of urban defense fighting are mid to close-in street-to-street fighting and the holding of ground. Street-to-street fighting means obscurred line-of-sight beyond a few hundred meters at best, and the sudden appearance of enemy units, often at ranges of less than 40 meters. Holding of ground means that you don't move much from the place you are responsible for defending. This translates to a slow speed being acceptable if it opens room for maximum close-in firepower, as the unit isn't going anywhere and does need to deal with anything that it encounters before that enemy can break line of sight.
Cheap and Easy to Maintain. This is the other main point of the Urbanmech, and the primary reason it isn't discontinued and replaced by faster or heavier designs. So the point here is to avoid any expenses in building the mech than what you absolutely have to, and minimizing operational upkeep while still matching the needs of Urban Warfare. There are alot of things that look great for Urban Warfare that contradict the need to avoid any costs beyond the minimum needed to get the 'mech suitable for it's duties.
So how does this affect how you rebuild the Urbanmech? Let's look at a few examples....
XL Engines. These are perhaps the single most expensive upgrade a 'mech can receive, and putting one on an Urbanmech is as far from the concept of Cheap and Easy to Maintain as you can get. No Urbanmech featuring an XL engine can be considered realistic or in line with the 'mech's role, so this should be removed as a consideration in any rebuild. At the minimum.
Double Heat Sinks. Another high-cost upgrade that isn't needed when the 'mech can use single heat-sinks just as well and cheaper. If they do the job, why spend three or four times as much when the 'mech isn't supposed to expend C-Bills it doesn't need to? Avoid using these if at all possible.
Endosteel Internal Structure. Again, if you have cheaper materials that do the job, there isn't a need to up the cost by a multiple just for a savings of 1.5 tons. Avoid if at all possible.
Ferro-Fibrous Armor. You want to replace armor that works perfectly fine with much more expensive material that will only offer minimal increase in protection, and will have to be replaced -at an increased cost- after -EVERY- battle, even with a lone guy with a hunting rifle?? Avoid at all costs!
Engine (general): Every 'mech needs an engine to move, but an Urbanmech isn't supposed to move very far. The bigger the engine, the more expensive to build (and the larger the gyro needed) and the less you have for weapons. Pick the smallest engine you can that still lets you get from the hangar to the defense point nearby.
Jump Jets. In a city, jump jets can be very important. Both for moving between streets and for overcoming bridges and areas too weak to support a battlemech's weight. These fit into the catagory of 'Cheap' from the numbers of saved city structures not demolished by the 'mech just moving around.
Weaponry: This mech needs to punch hard quick, at close range. That means no minimum range, and maximum damage capability from the minimum number of weapons (more weapons=more cost, more maintenance, more parts needed to repair). SRMs might work, but they have a tendancy to cause -alot- of collateral damage with the missiles that don't hit their targets (you want to save the city, remember?). LRMs, AC/5, AC/2, all are out of consideration due to minimum ranges. The standard PPC might be an acceptable tradeoff in cost-cutting due to savings in ammo reloads, but the minimum range would be a serious problem and would work against this weapon being deployed on an Urbanmech. The Gauss Rifle's large damage potential is similarly offset by the high cost of the weapon and the minimum range.
What does that leave us with? Lasers are the ultimate in efficiency, not needing ammo and having no minimum range. The downside is that they don't do alot of damage and have a high heat requirement. Autocannon 10s do the damage needed, and have the range without sacrificing minimum range. Very light on heat, too. Autocannon 20s do twice the damage as an AC/10, and in the kind of fighting the Urbanmech is designed for, the lost range isn't as important.
Put all that together, and you find....the classic Urbanmech is actually the best theory-crafted design you can get, with the AC/20 variant only being second-choice because of the possibility of enemy aircraft appearing over rooftops beyond 270 meters from the Urbanmech. You can make some modifications, such as replacing the AC/10 for a pair of Large Lasers for underwater garrison posts, but the standard UM-R60 is still the best general configuration for what the mech is designed to be. About the only sensible modification is upgrading the AC/10 to an LB10X to gain more range, anti-aircraft capability, and increased ammo loadout, but the added expense of the gun would have to be balanced against this. Indeed, the field-modification of the UM-R63 did this, but chose to enhance the anti-infantry capabilities of the mech rather than add ammo the mech may not live long enough to use anyway. The UM-R63 is clearly a status symbol of wealthy cities, or a mech intended to encounter more threats on foot than the normal Urbanmech, rather than a cost-conscious, reliable garrison unit that squeezes the most combat firepower from every c-bill spent on it (as few as those are).
Any other modifications might make the mech a better military unit, but would also then begin to approach the cost of regular military battlemechs, leaving a question of why anyone would want to buy the Urbanmech instead? Mounting multiple medium lasers might be workable (except for MWOs hardpoint considerations), but would probably only be done if the paying parties couldn't just go and buy a better battlemech to mount them on.
My own two cents.
Edited by Jakob Knight, 16 July 2012 - 05:45 AM.
#28
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- 902 posts
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:35 AM
Vechs, on 15 July 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:
I think it will have the armor to endure team fights, unlike other light mechs. At 7 tons of armor, it has more armor than some mediums.
Side question: Why do so many people only pay attention to the stock variants' low armour? Don't all mechs have the potential to have very thin or very thick based on how you customize them? So what's the point of harping on the stock variant?
#29
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- Giant Helper
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:22 AM
William Petersen, on 16 July 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:
Side question: Why do so many people only pay attention to the stock variants' low armour? Don't all mechs have the potential to have very thin or very thick based on how you customize them? So what's the point of harping on the stock variant?
Because alot of players only have experience in Heavy or Assault 'mechs, and can't understand anything with less than 160 pts of armor. A Light mech doing the job of an Assault is an alien way of looking at things, especially if all they have ever played is the video games. In a way, MWO reinforces this by removing the kind of considerations that led to the Urbanmech in the first place (limited availability of service facilities and 'mechs in general, cost restrictions, weight limits, ect).
#30
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- Legendary Founder
- 600 posts
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- LocationSpace Australia
Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:40 AM
I want my urbanmech to role down hills if it gets knocked over 
In all seriousness I fully agree with Knights breakdown of the components and needs of the urbanmech. If I do ever choose to pilot an Urbie, unlikely as that will be, I will probably stick with an autocannon and some backup lasers. It really depends on what hard points are available and how well the ac's perform, but I think I will be choosing options which stick with the canon. A cheap urbie is a cheap to repair urbie.
Edited for spelling, should know by now not to post at 1am in the morning.
In all seriousness I fully agree with Knights breakdown of the components and needs of the urbanmech. If I do ever choose to pilot an Urbie, unlikely as that will be, I will probably stick with an autocannon and some backup lasers. It really depends on what hard points are available and how well the ac's perform, but I think I will be choosing options which stick with the canon. A cheap urbie is a cheap to repair urbie.
Edited for spelling, should know by now not to post at 1am in the morning.
Edited by Alymbic, 16 July 2012 - 06:47 AM.
#31
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- 100 posts
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- LocationPortland Oregon
Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:09 AM
so apparently the best thing to do with an urbanmech that you all so dearly love...is to turn it into another mech entirely. Congrats you're all very silly.
#32
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- Legendary Founder
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:30 AM
Would they be forced to stay with the canon Varients?
Best Urbie mod I ever saw changed out the AC/10 and small laser for PPC and 2 LRM-5s. All the mechs seem to have varients that you can unlock so the devs could get creative.
Best Urbie mod I ever saw changed out the AC/10 and small laser for PPC and 2 LRM-5s. All the mechs seem to have varients that you can unlock so the devs could get creative.
#33
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- Mercenary Rank 5
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 08:53 AM
I can make it explode thats enough for me....
#34
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- Overlord
- 302 posts
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- LocationVancouver (Pacific Standard Time Zone)
Posted 16 July 2012 - 09:16 AM
Vechs, on 15 July 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:
That's why I went with the PPC over a Large Laser. They said it made sense for LRMs to have a minimum range, but they couldn't really justify the energy weapons or the guns having minimum ranges, so I think PPCs should work at all ranges in MWO.
Actually, I'm next to certain they said it made sense for the PPC but not for the projectile weapons (ie gauss, AC/#s, etc).
The PPC has a minimum range due to technological safety concerns (splash-back) but that safety can be turned off if you're willing to risk reasonable odds of your own weapon hurting you. At least, that's how it worked TT if I recall correctly.
#35
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- Overlord
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 09:20 AM
Vechs, on 15 July 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:
Posted an Urbllander build. The 3.5 tons of armor make me very nervous, but apparently a Jenner runs around stock with 4 tons of armor, and nobody scoffs at that, so maybe it's fine for it's role as a dedicated light sniper.
The biggest risk for the Urbie with light armor is that all your eggs are in that one basket (arm). If that gets picked off due to light armor your attack options are drastically reduced. DFA & charging can be your only option if you really went all in on the 'one big gun' approach.
#36
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:59 AM
Redshift2k5, on 15 July 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:
Probably lots of useful builds you could make, once you bring the engine up to, erm, speed
Making use of ton-saving upgrades could certainly turn it from a one trick pony into a much faster, more versatile mech. Try an endo-steel chassis build in RemLab?
Making use of ton-saving upgrades could certainly turn it from a one trick pony into a much faster, more versatile mech. Try an endo-steel chassis build in RemLab?
Frankly, I think any Urbie refit that ups the engine is, how to say, missing the point? Cheating?
I don't understand the fuss - even the canon lore says the Urbanmech was not a combat mech. More of a cheap garrison unit, anti-infantry / anti-air. Though, again, it had great firepower for its size, and could be / was used to great effect in close quarters situations.
#37
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- Giant Helper
- 1,286 posts
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:04 PM
Hax DB Header, on 16 July 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:
The biggest risk for the Urbie with light armor is that all your eggs are in that one basket (arm). If that gets picked off due to light armor your attack options are drastically reduced. DFA & charging can be your only option if you really went all in on the 'one big gun' approach.
On the other hand, you have to keep from thinking of this like a Heavy or Assault. The Urbanmech is a light mech that is going to be dropped fast by anything larger than itself if it can't kill the enemy first. It is designed to have a punch completely out of proportion to what a Light mech can normally load simply because the designers knew that it -has- to finish fights fast.
To that end, it is perfectly acceptable to have a 'single big gun', since that is the only way this mech will survive the encounter. If it tries to be survivable, it's going to die without taking the enemy with it. Unlike a Heavy or Assault, this mech cannot sustain any damage past its armor, so it doesn't matter if it only has one gun. It won't be around after it starts taking internal damage anyway, so make sure your first shot counts!
#38
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- Knight Errant
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:15 PM
Raj, on 15 July 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:
The point of the Urbanmech is that it's cheap. It's supposed to be an affordable battlemech for use in garrisoning cities and that's what it does. Sure you can put endosteel, a fusion engine, ferro armor and a ppc in it but it's then no longer a garrison mech. It's made for fighting off pirates (i.e. light mechs and vechicles) not your favorite medium or heavy.
In fact I wonder if the devs couldn't just balance matches around the total c-bill cost of each mech team.
In fact I wonder if the devs couldn't just balance matches around the total c-bill cost of each mech team.
You're being reasonable. We won't be having with that sort of tomfoolery around here.
#39
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- Bridesmaid
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:47 PM
Replace the small laser with a PPC, rip out the cannon entirely, up the engine. The Capellan Confederation's cheap knock-off of the Panther. 
The 3025-tech AC20 variant is a scary beast for 1-shot punch, but 1 shot is all it gets before the other side rip it into chaff. I wouldn't waste advanced tech on it until the Light Gauss Rifle comes out.
The 3025-tech AC20 variant is a scary beast for 1-shot punch, but 1 shot is all it gets before the other side rip it into chaff. I wouldn't waste advanced tech on it until the Light Gauss Rifle comes out.
#40
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- 902 posts
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:37 PM
Jakob Knight, on 16 July 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:
Because alot of players only have experience in Heavy or Assault 'mechs, and can't understand anything with less than 160 pts of armor. A Light mech doing the job of an Assault is an alien way of looking at things, especially if all they have ever played is the video games. In a way, MWO reinforces this by removing the kind of considerations that led to the Urbanmech in the first place (limited availability of service facilities and 'mechs in general, cost restrictions, weight limits, ect).
My point was that just because a stock JR7-D carries only 3.5 tons of armour doesn't mean I can't drop the SRM-4 and ammo to pull it up to 7.5 tons of armour.
I found it amusing/ironic to echo his phrasing when saying you can do exactly the same thing w.r.t. engine on the Urbie in questioning his extolling the virtue of armour which is just as easily able to be modified as engine (probably moreso, since as I understand it, you have to buy a whole new engine which is very expensive).
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