27 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple question. Will the Phoenix Hawk be mediocre much like the Vindicator is now? Before your raise your pitchforks, your torches and your mob please consider a few things.

1.Limited hard points on multiple variants. 5 of the 7 are limited to 3-4 Energy hard points with the rest being Ballistic (on a 45 tonner) or 2 Missile hard points on the PXH-R. Only the PXH-1K or PXH-2 will be meta with either 8 energy hard points or 6 with ECM AND JJ. The PXH-2 will likely get the least quirks.

2.Geometry and Size. This thing is almost as large as a Griffin and though it does benefit from its humanoid shape it has big jetpack pylons that stick out and will be easy to hit from almost any angle!

3.Speed. The Phoenix Hawk will undoubtedly be faster than the Vindicator because it has a much higher engine cap will it be able to exploit this if isn't XL friendly or attempts to make use of its Ballistic hard points?

[Wintersdark]

I think it'll be mediocre, but I preordered anyways. I just love the mech is all

But it's looking hardpoint starved, if fast. May well have its role, given its speed and agility, but dunno that it'll be a "good" mech

[Bud Crue]

I don't think you should think of it in terms of a Vindicator necessarily. I see it more as akin to the stereo type of the Cicada: an oversized light. Need to play it fast, which means a lot of tonnage to engine, and so weapons and loadouts are almost of a secondary consideration. Sure there will be some drawbacks to the variants with fewer hard points but it will be the mobility that defines this mech more than any particular weapons loadout (at least that is my take on it).

[cazidin]

Bud Crue, on 17 May 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

I don't think you should think of it in terms of a Vindicator necessarily. I see it more as akin to the stereo type of the Cicada: an oversized light. Need to play it fast, which means a lot of tonnage to engine, and so weapons and loadouts are almost of a secondary consideration. Sure there will be some drawbacks to the variants with fewer hard points but it will be the mobility that defines this mech more than any particular weapons loadout (at least that is my take on it).

The Cicada is getting rescaled, as far as I know, to be closer to a light mech in size. The Vindicator is the big 45 tonner with few hard points and a low engine cap. You can certainly play it fast if you fit a big engine in there but only 2 of the 7 variants can make good use of energy weapons. The others will be left with 2 or 3 LPL, 2 PPCs, or medium lasers and ballistics with one exception. Being a big but mobile target with few weapons can only get you so far in todays meta.

[Metus regem]

Either way, I'm going to enjoy it, only thing that would be better would be if it had LAM capabilities....

[Alan Davion]

cazidin, on 17 May 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple question. Will the Phoenix Hawk be mediocre much like the Vindicator is now? Before your raise your pitchforks, your torches and your mob please consider a few things.

1.Limited hard points on multiple variants. 5 of the 7 are limited to 3-4 Energy hard points with the rest being Ballistic (on a 45 tonner) or 2 Missile hard points on the PXH-R. Only the PXH-1K or PXH-2 will be meta with either 8 energy hard points or 6 with ECM AND JJ. The PXH-2 will likely get the least quirks.

2.Geometry and Size. This thing is almost as large as a Griffin and though it does benefit from its humanoid shape it has big jetpack pylons that stick out and will be easy to hit from almost any angle!

3.Speed. The Phoenix Hawk will undoubtedly be faster than the Vindicator because it has a much higher engine cap will it be able to exploit this if isn't XL friendly or attempts to make use of its Ballistic hard points?

Point 1. I imagine we'll see a lot 1Ks and 2s around the field simply due to the laser vomit meta. I do agree that most of the variants seem very underwhelming. The 1, 1b and 3S are almost identical. We can infer that everyone will drop the machineguns and ammo in favor of more armor or engine.

Point 2. I agree that the jumpjet inlets will likely be easily targeted, and they will likely affect the rear torsos. However, as to it being XL friendly or not, I don't believe we've seen enough images of it in the game engine yet to make that determination.

Point 3. Plays into point 2. We just don't know enough about its actual in-game geometry just yet.

[Hit the Deck]

ITT: "hardpoint starved" means can't boat medium (pulse) lasers!

[TheMisled]

3-4 Laser hardpoints on a medium is too little?! In case you hadn't noticed, hardpoint inflation is kinda becoming a problem in MWO (especially for clan omnimechs). compared to the vindi, it's looking a lot better in terms of hardpoints which I found was the main problem with it (still managed to work around that though). It seems people only want to have moar guns to alpha vomit at the enemy to make up for the lack of any real skill nowadays.

[Widowmaker1981]

Only the best variant matters, so compare the PHX-2 to the VND-1AA

I think the Pixie craps all over it. Higher engine cap, more energy hardpoints, ECM.

[Gas Guzzler]

If the 1B has decent quirks and can do 3 ER LL (all on the right side) with ECM It will have a role for sure.

[cazidin]

Hit the Deck, on 17 May 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

ITT: "hardpoint starved" means can't boat medium (pulse) lasers!

I did say that it can go for LPL or PPCs but that it'll have to take a smaller engine, negating its high engine cap advantage, or fewer heat sinks. Most people think of this as the IS's big brother to the Clan's Arctic Cheetah. The variant that can take 6 ML or 6 MPL may be seen more often than the variants that cannot.

e1itegamerpro, on 17 May 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

3-4 Laser hardpoints on a medium is too little?! In case you hadn't noticed, hardpoint inflation is kinda becoming a problem in MWO (especially for clan omnimechs). compared to the vindi, it's looking a lot better in terms of hardpoints which I found was the main problem with it (still managed to work around that though). It seems people only want to have moar guns to alpha vomit at the enemy to make up for the lack of any real skill nowadays.

I don't want to get into a hardpoint inflation argument. I'll only say that the Vindicator is mediocre because of its limited hardpoint selection and leave it at that. (Plus the Vindicators size, geometry, low engine cap, etc.)

Widowmaker1981, on 17 May 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

Only the best variant matters, so compare the PHX-2 to the VND-1AA

I think the Pixie craps all over it. Higher engine cap, more energy hardpoints, ECM.

True but doesn't that prove one of my points? That the Phoenix Hawk has 2 good variants and the rest are mediocre.

[Lorian Sunrider]

I think people have unrealistic expectations for a 45 ton mech. BJ's fault I suppose.

But generally speaking, you have to pick two out of three things. Armor, Speed, Firepower. The PH is the latter two, so you have to play to its strengths. It's not going to be a brawler, but a hopefully well balanced support mech.

As said already, play it like a slightly better armed and slightly slower light mech, and you should have a decent time. I can very easily see it be a pop-tart style mech, with a Ballistic weapon and a PPC or LL's.

[SmoothCriminal]

the 6E ECM version will rule supreme, the others will be pretty mediocre as pointed out above (at least until there are some new weapons to shake up the meta - probably some time in 2025).

[Nyte Kitsune]

Going to use it as its intended, a Medium Class Recon/Scout mech. It's not a Brawler, It's a "Find the other team" mech and then draw off the enemies scout/recon team and deal with them with your recon team. Should be reasonably effective in Scouting in FW and It's being put in my Drop Deck for FW as my "Light" (Run 3 Heavies and a Medium typically or 1 Assault, Heavy, Med, Light). Now, If PGI forgets my handgun on the other hand, then I'll be cancelling my Pre-Order, as that the one iconic feature of the PH that it "Needs" to have.. not there, not interested.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm guessing the PXH should be a little bit more capable Vindicator.

I'm guessing they will be about the same size and will have similar weapon positioning. They should also be about the same in the durability department as well.

The PXH luckily will have an ECM variant to help survivability and a MASC variant for some nice speed. Those two are probably it's real ace in the hole.

Regardless, ECM helps stay undetected, but it can't help you when your hit. 45 ton mediums are very fragile and both the Vindi and PXH (having similar weapon placement, size, and torso type) will be just as vulnerable to incoming fire.

Overall, I think it will be a fragile medium that some pilots will overestimate it's ability and have a hard time with it. However, if you are a Vindicator pilot, this mech should come across as a hotrod.

All this is theory crafting anyway since we don't have quirks and haven't seen it in action yet. Still, I think I made a reasonable prediction for a 45 ton humanoid medium with mid/low height weapons.

Ultimately time will tell.

[Gyrok]

I truthfully doubt that the PXH ends up as another Vindi.

[Brizna]

Most people mock the Vindicator but 1R with STD engine, MPLs and 1SRM6A is a nasty surprise in close quarters.

[Alistair Winter]

If only there was a variant with 8 energy hardpoints or 6 energy hardpoints and ECM. If only there were variants with 235 max engine rating, instead of 355.

Alas, this will not be another Vindicator.

[Widowmaker1981]

I see the PHX-2 being nice with XL325, 6JJ, 6xML, ECM + some DHS

PHX-1B could work with something like 3x(ER)LL or maybe, because it comes with an ERPPC and so might get PPC quirks, it could be a very nice fast ECM twin PPC poptart,

i imagine that the PHX-1K could work with some kind of BJ-1X-esque loadout, 6xML + 2MPL with a big engine, or possibly with a standard.

The rest seem pretty junky, including all the cbill variants. Dont think its at all worth spending more then $35.

But as a chassis, overall taking the best and ignoring the rest? I think it will be good, of course depending on quirks because its an IS 45 ton mech.

[Bud Crue]

cazidin, on 17 May 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

Being a big but mobile target with few weapons can only get you so far in todays meta.

Well if it's not meta why bother then right? (eye role).

Seriously though, if you are going to run this thing as laser boat, ala the BJ-1x, then that means you will be just as slow and to me a PH is not a brawler. It's a dancer (even if it is a big one). So to my way of thinking if you want to play to this mechs strengths that will be to make it as fast and as mobile as possible (in most cases) with guns being almost a secondary consideration. The variants with lots of laser points I expect will be played as large Firestarters, with the rest will play similar to Enforcers with a bit more maneuverability. I just don't see any being particularly Vindicator like.