27 replies to this topic

[Derek_Wildstar]

is it me or is the laser vomit insta-crit CT IS mech builds becoming so overwhelming?

it really takes no skill anymore for IS pilots to fight, just build laser vomit mech and push the button to fire. if you hit your target its 1/2 cored or insta-critted. Clan mech will usually overheat before it can do much damage and IS mech finishes you off or their second alpha volly does which over comes first. or you have 12 man that just rush and laser vomit you and just sheer number of laser vomit it doesn't take long to wipe out any resistance.

well aren't you suppost to play to win?

well yes you are but its not fun to play against such overwhelming firepower that even a good caller wouldn't help much.

its really plain and simple ..

IS MECH vs CLAN MECH firepower at once and able to repeat sustained and right now the IS MECHS have that hands down. IS MECH pilots don't care they are winning with ease they wouldn't care if they win 10000000 games in a row, but how can you have any pride knowing its not you its your mech that doing most of the winning for you. not your skill cause you really don't need much in these Laser Vomit IS Mechs.

[MrZimny]

Even IS vs IS is the same. Too many "skill builds" as I like to call them. Seems that laser boating has taken over the meta and they're completely overpowering. What can be done about it?

[justcallme A S H]

How is a Clan 52 point alpha any different to a IS 52 point alpha in terms of outright damage?

Clan is hotter, has more range.
IS is cooler, has less range.

Either way I can 2x alpha from a BL-KNT or a TBR and after two, it's cooldown time (most maps). TBR actually cools faster due to more HS but the IS can get a 3rd alpha in sooner as it's not as hot.

That said on hotter maps I don't run laser vomit on Clan anyway. SRM/Ballistics and brawl the heavens outta IS Laser vomit, I can pound a vomit BL-KNT with a TBR Non-Laser brawler very easily because they get too hot too fast, twist through the damage and let em have it.

As Merc, I've played both sides. I don't think one is any more "OP" than the other at my play level... Just gotta play to the strengths and use the range to the advantage.

Edited by R31Nismoid, 16 May 2016 - 04:22 PM.

[MechaJesus]

This is the OP:

[Derek_Wildstar]

MechaJesus, on 16 May 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

This is the OP:

spoken like a real IS pilot

[xX PUG Xx]

Having pilotted both A LOT, there is very little difference between either tech.

Both are capable of what you are describing and both are as susceptable to being OP in the hands of a skilled pilot. The thing is that no matter what is done, there will always be examples like this and there will always be 'Mechs or builds that (in the hands of a skilled player) are essentially OP.

However, I do wonder about the seemingly "blanket" -10% Duration quirk on IS 'Mechs. When taken alongside Clan tech having longer burntimes it does appear a little unfair.

[Nomex 99]

Edited by Nomex 09, 16 May 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Guess that doesn't come in an english version?

[Gattsus]

if I had a penny for each laser vomit build I've seen...

[Tarl Cabot]

It only seems that way, especially playing against comp teams, focus fire, synergy builds, etc. And in the beginning we did not have near the number of mechs with large number of energy hard-points. Even with that, those mechs truly shined in comp/CW/FW play.

When it started, IS said the same thing about Clan laser vomit.

MWO needs a more involved heat scale.

• Reduce heat sink overhead so that there is a smaller return when increasing the base heat cap.
  
• Review DHS workings based on the previous change.
  
• Intermediate thresholds at 30%-60%-90% (marked on heatscale) that reduces a mech's speed/agility in a similar manner as current cXL lost torso movement penalty (said penalty would be removed cXL), start with 15%-30%-45%
  
• Re-evaluate both tech weapons, starting with energy weapons - range/damage/heat - then introduce weapon quirks for "flavor" for both techs. Just remember, optimal clan mechs generally can equip more energy weapon across multiple variants/omnipods vs specific IS variants.
  
• Increase cooldown timers for long range energy weapons-such weapons have a huge energy draw-heat output, base Solaris/previous MPBT/etc had longer cooldown timers - should be closer to GR timings.
  
• PGI should simply triple armor/structural points vs the current double points + structural quirks, this allows time for the other items to be worked out while slightly increasing TTK.
  
• Some serioius tech issues should be reworked - isXL engine acting similar to cXL engine with side torso loss but with a higher heat penalty (and movement penalty until/unless a fuller functioning heatscale is added.
  
• Rework Ghost heat - if still necesarry, from mega penalty heat to micro-ghost heat function.
  
• Make mechs with low slung arm weapons more viable by allowing an arm to be temporarily raised up, either forward or slightly forward/sideways.
  
• other stuff...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 May 2016 - 10:09 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

R31Nismoid, on 16 May 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How is a Clan 52 point alpha any different to a IS 52 point alpha in terms of outright damage?

Clan is hotter, has more range.
IS is cooler, has less range.

Either way I can 2x alpha from a BL-KNT or a TBR and after two, it's cooldown time (most maps). TBR actually cools faster due to more HS but the IS can get a 3rd alpha in sooner as it's not as hot.

That said on hotter maps I don't run laser vomit on Clan anyway. SRM/Ballistics and brawl the heavens outta IS Laser vomit, I can pound a vomit BL-KNT with a TBR Non-Laser brawler very easily because they get too hot too fast, twist through the damage and let em have it.

As Merc, I've played both sides. I don't think one is any more "OP" than the other at my play level... Just gotta play to the strengths and use the range to the advantage.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying R31 there is one crucial factor you are missing. I do believe that balance is closer than it has ever been but there is one elephant in the room you missed in your description of clan lazor barf vs IS lazor barf, duration. Despite the lack of range on IS part I do think the lazor duration gives them an edge, specially in the large pulse and quirks area.

[Hunter Tseng]

I have to agree the current situation that the IS laser builds are kinda devastating...
Since they can carry 3 large lasers without ghost heat and have lesser burn time, plus the chassis quirks of even MOAR lesser burn time it does kinda hurt...
In FW the map designs are hardly long range maps... except for maybe Boreal Vault, most of the maps are around 400 - 500 mtr engagement range so I find it difficult to try to counter an IS death ball...

On the flip side, I have been on certain games with good leadership we seem to stomp the IS team, maybe they were even more noob than us or maybe its just me that is still a pug and rely on the enemy team being pugs worser than us

[ChaoticUrlond]

They need to implement reflective armor or the other armors from past mechwarrior games into the game. So that way we can change the armor to help increase survivability against this laser meta. I would also like to see the Ballistic armor as well.

[fbj]

R31Nismoid, on 16 May 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

How is a Clan 52 point alpha any different to a IS 52 point alpha in terms of outright damage?

Clan is hotter, has more range.
IS is cooler, has less range.

Either way I can 2x alpha from a BL-KNT or a TBR and after two, it's cooldown time (most maps). TBR actually cools faster due to more HS but the IS can get a 3rd alpha in sooner as it's not as hot.

That said on hotter maps I don't run laser vomit on Clan anyway. SRM/Ballistics and brawl the heavens outta IS Laser vomit, I can pound a vomit BL-KNT with a TBR Non-Laser brawler very easily because they get too hot too fast, twist through the damage and let em have it.

As Merc, I've played both sides. I don't think one is any more "OP" than the other at my play level... Just gotta play to the strengths and use the range to the advantage.

Though the quirks on the Black Knight offers -15% Laser Duration. Which makes a big difference in a 52 PT alpha of a IS mech vs a clan mech.

[Black Ivan]

IS lasers have much shorter duration, add in Quirks and IS lasers nearly become Pin Point. Black Knight and Grasshopper are at the moment the peak of laser vomit.

[Kin3ticX]

imo none of this is accidental but infact intentional by PGI

The PPC Gauss, PPC Autocannon and poptart metas were dumped in favor of a hitscan dominated meta. At the height of the poptart meta, we were basically classifying mechs more or less DOA just based on whether they had JJs or were just groundpounders

Lasers skill scale much better than projectiles and thus are more inclusive than the old projectile everything meta.

A miss with a PPC is a total miss while you can partially chingas up a laser shot and still correct for partial damage.

The laser vomit meta pretty much got going right after the Clan wave 1 invasion in mid 2014 and was improved on the IS side when IS larges were all ghost heat up-limited from 2 to 3 lasers.

The burntime on the IS LPL sort of makes it like a pseudo snubnose PPC, especially if there is a burn time quirk on top of the normal burn time.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 May 2016 - 11:14 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Carl Vickers, on 16 May 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Whilst I agree with what you are saying R31 there is one crucial factor you are missing. I do believe that balance is closer than it has ever been but there is one elephant in the room you missed in your description of clan lazor barf vs IS lazor barf, duration. Despite the lack of range on IS part I do think the lazor duration gives them an edge, specially in the large pulse and quirks area.

Indeed it does play a part for sure.

But again it does level out against the extra 235M of max damage (365M vs 600M) range without including a targeting comp or modules etc into account.

235M is approaching SRM max range. That is no small distance. At 700m a BK is only giving you a tickle with LPL (or ERL max) yet you can be doing almost full damage with C-LPL

[MrZimny]

Tarl Cabot, on 16 May 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

[*]Make mechs with low slung arm weapons more viable by allowing an arm to be temporarily raised up, either forward or slightly forward/sideways.

I very much agree with this idea. Could be a toggle option like missile doors.

[Widowmaker1981]

Tarl Cabot, on 16 May 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

It only seems that way, especially playing against comp teams, focus fire, synergy builds, etc. And in the beginning we did not have near the number of mechs with large number of energy hard-points. Even with that, those mechs truly shined in comp/CW/FW play.

When it started, IS said the same thing about Clan laser vomit.

MWO needs a more involved heat scale.

• Reduce heat sink overhead so that there is a smaller return when increasing the base heat cap.
  
• Review DHS workings based on the previous change.
  
• Intermediate thresholds at 30%-60%-90% (marked on heatscale) that reduces a mech's speed/agility in a similar manner as current cXL lost torso movement penalty (said penalty would be removed cXL), start with 15%-30%-45%

So just looking at this bit.. you are suggesting to reduce the total heatcap, and then put heat effects at 30% of the way up.. since heat caps right now are 60-85 ish, id assume you are taking a total value of no more than 50. 30% of 50 is 15 heat. So basically, you are suggesting that firing a single ERPPC, ever. from cold and stopped, should reduce your movement speed by 15%. In other words you are saying that the only weapons ever used in this game should be AC5/Gauss, because generating any heat would completely screw you up.

[Valar13]

ChaoticUrlond, on 16 May 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

They need to implement reflective armor or the other armors from past mechwarrior games into the game. So that way we can change the armor to help increase survivability against this laser meta. I would also like to see the Ballistic armor as well.

3060 tech.