316 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

LBX. What can I say? They're fun weapons that generate very little heat and... That's just about it. For an incredibly long time these weapons have sat in our mechlabs, collecting dust. Fortunately, there might just be a solution available to bring them back into circulation. Even better, the coding for this solution already exists.

Currently, LBX function by sneezing out a cloud of pellets, each that do 1 damage per, in a rough cone that spreads into a fine mist that can be barely felt outside of a point blank encounter. In theory, the increased pellet count should help causing critical hits on exposed internal structure, but as each pellet only does 1 damage any crits they inflict are positively miniscule, even with their slight internal structure damage buff. Further, as the effective range of the spread is so short, it is virtually pointless to actually use the weapons at their listed effective range.

So how could they be changed into something worthwhile? The ability to break internals is a fantastic theme to continue, and that they spread is canon. But if the current spread mechanic is absolutely littered with flaws, where can we go with that?

Clan ERPPC.

The mechanic for Clan ERPPC is that they do the lion's share of their damage to a centrally hit location, while doing a fixed, fractional portion of total damage to the two adjacent sections of the target hit. That is, they do 10 damage to the torso section hit and 2.5 damage to the adjacent segments of the enemy mech.

What is fantastic about this method of spread is that the ERPPC is fully usable along its entire range profile. It spreads just as much at 0 meters as it does at 800. Further, it means any damage inflicted into internal structure of the target mech is affected by the direct chunks of damage: either the 10 or the 2.5 depending on where it was hit.

Proposal:

Change LB mechanic to that of the Clan ERPPC. Apply a damage modifier to internal structure, so that it maintains its bonus against exposed areas of an enemy mech. This way the LB series can be used at their maximum range, as well as their minimum, plus any critical hits inflicted will be more strongly felt by the target.

Through discussion with Bishop Steiner, we've come to these approximate numbers for the *damage:

*All damage numbers are open to change as required for usability and balance

ON ARMOR

LB2X: 1.33 | 0.33 | 0.33
LB5X: 3.00 | 1.00 | 1.00
LB10X: 6.50 | 1.50 | 1.50
LB20X: 14.00 | 3.00 | 3.00

ON INTERNALS (1.75x Modifier)


LB2X: 2.32 | 0.57 | 0.57
LB5X: 5.25 | 1.75 | 1.75
LB10X: 11.37 | 2.62 | 2.62
LB20X: 24.50 | 5.25 | 5.25

Note that while the ON ARMOR damage is lower than the listed rating of the gun at the direct point of impact, the damage inflicted ON INTERNALS is a bit higher than the rating of the gun. If you pay for the armor damage disadvantage you should be rewarded by having an internal structure bonus.

[Bishop Steiner]

My Name is Bishop Steiner. And I approve this Message.

For several reasons:
1) It's better than we have now
2) It reuses an already existing game mechanic, enhancing likelihood of being considered.
3) It's SIMPLE, which again feed into likelihood of consideration/implementation
4) It allow sLB-Xs to actually be used EFFECTIVELY at the enhanced ranges that were part of the initial designs
5) It keeps them distinct and different from IS std ACs, and Clan UACs.
6) We can finally stake, cut the heads off of, and bury the abominations known as Clan ACs.
7) Numbers are easy to tweak and adjust to tune, if something feels a little off
8) It will be fun to watch the "switch ammo ONLY" grognards froth into their neckbeards.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 December 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[AEgg]

I think more in keeping with the current functionality of the weapon would be something like 8/6/6 for the LB20X. They are front loaded damage clan ACs, we don't want them used soley because they're better at front loaded damage to a single component than Ultras are. And lots of central damage with a bit of splash is kind of infringing on the PPCs behavior.

[Bishop Steiner]

AEgg, on 19 December 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

I think more in keeping with the current functionality of the weapon would be something like 8/6/6 for the LB20X. They are front loaded damage clan ACs, we don't want them used soley because they're better at front loaded damage to a single component than Ultras are. And lots of central damage with a bit of splash is kind of infringing on the PPCs behavior.

Can't say I really care if it "infringes" on ERPPC behavior...in fact I am lobbying to get that removed form C-ERPPC, tbh.

Many weapons infringe on the "behaviour" of others. It's a superior way to give it a spread effect, but also maintain its usefulness at range.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 December 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Tordin]

The MG's, the flamer, the LBX. All need some serious improvement. Regarding the LBX, I have always thought that improving dmg per pellet or/and increasing crit chance, crit dmg would do wonders. I am happy that the ammo count got increased though, kudos! Nothing is like 4 x LBX 10 on a mauler, it murders well and IMO better against lights (mostly against the faster ones) than AC 10, because of spread.

Also AC 20 and other ac nedds to get their ghost heat removed totally and/ or keeping heat generated in general to the minimum (without breaking lore if possible).

Edited by Tordin, 19 December 2015 - 11:42 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

AEgg, on 19 December 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

I think more in keeping with the current functionality of the weapon would be something like 8/6/6 for the LB20X. They are front loaded damage clan ACs, we don't want them used soley because they're better at front loaded damage to a single component than Ultras are. And lots of central damage with a bit of splash is kind of infringing on the PPCs behavior.

A worthy concern in the case of Clan AC's. Thing is, the standard clan ACs are placeholder weapons that need to be deleted. Just... removed. The CUACs have the advantage of rate of fire. You can either trade for reduced front loaded damage at a lower rate of fire, or a burst fire mechanic for up to the full amount of damage at a much higher rate of fire. I do not, therefore, fear it obsoleting Clan UAC as it functions sufficiently different.

As for infringing on PPC mechanics, well... Yes. It does. It infringes on Clan ERPPC mechanics, but that doesn't mean it is a bad mechanic. It's a fantastic mechanic. Just not for ERPPC. That ERPPC splash damage doesn't exactly make it more enticing for Clan pilots, after all.

[Ultimax]

This would be a decent direction, let's tweet it to Russ.

[Deathlike]

It doesn't sound good (in the sense that it is balanced), even if you borrow the ERPPC mechanics. It suddenly becomes a PPFLD weapon that is almost superior to the AC10 (even if you drop the lame crit mechanic).

What really needs to happen is something like this... I believe it would be closer to the "cluster mode" that LBX is supposed to have.

When you fire the projectile, it should be one projectile.. and once it reaches a certain range of its target, based on the distance traveled, it would then explode in a cone shaped manner.

distance traveled before exploding - explosion distance to target
100m - 50m
200m - 75m
300m - 100m
400m - 125m

*****Numbers are conceptual and are not final.


So, as the weapon travels a longer distance, the spread increases. That way, "optimal range" has a value instead of being a complete paper number... of which reducing the spread in the current mechanics do not ever solve (heck, max range is a complete joke).

Most of the mechanic though relies on some of the current "old mechanic", but the spread is far more minimized due to distance traveled to the final target in its exploding phase. In this way, you can deliver the concentrated damage better w/o too much on the "spread mechanic".

The only issue that how one would determine which target (given a set within a general vicinity) to "explode on", and I don't have any great ideas on that although it would make things interesting. For instance, if "R" is targeting something and there's a mech in front.. well, he'd could probably be taking non-spread damage (which could just as well be broken, but you can still roll back the crit mechanics).

The other way is allowing the projectile to determine what the closest target it can hit so it can do its thing...

TL;DR I don't think LBX made into a pseudo-CERPPC is a good idea, because it suddenly becomes a form of PPFLD.

Mind you, I'd abuse the hell out of it.

Making the projectile spread once a certain distance threshold is released (and spread using the current mechanics) would achieve a better LBX-life effective while making optimal range relevant.

[FlareHeart Devalis]

I like the base idea of making the LB's better, still dislike "spreading" weapons, but this would be a step for the better, definitely.

[Pariah Devalis]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

It doesn't sound good (in the sense that it is balanced), even if you borrow the ERPPC mechanics. It suddenly becomes a PPFLD weapon that is almost superior to the AC10 (even if you drop the lame crit mechanic).

What really needs to happen is something like this... I believe it would be closer to the "cluster mode" that LBX is supposed to have.

When you fire the projectile, it should be one projectile.. and once it reaches a certain range of its target, based on the distance traveled, it would then explode in a cone shaped manner.

distance traveled before exploding - explosion distance to target
100m - 50m
200m - 75m
300m - 100m
400m - 125m

*****Numbers are conceptual and are not final.


So, as the weapon travels a longer distance, the spread increases. That way, "optimal range" has a value instead of being a complete paper number... of which reducing the spread in the current mechanics do not ever solve (heck, max range is a complete joke).

Most of the mechanic though relies on some of the current "old mechanic", but the spread is far more minimized due to distance traveled to the final target in its exploding phase. In this way, you can deliver the concentrated damage better w/o too much on the "spread mechanic".

The only issue that how one would determine which target (given a set within a general vicinity) to "explode on", and I don't have any great ideas on that although it would make things interesting. For instance, if "R" is targeting something and there's a mech in front.. well, he'd could probably be taking non-spread damage (which could just as well be broken, but you can still roll back the crit mechanics).

The other way is allowing the projectile to determine what the closest target it can hit so it can do its thing...

TL;DR I don't think LBX made into a pseudo-CERPPC is a good idea, because it suddenly becomes a form of PPFLD.

Mind you, I'd abuse the hell out of it.

Making the projectile spread once a certain distance threshold is released (and spread using the current mechanics) would achieve a better LBX-life effective while making optimal range relevant.

That would be why the damage values are adjustable. In concept, your idea and mine simulate the same thing: a proximity detonated flak shell. Yours, however, would require quite a bit more new code to get working, and comes with its own hurdles.

As far as pinpoint damage being a problem, why would it be? Even against C-UACs, if the up front damage to targeted location is only doing 2/3 of the damage a full burst on target would cause, but at half the rate of fire, is that not a decent risk vs reward tradeoff? Yes, you hit one spot harder easier, but you wait a heck of a lot longer to output more lead, driving the damage per second down.

If the actual damage spread is the concern, then that is the easiest of things to adjust. Simply redistribute the damage across central and spread to find a middle ground.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[El Bandito]

I still want LBXs to act like this, with increased damage per pellet.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 December 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

It doesn't sound good (in the sense that it is balanced), even if you borrow the ERPPC mechanics. It suddenly becomes a PPFLD weapon that is almost superior to the AC10 (even if you drop the lame crit mechanic).

I'd still use AC 10 over that LB10.

[Tordin]

The DOOM games
Those were the days.. the mighty BOOMstick.

Just to throw out an idea...

Maybe make the clan AC do that numbers point of dmg instead of splitting the dmg with moe bullets. The clan UACS could be the same but could have less chance of jam (like only - 60% chance to jam or maybe just 10% chance to jam) than IS ones and naturally faster rate of fire non double tapped?. Or would that murder canon even more?

Edited by Tordin, 19 December 2015 - 12:09 PM.

[Nightmare1]

If I remember correctly, didn't LBXs have a similar function in MW4?

[Alistair Winter]

Great idea! Someone get on Twitter or Instagram or Snapchat or whatever.

This is probably the best idea for the LBX I've seen in 3 years, given the lack of options.

[Pariah Devalis]

Nightmare1, on 19 December 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

If I remember correctly, didn't LBXs have a similar function in MW4?

They did. It was my initial inspiration, honestly. Since the C-ERPPC uses the mechanic already, they wouldn't even need to write new code. Just port it over to the LB, change the model it uses for its projectile to a standard AC round, maybe a poof of smoke that looks like a flak shell explosion (entirely optional) on the target, and voila.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

They did. It was my initial inspiration, honestly. Since the C-ERPPC uses the mechanic already, they wouldn't even need to write new code. Just port it over to the LB, change the model it uses for its projectile to a standard AC round, maybe a poof of smoke that looks like a flak shell (entirely optional) on the target, and voila.

I'm in favor; it definitely worked well in MW4!

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

This would be a decent direction, let's tweet it to Russ.

aaaaaaaand......... .done

[adamts01]

It's not a bad idea, and it's better than what we have, but it seems like a band-aid. The weapon would stop being a shotgun, it would lose it's lovely ability to hit lights and would essentially be a worse AC with less pinpoint damage.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

It doesn't sound good (in the sense that it is balanced), even if you borrow the ERPPC mechanics. It suddenly becomes a PPFLD weapon that is almost superior to the AC10 (even if you drop the lame crit mechanic).

What really needs to happen is something like this... I believe it would be closer to the "cluster mode" that LBX is supposed to have.

When you fire the projectile, it should be one projectile.. and once it reaches a certain range of its target, based on the distance traveled, it would then explode in a cone shaped manner.

distance traveled before exploding - explosion distance to target
100m - 50m
200m - 75m
300m - 100m
400m - 125m

*****Numbers are conceptual and are not final.


So, as the weapon travels a longer distance, the spread increases. That way, "optimal range" has a value instead of being a complete paper number... of which reducing the spread in the current mechanics do not ever solve (heck, max range is a complete joke).

Most of the mechanic though relies on some of the current "old mechanic", but the spread is far more minimized due to distance traveled to the final target in its exploding phase. In this way, you can deliver the concentrated damage better w/o too much on the "spread mechanic".

The only issue that how one would determine which target (given a set within a general vicinity) to "explode on", and I don't have any great ideas on that although it would make things interesting. For instance, if "R" is targeting something and there's a mech in front.. well, he'd could probably be taking non-spread damage (which could just as well be broken, but you can still roll back the crit mechanics).

The other way is allowing the projectile to determine what the closest target it can hit so it can do its thing...

TL;DR I don't think LBX made into a pseudo-CERPPC is a good idea, because it suddenly becomes a form of PPFLD.

Mind you, I'd abuse the hell out of it.

Making the projectile spread once a certain distance threshold is released (and spread using the current mechanics) would achieve a better LBX-life effective while making optimal range relevant.

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

It doesn't sound good (in the sense that it is balanced), even if you borrow the ERPPC mechanics. It suddenly becomes a PPFLD weapon that is almost superior to the AC10 (even if you drop the lame crit mechanic).

What really needs to happen is something like this... I believe it would be closer to the "cluster mode" that LBX is supposed to have.

When you fire the projectile, it should be one projectile.. and once it reaches a certain range of its target, based on the distance traveled, it would then explode in a cone shaped manner.

distance traveled before exploding - explosion distance to target
100m - 50m
200m - 75m
300m - 100m
400m - 125m

*****Numbers are conceptual and are not final.


So, as the weapon travels a longer distance, the spread increases. That way, "optimal range" has a value instead of being a complete paper number... of which reducing the spread in the current mechanics do not ever solve (heck, max range is a complete joke).

Most of the mechanic though relies on some of the current "old mechanic", but the spread is far more minimized due to distance traveled to the final target in its exploding phase. In this way, you can deliver the concentrated damage better w/o too much on the "spread mechanic".

The only issue that how one would determine which target (given a set within a general vicinity) to "explode on", and I don't have any great ideas on that although it would make things interesting. For instance, if "R" is targeting something and there's a mech in front.. well, he'd could probably be taking non-spread damage (which could just as well be broken, but you can still roll back the crit mechanics).

The other way is allowing the projectile to determine what the closest target it can hit so it can do its thing...

TL;DR I don't think LBX made into a pseudo-CERPPC is a good idea, because it suddenly becomes a form of PPFLD.

Mind you, I'd abuse the hell out of it.

Making the projectile spread once a certain distance threshold is released (and spread using the current mechanics) would achieve a better LBX-life effective while making optimal range relevant.

http://mwomercs.com/...b-10x-proposal/



But this is simpler, so more probable, and elegant.