34 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2016 - 01:47 AM, said:

Nope. Shutdown is there for a reason. You go over 100% - you blow up. Be it 2 seconds sooner or 2 seconds later. Only thing PGI needs to add is a small chance to blow up your ammo and weapons while going above 90% heat, along with all the speed/agility penalties of running with high heat.

We had ammo explosions at 90% heat before. Randomly instakilling a 'Mech because it has a ballistic or missile hardpoint turned out rather unpopular.

Quote

All the posts asking for changes regarding override claim that their suggesting will reduce the "exploiting" of the override, while in reality if implemented they'll skyrocket it. Tell me how can people "exploit" override when they know that there is a chance they'll blow up right away? This isn't exploiting at all, this is pure gambling.

Now what this guy suggested will allow people to exploit it beyond belief. I got a SCR with 30 DHS and 12 SPLs, so I'll just run the override at 150% heat for a couple minutes while my DHS's are slowly blowing themselves up coz I got a crapload of them, then a minute or so more while my SPL's are doing the same. Yep ... limited exploiting for sure.

Fkn get real. Don't want to die, don't press "O". You pressed "O" - get ready to blow yourself up instantly.

Overheat should be far more complex than it actually is. A 'Mech at 50% overheat shouldn't be operating at 100% efficiency, and a 'Mech past it's safety limits should be suffering equipment failures left and right, but -not- instantly disintegrating because RNG decided that your head should explode on a forced override.

Have 100%+ overheat deliver random 10-point hits to equipment, one per second. Properly model the heat scale to include reduced agility/movement % penalties/ammo damage (not explosions, merely small amounts of damage per second to random ammo locations with the usual 10% chance of explosion IF the location is completely destroyed). Don't put in the "avoid shutdown" roulette bit, just the auto-shutdown (or override mode) at 100% overheat.

Fix the damage modeling, it's been incomplete from the beginning of the game. Engine damage (increased heat load from shielding going poof). Gyro damage (reduced climb, jumping-style crosshair jiggle from instability). Sensor damage (HUD and map features malfunction/disabled). Life support and cockpit damage (Life support dead? Cockpit starts taking damage from high levels of overheat, dead cockpit = kill.). Actuator damage (reduced traverse on arm crosshairs/arm crosshairs frozen to match torso for arm damage, reduced ground speed/climb/agility for leg damage).

And put that into the damage pool for 100%+ overheat damage. It's far past time for a minimally viable product damage model to get completed properly, and even further past time to properly model overheat.

[Tarl Cabot]

Rekkon, on 19 May 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Internal components have their own health, quiaff? Rather than IF(overheat) THEN (X% chance of something completely exploding) ELSE (100% fine nothing to see here move along), how about a system that generates a certain number of points of overheat damage per tick and randomly distributes them to your internal components? If you want to represent certain things being more susceptible to overheat damage, they get a higher likelihood of being assigned a point of damage.

This would prevent those frakking annoying cases where you put a pinky toe over 100% heat for a third of a second and have a component immediately scream "my organs!" and explode. A small amount of overheat a few times would be highly unlikely to affect your performance at all. Redline things too much or too often, and your mech starts eating itself from the inside out. Now when components start to pop, you have only yourself to blame instead of getting randomly smote by RNGesus.

Agreed, no if, but review below for a modified heat scale setup.

Quote

Fix the damage modeling, it's been incomplete from the beginning of the game. Engine damage (increased heat load from shielding going poof). Gyro damage (reduced climb, jumping-style crosshair jiggle from instability). Sensor damage (HUD and map features malfunction/disabled). Life support and cockpit damage (Life support dead? Cockpit starts taking damage from high levels of overheat, dead cockpit = kill.). Actuator damage (reduced traverse on arm crosshairs/arm crosshairs frozen to match torso for arm damage, reduced ground speed/climb/agility for leg damage).

Override and max cap. Why have an non-existent heat scale UNTIL hitting the 100% mark? Why only one override? Why have the ability to bypass the max when the pilot would also be cooking...?

I do like the idea that heat damage hit the heatsinks and other components instead of the internal structure, or less damage to the IS in addition of other components. But what to do prior reaching that point? Something that new players are able to grasp some idea of without having to do major research at other sites?

Heat Scale 0-50-75-90ish-(100)-105%max

• 50%: 10-15% mech speed/agility reduction, similar to current cXL loss torso penalty - Myomer fibers/bundles efficiency decreases
  
• 75%: 20-25% speed/agility reduction
  
• 90ish%: 30-35% speed/agility reduction / soft override-works like current override setting, toggle on/off
  
• 100%: marked incur damage beyond this point
  
• 105%: hard mech shutdown - no override possible - component damage in progress after passing the 100% mark

So basically, make the 90ish% mark the threshold that a pilot needs to decide if he fires his max alpha, if he does not hit the override, there is still a possibility of component damage if that heat spike pushes it over 100%. Or does he hit the override but also hit chain fire so he can fire just one weapon, see if it pushes it, his mech slows down even more, lets bail out!!!.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 May 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Pjwned]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

No it is not. If you ask me, any shot you take with any weapon while already above 100% heat in override should result in death.

Why not just take it further then and have your mech guaranteed to instantly explode if you hit the button over 100% then? Oh I guess that means there's literally no benefit to the override button? LOL WHO CARES

Why stop there actually? If you hit the override button ever, even below 100% heat, it's guaranteed, instant mech destruction. Want to be real hardcore? If you even think about hitting that button then your account is erased.

[PhoenixFire55]

Pjwned, on 21 May 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Why not just take it further then and have your mech guaranteed to instantly explode if you hit the button over 100% then? Oh I guess that means there's literally no benefit to the override button? LOL WHO CARES

Why stop there actually? If you hit the override button ever, even below 100% heat, it's guaranteed, instant mech destruction. Want to be real hardcore? If you even think about hitting that button then your account is erased.

There is a difference between overriding at 85% to make that ONE shot that sends you to 102% heat and overriding to continue shooting non-stop at 105% and above. If you fail to grasp that difference that really isn't my problem.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Adding critical damage is a sound idea (infact i would for combining both crit damage and internal damage so overheating and continuing is exceptionally punishing) The only change i would do is to remove the head from the possible locations to remove the instant death luck factor as the internal and critical damage would be sever anyway.

[Pjwned]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 May 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

There is a difference between overriding at 85% to make that ONE shot that sends you to 102% heat and overriding to continue shooting non-stop at 105% and above. If you fail to grasp that difference that really isn't my problem.

There isn't much of a difference actually when your cockpit instantly explodes due to 1 bad roll even when you barely go over the threshold from 1 shot/volley.

[Carl Vickers]

Its awesome that you put all this effort into doing this. Please buy a mech pack.

Didn't PGI say recently that we all need to shut up cause we dont know how to balance the game, only they do.

Here buy a mech pack.

[TyphonCh]

Pjwned, on 22 May 2016 - 08:55 PM, said:

There isn't much of a difference actually when your cockpit instantly explodes due to 1 bad roll even when you barely go over the threshold from 1 shot/volley.

What's even worse is that it's hardly realistic (Bad choice of a word, but think about it)
Why in the seven levels of hell, would my weapon systems dump their excess heat straight into my cockpit. It's absurd. There has to be some kind of fail safes to stop my cockpit from exploding when I overheat. Depending on the % of overheat, the systems that are destroyed in order of priority should be:

excess heat sinks > heat sinks = 10 > weapon systems = structure HP

Structure should always be taking minor damage even if there is no armor breach. Excess heat sinks melt, until there is 10 (minimum to launch, keep mech's engine running) weapon systems overload next, depending on how much total structure remains.

Edited by Team Chevy86, 22 May 2016 - 09:26 PM.

[Rekkon]

It is disappointing that anyone thinks the people making suggestions here want a system that can be abused. No one concerned for the health of the game has done that. We want a mechanic that is more realistic, less random and allows us more control over the risk. Every potential change mentioned can be tuned to "effective kill" a mech in the same amount of time on average as the current system. In fact gradual component damage would be worse most of the time because your weapons and ability to use them would degrade more continuously while overheating, rather than being 100% intact/effective until you explode entirely.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Its cool to see some good discussion about this.

My idea wasn't intended to be exploited. The idea was to make a system that would allow you to stay near 100% with less risk, but once you go higher (like 105%), the risk is great that your mech could be crippled in effectiveness (especially if you stayed over 100%).

Remember, if you lose a heatsink, it takes longer to dissipate heat. Losing 1 can be felt if you happen to lose one at say 102% heat. But if you get up to say 108%, now you are almost guaranteed to lose a heatsink (80% chance). If you lose one, now you don't dissipate heat as fast. Half second later, you lose another heatsink (all while over 100%), now you lose heat slower yet. Even if you make it under 100% without shutting down and you lost say 3 or 4 heatsinks in the process, you are a lot more gimped the next time you go to fire. Heck, get the mech hot enough and with the loss of heatsinks slowing down your cooling, you might stay over a 100% heat for a long time and lose all your heatsinks.

Its a system more forgiving at very low heat, but can quickly ramp up in danger if you go much higher than a couple percent over 100%.

I'm still not sure I would want the mech to explode outside of an ammo explosion. I would like the mechanic to get away from a suicide button.

Instead, once the heatsinks were gone, maybe the engine could suffer a "critical hit" that would reduce it speed in the same way a legged mech would react (or similar to a Clan XL with a side torso gone).

I'm just trying to think what could be done with current mechanics in place. Distorted vision of the pilot and other similar effects would be cool, but we don't seem to have that type of functionality in game.

Anyway, I just wanted to see a mechanic that burned out and chipped away the heatsinks and components of the mech vs straight up damaging it. I think it could be more interesting and it could allow the function to be used for the purpose it was put in place for.

[MeiSooHaityu]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2016 - 01:47 AM, said:

Nope. Shutdown is there for a reason. You go over 100% - you blow up. Be it 2 seconds sooner or 2 seconds later. Only thing PGI needs to add is a small chance to blow up your ammo and weapons while going above 90% heat, along with all the speed/agility penalties of running with high heat.

All the posts asking for changes regarding override claim that their suggesting will reduce the "exploiting" of the override, while in reality if implemented they'll skyrocket it. Tell me how can people "exploit" override when they know that there is a chance they'll blow up right away? This isn't exploiting at all, this is pure gambling.

Now what this guy suggested will allow people to exploit it beyond belief. I got a SCR with 30 DHS and 12 SPLs, so I'll just run the override at 150% heat for a couple minutes while my DHS's are slowly blowing themselves up coz I got a crapload of them, then a minute or so more while my SPL's are doing the same. Yep ... limited exploiting for sure.

Fkn get real. Don't want to die, don't press "O". You pressed "O" - get ready to blow yourself up instantly.

See, good thinking. Thinking about exploits is good because they can be weeded out.

The rate of heat sink destruction could be multiplied over say 110%. Maybe as an example, you want to go over 115% heat, the game picks 3 heatsinks to destroy instantly and repeats this every half second until you drop below 110% and the normal cycle continues. Go 120% and instantly 6 heatsinks fry on the spot. Then a half second (if you were at 115% now), another 3 heatsinks blow, etc...

I wouldn't actually mind anything over 110% being very severe. Maybe over 110% 6 or more heatsinks are destroyed instantly.

The big exploit I can see more than anything is seeing someone high alpha and then instantly using a cool shot. That is why if you go over a certain %, instant heat sink destruction would need to be pretty devastating. That way no matter how quickly you hit cool shot, a considerable amount of heat sinks are already gone.

P.S. Maybe instead of a fixed amount of heatsinks being eliminated over a certain heat level, the game destroys a % of installed heatsinks instantly instead. That way if you install a lot of heatsinks to try and play the system, you will lose more at once vs a mech running less heatsinks.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 23 May 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[EgoSlayer]

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 May 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

See, good thinking. Thinking about exploits is good because they can be weeded out.

The rate of heat sink destruction could be multiplied over say 110%. Maybe as an example, you want to go over 115% heat, the game picks 3 heatsinks to destroy instantly and repeats this every half second until you drop below 110% and the normal cycle continues. Go 120% and instantly 6 heatsinks fry on the spot. Then a half second (if you were at 115% now), another 3 heatsinks blow, etc...

I wouldn't actually mind anything over 110% being very severe. Maybe over 110% 6 or more heatsinks are destroyed instantly.

The big exploit I can see more than anything is seeing someone high alpha and then instantly using a cool shot. That is why if you go over a certain %, instant heat sink destruction would need to be pretty devastating. That way no matter how quickly you hit cool shot, a considerable amount of heat sinks are already gone.

P.S. Maybe instead of a fixed amount of heatsinks being eliminated over a certain heat level, the game destroys a % of installed heatsinks instantly instead. That way if you install a lot of heatsinks to try and play the system, you will lose more at once vs a mech running less heatsinks.

You're missing the point - heat itself isn't a penalty. If the only effect is that your heat sinks go boom, so what? I ignore heat and drive my heat to 9000. What happens? I lose all my heat sinks? And? So what - I am still fully operational, more so because I don't care about heat or ghost heat so I am firing non-stop alpha strikes of any weapon combo.

Without something else that is risking my destruction or severely curtailing my operational efficiency a heat sink only penalty isn't a penalty at all. And really, I only need the minimum 10 heat sinks because I don't care about heat and am going to be in override the whole match.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 23 May 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

EgoSlayer, on 23 May 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

You're missing the point - heat itself isn't a penalty. If the only effect is that your heat sinks go boom, so what? I ignore heat and drive my heat to 9000. What happens? I lose all my heat sinks? And? So what - I am still fully operational, more so because I don't care about heat or ghost heat so I am firing non-stop alpha strikes of any weapon combo.

Without something else that is risking my destruction or severely curtailing my operational efficiency a heat sink only penalty isn't a penalty at all. And really, I only need the minimum 10 heat sinks because I don't care about heat and am going to be in override the whole match.

There was other penalties if you looked at the original post.

Once heat sinks are gone, you lose weapons and equipment. So, if your heatsinks get stripped, your weapons go quicklt next. Now you can't go to 9000% heat because you have no weapons to get you there. You would also lose other equipment as well like JJs, MASC, ECM, etc...

The engine could also suffer a drop in performance like a clan mech losing a side torso or a mech being legged.

The heatsink destruction is to punish players who are trying to ride the line legitimately. If you try and alpha strike without a care, ideally you would lose all chance yo cool, and quickly there after lose all chance to attack. Then lastly lose all equipment and possibly suffer a huge mobility hit .

Effectively, get crazy with heat and you have no heatsinks and then quickly no weapons and you are limping around. Think of the heatsinks as a buffer before all your weapons take a crap and you are left defenseless and barely able to move.

That is the idea anyway.

[EgoSlayer]

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 May 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

There was other penalties if you looked at the original post.

Once heat sinks are gone, you lose weapons and equipment. So, if your heatsinks get stripped, your weapons go quicklt next. Now you can't go to 9000% heat because you have no weapons to get you there. You would also lose other equipment as well like JJs, MASC, ECM, etc...

The engine could also suffer a drop in performance like a clan mech losing a side torso or a mech being legged.

The heatsink destruction is to punish players who are trying to ride the line legitimately. If you try and alpha strike without a care, ideally you would lose all chance yo cool, and quickly there after lose all chance to attack. Then lastly lose all equipment and possibly suffer a huge mobility hit .

Effectively, get crazy with heat and you have no heatsinks and then quickly no weapons and you are limping around. Think of the heatsinks as a buffer before all your weapons take a crap and you are left defenseless and barely able to move.

That is the idea anyway.

And that is still way too soft of a penalty. If it's end of match or you're near dead already you'll get 10-20 seconds worth of being able to completely ignore heat and not have your effectiveness be impaired. Because the penalty gives you too much time to keep fighting without severe impacts it just basically gives you an effectively limitless heat cap for a blaze of glory. And a much higher chance of surviving one.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 23 May 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

EgoSlayer, on 23 May 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

And that is still way too soft of a penalty. If it's end of match or you're near dead already you'll get 10-20 seconds worth of being able to completely ignore heat and not have your effectiveness be impaired. Because the penalty gives you too much time to keep fighting without severe impacts it just basically gives you an effectively limitless heat cap for a blaze of glory. And a much higher chance of surviving one.

I think you underestimate how quickly the game could be made to eliminate heat sinks, damage an engine, and strip weapons. If there is a multiplier (especially past 110%), why not make it where the mech could be stripped of all heatsinks and be losing weapons by the second alpha? The penalties can be adjusted to be as severe or lax as needed. Really this thread is more about concept instead of raw figures.

The idea is, if you abuse heat, your ability to cool is gone, your ability to move is restricted, and your ability to fire is removed. If you keep close to redline you might lose a heatsink here or there which makes staying under the redline harder and your DPS suffers. If you abuse the mechanic, you are stripped of all weapons and your movement is restricted making you an easy target for your abuse. How fast or how slow that can happen is just about moving values around, it is the idea that is more important.

The only thing that seems a bit tricky too is communicating visually what is happening to the pilot. Structure damage is easier because it flashes the paper doll. You can see damage happen as it is applied. There is no nice visual indicator explaining why you are losing heatsinks or status of the engine. This is where it would be nice if one of the screens in the cockpit showed the heatsinks and some form of engine status logo. That way a player over 100% heat (especially well over) could visually see heat sinks drop off the screen (probably just turn red) as Betty says they are destroyed.