285 replies to this topic

[Danjo San]

The issue is big merc units moving as a whole are creating a population based imbalance. Your unit has more players than the top three liao loyalist units combined. Essentially big merc groups are seperate factions. and that sure is a problem. In a perfect MWO World it would not matter if there were thousands of active players per faction dropping constantly but at this stage you have to think in smaller terms.
Just view it from this perspective. Faction A has 400 active Loyalists, the opposed Faction also has 400 active Loyalists. Now a Merc Company with 400 active Players move to Faction A. Faction A now outnumbers Faction B 2:1. The next big Merc Company conicidentaly moves to Faction A, because of new Toys or lanes or whatever, they also have 400 Players. Now Faction A outnumbers Faction B 3:1 ... If there was a Unit size cap, 200 players may have not chosen to move to Faction A because they did not buy the new toys and went to Faction B instead... You get the idea...
Big Merc Units the size of entire loyalist populations just tip the weight too far.
Big Loyalist Units however make it impossible for small Units to flip Planets and therefore discourage them from dropping heavy as it does not matter anyway.
We drop in 2 hours behind Russia and behind TCAF. It is impossible for us to flip a planet as TCAF will have been dropping in the EU Cycle for a couple of hours before we even can show up due to real life. And it is just not possible for us to be dropping the entire NA Cycle to manage to make an Impact strong enough to flip a planet with our tag on it. That cycle will go to 4TCR at best.
Now if large loyalist groups were split into subdivisions as well. not every subdivison would be fielding 12mans all the time, as they most likely would be made up of several subdivisons forged together... so the "points" needed to flip the planet could possibly go to a different house loyalist or even small merc unit. It would give more incentive to smaller companies to at least try. If you play CW with the knowledge that within your faction you have no chance whatsoever of flipping a planet, you have two choices, either you give a flying f and play because you enjoy CW more than QP, or you join a large unit. Where your impact wont matter anyway as they were big anyway before ...
We personally don't care if we get a tag or not, and we sure don't want to join TCAF. We like them, we drop with them, every now and then TCAF Players ask me to drop lead. We are a happy family down here in Liao and we are proud to have such great Players down here. Anyhow, TCAF internally is already organized in subdivisions it would essentially only mean a distribution of new Tags for them as far as I can judge that from my standpoint.

How do you decide who will go?
Nobody has to go, you just restructure. You and Armando keep confusing friends with Unit. Just because someone is not in your subdivison it does not mean you cant drop with them. Your Tag is MS-R as far as i can tell, and yet I bet you have been dropping with -MS-, huh? impossible no... It just means your effort creating a group may take a minute on your Units TS Server ... but wait, I guess you are doing that as well already...

But back to my Unit ... No, not all in my Unit are highly skilled Tier 1 Players, and No not all of us are real life friends. I know 2 of them personally but thats that. We play Skittles, We play HHOD, We play 31HR, we have played countless Merc Companies full 12man. We have lost a deal but we have also carried Pugs to victory against better performing Units fielding a full 12 man.

PGI ... yeah, Phase 1 conclusion: Problem are big merc Units faction hopping and ghostdropping. Result- Ghostdropping has been made harder -> Phase 2
Phase 2 conclusion: Numerous large Units creating bad experience for Solo and casual Players, Faction hopping still an Issue. Result - Tries to make large groups harder to grow - Splits Queue in Solo/Pug and UNIT, Merc Contracts reworked, Loyalists breaking contract penalties ->Phase 3
Phase 3 early conclusion: Big Units stay big, Split Queue was dumb. rest to come... I can tell you I do see a pattern here.
And it starts with large numbers faction hopping....

[Monodominant]

So wait... because people dont want to be Liao (your example of 1200:400) Mercstar has to suffer?

Because you and your friends dont have enough play time (your example of starting to drop later), another unit has to be split apart to make things 'fair'?

What happens when tomorrow a 12 man dedicated unit that doesnt have wives, doesnt have jobs and can play as much as they want comes along and says '48 man units ruining the game... make everyone into a 12 man... you dont need a 48 man unit, you can just drop with them even if they are in 12 man chunks'?

You have, again, valid points. You feel unhappy that due to big units being around you cant flip planets and feel that even if you did win, you didnt get anything done.

Thats valid. That builds on how rewards shouldnt be about who tagged a planet but about who contributed and to what %. You can then of course say 'ah they are more so they will contribute more % due to dropping more'. This might still be true (at which point though I would say that the same can be said about people who can game 12 hours a day vs my 2 hours a day... they play more, will contribute more and will gain more... should I be upset about that too?) but then comes skill and winning... because multiple losses dilutes your winning pool and hence your rewards...

In general FW should reward dedication and effectiveness. It doesnt matter if you are 400 or 40... if you gain 10 victories you should be rewarded.

An alternative solution if such a big change wouldnt be accepted would be to switch the model...

Mercenaries can no longer claim planets (after all, you dont get Merc to keep the country you invaded... you get them to smash the enemy army, pay them and keep the planet). They get another benefit instead while loyalists get the planets and their tags. I am sure smart people out there can create a trade off. That way there is a reason to be a loyalist and not just an in house merc and a way to make Mercs joining your faction matter... For example you DO want MS on your side (also so that they are not against you) but it costs to get them to come to you... it costs a lot since they wont get any MC for flipping planets to your side.

In general, I repeat that from your posts you seem to give me the 'symptoms' as being MS and big units but they are not the causes of the illness. When you have a headache, sure you can get a painkiller for temporary relief (split the units) but if you have a brain tumor it wont be solved by paracetamol... (sorry for the dark turn!).

In general, I am sure SOOOO much can be done without touching unit caps that would be easier if people looked at the big picture and if PGI bothered to think outside the box, implement community ideas (and not the loud mouths but those with 10000s of hours played and 10000s of dollars spent on the game and that play CW all the time). Putting a PGI employee as a FW monitor that works to proactively stop such issues (rewards for underpopulated under attack factions is one example, allowing multiple queues is another) would also help.

Edited by Monodominant, 23 May 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[Danjo San]

Monodominant, on 23 May 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

So wait... because people dont want to be Liao (your example of 1200:400) Mercstar has to suffer?

Because you and your friends dont have enough play time (your example of starting to drop later), another unit has to be split apart to make things 'fair'?

What happens when tomorrow a 12 man dedicated unit that doesnt have wives, doesnt have jobs and can play as much as they want comes along and says '48 man units ruining the game... make everyone into a 12 man... you dont need a 48 man unit, you can just drop with them even if they are in 12 man chunks'?

Lol, Mercstar has to suffer...

And no because me and my friends have the time we spend a unit does not have to "suffer". My Point is creating a more equal setting where everyone, casual + competitive + random have a chance to succeed and gain rewards that are set by the high council of PGI. But thats probably my Liao Space communist ideology breaking through here, huh?

What happens with 12 man groups that are viable ... nothing... they are fine. I am not complaining about Kcom, Evil, BO, or whatever reasonable sized unit out there is wiping the floor with whoever opposes them. Just when it comes to sheer numbers is when I begin to see problems.

And as mentioned before.

It has been a problem in Phase 1
It has been a problem in Phase 2
It still is a problem in Phase 3

The temporary relief comes with events (tukkayid or prove your allegiance) where cues are flooded so heavily that groupsizes dont fall into weight. To cure the symptoms, one has to remove the cause.
Sorry but the cause has been the same since day one, large faction hopping groups.

[Danjo San]

My example has nothing to do with any faction i was just hypothesizing... So no because Liao is a unpopular Faction is not the reason why Mercstar has to suffer

[Danjo San]

Monodominant, on 23 May 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Mercenaries can no longer claim planets (after all, you dont get Merc to keep the country you invaded... you get them to smash the enemy army, pay them and keep the planet). They get another benefit instead while loyalists get the planets and their tags. I am sure smart people out there can create a trade off. That way there is a reason to be a loyalist and not just an in house merc and a way to make Mercs joining your faction matter... For example you DO want MS on your side (also so that they are not against you) but it costs to get them to come to you... it costs a lot since they wont get any MC for flipping planets to your side.

really enjoyed this part ... I dunno bout where you get your facts but this one cracked me up hard. Seriously I almost chocked. Spewed all the coffee out over my monitor. Thanks for that moment of joy!

[Danjo San]

[Monodominant]

No, I said that would be a proposal. Give Tags on planets only to Loyalists and not Mercs and find something else attractive to give to Mercs.

[MechPorn]

They just don't get it, head in ground sqwauking continues.

[Contrex]

They dont want to see it. The differents between MS and 90% of all other Units is the sice AND thei activity. They have some decent players, but they are for sure not a top tier unit. So if you want to get a max unit cap for greater good you hurt the MS guys and they take it personal.

I am in a big unit as well and if you ask me if i know 30% of my unit i have to admit i dont. But my unit is not even half the sice MS is. The point is: you have to see the problem from a third person view not through your "their might be a problem but the solution would hurt my Unit " glases.

Once more: its simple math. Just try it without any emotions and you will get a solution...

[KinLuu]

There is a simple short term solution which would make beeing a loyalist far more interesting.

Priority or VIP queues.

[Stahlherz]

Monodominant, on 23 May 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

For example you DO want MS on your side (also so that they are not against you) but it costs to get them to come to you... it costs a lot since they wont get any MC for flipping planets to your side.

The better Merc outfits already have plenty of money. C-Bills are easy come by. Currently cutbacks on contracts due to high populations aren't considered real downsides.

How about this:

You want a top notch Merc unit fight for you? You'll have to pay them a sum of MC from a special faction coffer where every loyalist unit has to put some eggs in.

You can either pay the price or watch them getting employed by your neighbor.

But wait...you wanna say "In that scenario loyalists would basically work just to pay for having the best mercs!"

Correcto.

[JaxRiot]

I dont think its any Unit or players fault CW is the way it is. The game mode is simply garbage.

Too many fronts and not enough players makes for a very bad environment to have large Units in. Especially ones that can Faction hop practically at will and create sudden population shifts in an already population starved game mode.

Edit- Its not their fault. They are just using the game mechanics that are in place that give them the advantage and game experience that they want. Who can blame them?

The only thing that these large Merc Units might be guilty of is opposing any idea that would limit their size. Which I find odd since they claim that even though they have hundreds of members, they can only field 2, maybe 3 drops on any given day. Thats roughly 36 active core members. So why would a limit of say 50 hurt them if they really only have maybe 50 that are active?

So what do we do now?

Limiting Unit sizes wont help because of the way the Mode is set up, all they have to do is create multiple Merc sub units, get on their TS and continue doing what they are doing. Nothing will change.

Cant depend on PGI to do anything since they already said that there will be no real changes to CW any more. Just minor tweaks here and there. And even if they did, it could be years away

A Player driven solution obviously wont work because it is divided. Everyone is looking out for their own interests

Its just time to accept that PGI failed. CW is a failure.

I guess the only thing to do now is just walk away

Edited by JaxRiot, 23 May 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Danjo San]

Stahlherz, on 23 May 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

The better Merc outfits already have plenty of money. C-Bills are easy come by. Currently cutbacks on contracts due to high populations aren't considered real downsides.

How about this:

You want a top notch Merc unit fight for you? You'll have to pay them a sum of MC from a special faction coffer where every loyalist unit has to put some eggs in.

You can either pay the price or watch them getting employed by your neighbor.

But wait...you wanna say "In that scenario loyalists would basically work just to pay for having the best mercs!"

Correcto.

haha, so you want loyalists to spend real money to get mc and then put that mc into a coffer to buy mercs that play for your faction... not seeing that happen.
1. Players would most likely all just turn Mercs with the possibility of getting paid in MC by Loyalists.
2. If Loyalists were actually up to put there cash into a pool for a system that gives them nothing in return, aside from a tag on a map and a stupid amount of mc as a reward, and only if you are large enough to get enough points on the planet, Then it would favour the higher population Faction. Faction A (200 players each pay 5MC per Week) or Faction B (1000 Players pay 1MC per week) which is more attractive? Answer: The Mercs that pay nothing but get everything.

[Stahlherz]

Danjo San, on 23 May 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

haha, so you want loyalists to spend real money to get mc and then put that mc into a coffer to buy mercs that play for your faction... not seeing that happen.

No, I was joking, but that wasn't obvious to you.

[Danjo San]

JaxRiot, on 23 May 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

I dont think its any Unit or players fault CW is the way it is. The game mode is simply garbage.

Too many fronts and not enough players makes for a very bad environment to have large Units in. Especially ones that can Faction hop practically at will and create sudden population shifts in an already population starved game mode.

The only thing that these large Merc Units might be guilty of is opposing any idea that would limit their size. Which I find odd since they claim that even though they have hundreds of members, they can only field 2, maybe 3 drops on any given day. Thats roughly 36 active core members. So why would a limit of say 50 hurt them if they really only have maybe 50 that are active?

So what do we do now?

Limiting Unit sizes wont help because of the way the Mode is set up, all they have to do is create multiple Merc sub units, get on their TS and continue doing what they are doing. Nothing will change.

Cant depend on PGI to do anything since they already said that there will be no real changes to CW any more. Just minor tweaks here and there.

Its just time to accept that PGI failed. CW is a failure.

I guess the only thing to do now is just walk away

the funny thing is, they already have multiple subdivisions, they just dont see the point of having seperate tags for them as it would mean they cant hop as easy anymore. each subdivision leader would have to choose the same contract, if one or two are a day late, it will accumulate over time.
also here's one more benefit. There are players in Units that dislike CW, for whatever reasons. I bet they could fill couple subdivisions with a playerbase the size of MS or similar.
They are still part of the same community but not part of the CW-Strike Teams ... so whats the fuss.

MWO is a Low Population Game with 10 possible factions. we can discuss and cry as much as we want, the number of factions won't be reduced. Large moving clusters create clogs. Given the fact that loyalists got no extra incentive rather than voting on which faction to attack, Mercs got an entire set of rewards on top of the existing rewards they had collected previously. So the current state caters somewhat towards Mercs. Plus breaking loyalty adds penalties.
PGI encourages becoming Merc, then later go to Loyalists. But for now Merc it is. Then you add the factor of new Toys into the equasion. and suddenly the choices where to take the next contract become more limited. out of formerly 10 the choice is now 1 out of 6 (IS) or 1 out of 4 (Clan). Next factor in the borders and overall activity of the loyalists and choices go down another notch. So what happens then, the movable clusters clog one or two Factions, leaving the others dry.
And the system cant cure itself. Jade Falcon has made good progress, Ghostbear or Wolf not so much. So next choice is biased because large clusters have helped create solid lead on one faction, they are more likely to accept another term there.
If PGI does not see how the clusters are creating bloodclots in the veins of CW the only possible solution can be to uncluster on a community basis.
If you want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, abandon your clusters and create independent cells.

Stahlherz, on 23 May 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

No, I was joking, but that wasn't obvious to you.

lost my ability to distinguish sarcasm couple pages back

[Tom Sawyer]

JaxRiot, on 23 May 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

I dont think its any Unit or players fault CW is the way it is. The game mode is simply garbage.

Too many fronts and not enough players makes for a very bad environment to have large Units in. Especially ones that can Faction hop practically at will and create sudden population shifts in an already population starved game mode.

Edit- Its not their fault. They are just using the game mechanics that are in place that give them the advantage and game experience that they want. Who can blame them?

The only thing that these large Merc Units might be guilty of is opposing any idea that would limit their size. Which I find odd since they claim that even though they have hundreds of members, they can only field 2, maybe 3 drops on any given day. Thats roughly 36 active core members. So why would a limit of say 50 hurt them if they really only have maybe 50 that are active?

So what do we do now?

Limiting Unit sizes wont help because of the way the Mode is set up, all they have to do is create multiple Merc sub units, get on their TS and continue doing what they are doing. Nothing will change.

Cant depend on PGI to do anything since they already said that there will be no real changes to CW any more. Just minor tweaks here and there. And even if they did, it could be years away

A Player driven solution obviously wont work because it is divided. Everyone is looking out for their own interests

Its just time to accept that PGI failed. CW is a failure.

I guess the only thing to do now is just walk away

Or better yet close your wallet. PGI will continue to dangle the next shiny mechpack. As long as the green continues to flow they will continue to offer them. Occasionally you will get the "We have GREAT plans for this map, this mode, this system". Then you get something like Phase 3.

I play for fun. I enjoy being able to join a TS server, find like minded gamers, and then go game hunting. Sometimes its a quick game, sometimes CW.

If your idea of fun is endless waiting in que so be it. If you believe MS and many of other large units have a secret cabal of evil that we use to sync drop or faction hop so be it.

And if there comes a time where I can not login to TS to find like minded gamers wanting to play MWO I am sure we will find other games. Star Citizen sooner or later will go live. We shall find a carrier and go be REAL space pirates.

Even then I am sure MS will get blamed for the demise of MWO.

Meh

[Randy Poffo]

People seem to forget that there is room between "Everything is MercStar's fault" and "MercStar is totally blameless".

MercStar is a unit that happens, by its nature, to raise issues that point to a great big glaring failure mode in the FW system. It's not their fault that the system is that way.

On the other hand they're going to have to eventually decide whether or not it's worth it to them to carry on under these circumstances; the nature of the population and number of factions make units like this really difficult to work around, and you can expect there to be problems on an ongoing basis even if they try to fix the existing ones. And once that decision is made, take responsibility for it rather than pretending the results have nothing to do with you. If you could avoid some of these problems by reorganizing, you're not obligated to reorganize on that account, but make it a well-reasoned and open decision.

[MischiefSC]

MS is the current biggest beneficiary of how broken FW, so they get blamed for it. The excuse is 'they're too large' or 'they play to many drops' or whatever is obvious to point at like it's a flaw. Neither is, directly, a flaw. Unit caps are irrelevant and no solution - the biggest units are not a problem to anyone. Saying 'your unit is only allowed so many drops per day' would be just as stupid of an idea.

The problem is that PGI did a bad job setting FW up and, in typical fashion, is going to just leave it broken and when possible blame the players.

The only thing you can accurately blame MS for is playing the game the way PGI (badly) made it and not the way players wanted it to work (based on the promises PGI made originally).

Speaking of which: From 2012

Here's a nice quote from Paul, 10/13/2012:

Quote

Community Warfare:
Let’s start off by re-quoting the original Community Warfare Pillar from our game description:

Community Warfare:
MechWarrior® in all of its incarnations has always had a loyal following of players in one of the strongest on-line communities in gaming history. Piranha-Games hopes to bring this community together in a friendly conflict of universal control. This may sound a little odd, but it is the fun competitiveness that will keep the game alive and kicking for years to come. Utilizing the BattleTech® Inner Sphere, we plan to have skirmishes amongst the Great Houses in BattleTech® lore. Allowing the player to have an active part in this conflict is one of our key directives in designing this game. Players will be able to create, manage and customize their Merc Corp's player base and appearance, while banding together to really delve into the Inner Sphere conflict where House alignment reigns supreme. Merc Corp leaders will bid and fight for occupation rights to some of the most valuable planets across the Inner Sphere and challenge other Merc Corps for control of planets reaping large rewards.

Nothing has changed from this original vision of where we want to take Community Warfare. The thing about Community Warfare the decision to push it out further post Open Beta, is the sheer size of the feature and the amount of time to implement. Right now we want the dev team to focus on getting the current game feature set into the live build and then stabilize the build as people join us through the first few weeks of Open Beta. Soon after, a large segment of the entire team will shift over to getting Community Warfare coded and implemented so we can get this into the hands of internal/early beta tester’s hands so we can launch the feature in the future. Because of the sheer workload of this feature we cannot give you an accurate timeline for delivery for this but we will start rolling out information as we begin development of Community Warfare.

After this big gameplay injection, we will look at the plan for the Clan Invasion.

- The MechWarrior™ Online® Team

Huh.

Here was a video on what it was going to be like from 2013.



Someone wake me up when we get there.

Edited by MischiefSC, 23 May 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Adamski]

The Nerf Bat, on 22 May 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

Quit getting your MS panties in a bunch.
4 of the top 8 merc units are Jade Falcon including Kcom Evil 228.
Loyalist have no say over who to "hire"
That seems good for the game. Nice and balanced.

This is a GREAT example of why PGI's Recruitment Fee's were a dumb idea, and rewarding Planet Ownership was a great way to further break the system.

If they used Faction Leaderboards instead of planet ownership, it would mean that having more than 1 top tier team on a faction, would require every other team that doesn't place 1st on the Faction Leaderboard to take a paycut in rewards.

Armando, on 22 May 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

I would like to see a Three Tier contract system...

Tier 1: Faction Level Contracts -

These would be PGI controlled contract bonuses for mercenaries based on Faction Population numbers (the lower the Faction Population...the higher the rewards). Basically what we have now.

Tier 2: Unit Level Contracts -

These would be Unit Leader(s) / Commander(s) controlled contract bonuses for mercenaries based on what the Faction Unit wants from the Mercenary Unit. Can include taking planets for a Faction, defending planets for a Faction, Merc Unit training of Faction Unit members, Merc Unit training of Faction Unit commanders, etc.

Tier 3: Pilot Level Contracts -

These would be Faction/Freelancer Pilot controlled contract bonuses for mercenaries based on what the Faction/Freelancer Pilot wants from the Mercenary Unit. Can include all the same features as Unit Level Contract, but on a 'personal' level (specifically for 'training').

I would love to see a better way for Mercenaries to work with Loyalist, give the Loyalist a method to hire Mercenaries to do their bidding, and I think you will see a HUGE decline in the Loyalist vs Merc mess we have now.

---------------------------------------------------

Right now it might SEEM like the Mercs are the 'big bad guys' because it SEEMS like the Mercs are always against you. Don't get it twisted Loyalists....Merc units WANT to work for YOU, it's just PGI makes it so damn hard. (even worse with Phase 3 then before) for you guys to hire us.

I promise that if PGI can provide an outlet that rewards Mercs for working FOR Factions things will look a whole lot different.

As a Loyalist, IDGAF about what Mercs do, and who they sign up for. Let them go where they are going to have fun.

What I care about, is PGI rewarding the largest units that drop the most, instead of the most skilled units. Because that is what creates the problem of active players all banding together into as few units as possible to increase their rewards.

I'm sure you get your rocks off at the idea of your Merc company getting hired and your epeen prestige determining how much you can demand, but PGI has much more glaring flaws they need to fix before they stroke your epeen some more.

[Helsbane]

Adamski, on 23 May 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

This is a GREAT example of why PGI's Recruitment Fee's were a dumb idea, and rewarding Planet Ownership was a great way to further break the system.

If they used Faction Leaderboards instead of planet ownership, it would mean that having more than 1 top tier team on a faction, would require every other team that doesn't place 1st on the Faction Leaderboard to take a paycut in rewards.



As a Loyalist, IDGAF about what Mercs do, and who they sign up for. Let them go where they are going to have fun.

What I care about, is PGI rewarding the largest units that drop the most, instead of the most skilled units. Because that is what creates the problem of active players all banding together into as few units as possible to increase their rewards.

I'm sure you get your rocks off at the idea of your Merc company getting hired and your epeen prestige determining how much you can demand, but PGI has much more glaring flaws they need to fix before they stroke your epeen some more.

PGI can keep their hands off my epeen, tyvm. They have a track record of ruining pretty much everything they touch, so....