27 replies to this topic

[dario03]

So some of you can probably guess where I'm going with this and some of you are probably screaming "no, no, noooo more power creep" or "I don't wanna spend 24,000,000 cbills on weapon modules for my jack of all trade Atlas". But hear me out.

Currently most mastered mechs can carry 2 or 3 (a few can carry 4) weapon modules. And since there are only 2 weapon modules for most weapons this is plenty IF you are boating one weapon type. But if you have multiple weapon types you are giving up some effectiveness from the modules. And since there is no downsides to modules this promotes boating.

Now personally I would rather we just had a total rework of the skills/modules/quirks system that made them all a combined pick and choose kind of system, but that would be a lot of work. So what if for now we just allow a unlimited amount of weapon module slots? That way it won't matter if you have 1 weapon or 4, you can have modules for all of them.

Or maybe you get a weapon module slot per weapon type and you have to choose range or cooldown. (add a LPL and you get one weapon module slot for LPL modules, but adding another LPL would not give another module). That could help balance out the power creep and keep the cost of buying more modules down. But I also think we should get some new modules, like spread, damage, heat, duration, velocity, maybe slight special attributes, etc, etc. And again limit how many per weapon type instead of per mech. Oh and lower the cost of modules since players would probably buy more.
I think that would promote having more varied builds and instead of just flat out upgrades you would be customizing the weapons on your mech. Kind of like how some ask that we have weapons from different manufacturers that have slightly different attributes. But instead of a bunch of different medium lasers we would have modules that make the medium lasers different.

So I guess the shorter version would be
Should we limit weapon modules per weapon type instead of per mech?

Edited by dario03, 25 May 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[Lorian Sunrider]

No. Because it further cripples hard point starved mechs and once again makes it more difficult for new players to face experienced players when they are already on an uneven playing level.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lorian Sunrider, on 25 May 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

No. Because it further cripples hard point starved mechs and once again makes it more difficult for new players to face experienced players when they are already on an uneven playing level.

It puts less emphasis on singular weapon boats because they are no longer that much stronger than some mixed build.



As for the OP, I'd rather weapon modules just get scraped all together, which is probably as likely as unlimited weapon modules.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 May 2016 - 04:48 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The suggestion presented in the OP (allowing many weapon mods) would make single weapon boat less effective, because right now they can boost all their weapons whereas a mixed weapon Mech cannot.

I like the idea.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 25 May 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[Jetfire]

Weapon module slots are a functional balance mechanic. I do not think removing them is a sound idea. Rebalancing how many each mech has... yeah probably, but removal in favor of unlimited? No, that does not sound right. Boats suffer their own issues of inflexibility.

Many mechs should probably only have 1 weapon module slot, especially the best single system boats.

Edited by Jetfire, 25 May 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Jetfire, on 25 May 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Weapon module slots are a functional balance mechanic. I do not think removing them is a sound idea. Rebalancing how many each mech has... yeah probably, but removal in favor of unlimited? No, that does not sound right. Boats suffer their own issues of inflexibility.

Many mechs should probably only have 1 weapon module slot, especially the best single system boats.

I do not think single weapon boats need the special treatment of boosting all their weapons while mixed loadouts cannot have this luxury. A single weapon boat already has the great luxuries of a single firing solution and simplified ammo logostics, they do not need their [current] special treatment of their modules being all-encompassing.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 25 May 2016 - 02:55 PM.

[dario03]

Lorian Sunrider, on 25 May 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

No. Because it further cripples hard point starved mechs and once again makes it more difficult for new players to face experienced players when they are already on an uneven playing level.

It wouldn't do any of that... No mech in the game only has one hardpoint so it wouldn't hurt them. Now if we went with the only one module per weapon then it would make single weapon boats a bit weaker but it would limit all mechs. And limiting modules per weapon both closes and opens the gap between new and experienced players. And cheaper modules only closes the gap.

And it isn't a set in stone only do it this way suggestion, if people don't want their boats hurt then maybe let one weapon have 2 modules (like if you use the module slot or something). Or maybe keep the varied number of weapon module slots per mech (and those can have multiple modules per weapon) but more slots get added per weapon type added (limited). Would work better if we had more modules.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 May 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

It also makes singular weapon boats that much stronger.

No, thats about the exact opposite of what it is aiming for.

Edited by dario03, 25 May 2016 - 03:33 PM.

[1453 R]

The original idea (unlimited weapon modules) is...not good.

The final idea (1 weapon module slot per equipped weapon type) might actually work better. As stated, the current system heavily favors bloatboats able to equip one or two modules that globally affect their entire armament. A system where each weapon type on a 'Mech gets one module slot might be intriguing, if also a lot of work and vanishingly unlikely to happen.

I would, however, prefer for weapon modules to go back to "Upside, and also downside", rather than being flat upgrades the way they are now. That would also curb bloatboating to some extent, as weapon modules would once again be a choice and not a requirement.

[cazidin]

No. Some might even argue that we shouldn't have modules in MWO.

[dario03]

cazidin, on 25 May 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

No. Some might even argue that we shouldn't have modules in MWO.

That is a completely different topic though. Like I said I would prefer a total rework of the skill/module/quirk system but until then, this is a simple to do improvement. Or at least I think it is.

[Clydewinder]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 May 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

It also makes singular weapon boats that much stronger.

If anything, the current module system encourages single-weapon boats... if you only have two slots you can add the cooldown and range modules for only one wpn type

[Troutmonkey]

1453 R, on 25 May 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

The original idea (unlimited weapon modules) is...not good.

The final idea (1 weapon module slot per equipped weapon type) might actually work better. As stated, the current system heavily favors bloatboats able to equip one or two modules that globally affect their entire armament. A system where each weapon type on a 'Mech gets one module slot might be intriguing, if also a lot of work and vanishingly unlikely to happen.

I would, however, prefer for weapon modules to go back to "Upside, and also downside", rather than being flat upgrades the way they are now. That would also curb bloatboating to some extent, as weapon modules would once again be a choice and not a requirement.

The 1 weapon module per weapon type idea has merit, but I'm not sure if it's enough to justify a rework of the system. As for the modules having downsides... I could be for that if 1. Modules were much cheaper 2. There were more options than range and cool down.
Blacklight: Retribution has this neat little weapon mode system where each type of mag / stock / brack / scope / charm has small bonuses and negatives. Improved ADS speed for reduced running speed? Better running speed but slower reload speed? Slower ADS but improved hip fire accuracy? Lots of small but meaningful choices to make

Edited by Troutmonkey, 25 May 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[dario03]

Troutmonkey, on 25 May 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

The 1 weapon module per weapon type idea has merit, but I'm not sure if it's enough to justify a rework of the system. As for the modules having downsides... I could be for that if 1. Modules were much cheaper 2. There were more options than range and cool down.
Blacklight: Retribution has this neat little weapon mode system where each type of mag / stock / brack / scope / charm has small bonuses and negatives. Improved ADS speed for reduced running speed? Better running speed but slower reload speed? Lots of little choices to make

I've also always been a fan of downsides to modules. I always thought the different levels of modules 1-5 should give you the option of using any of the 1-5 with 1 being slight benefit with slight cons (or no con for lvl1) and 5 being bigger benefits with bigger cons.
I also thought about having no cons but each mech would have a certain amount of module points and each module level would take up those points. And the higher level modules would probably have diminishing returns. But that was more for the total rework of the skills/modules/quirks combined system.

Edited by dario03, 25 May 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[1453 R]

Troutmonkey, on 25 May 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

The 1 weapon module per weapon type idea has merit, but I'm not sure if it's enough to justify a rework of the system. As for the modules having downsides... I could be for that if 1. Modules were much cheaper 2. There were more options than range and cool down.
Blacklight: Retribution has this neat little weapon mode system where each type of mag / stock / brack / scope / charm has small bonuses and negatives. Improved ADS speed for reduced running speed? Better running speed but slower reload speed? Lots of little choices to make

That'd be optimal, yeah. In a perfect world we'd have one module slot for each equipped weapon or 2/3 module slots per 'Mech with a "one module for any given weapon type" limit, and four or five modules for each weapon type which each have a Plus and a Minus. +Range w/+Heat (or +Burntime for lasers, as a sort of mini-ER laser mod), -Cooldown w/+Heat or +Jam chance for munitions weapons. Weapon-specific things like +ProjSpeed for PPCs in exchange for more heat or perhaps a bit less damage (more energy devoted to motive force than raw oomphf). Things like that. It'd be baller.

Never gonna happen, though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

dario03, on 25 May 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

No, thats about the exact opposite of what it is aiming for.

Sorry, brain got cross-wired there and meant to type something different, was trying to oppose Lorian's post, it is now fixed.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 May 2016 - 04:49 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I think weapon and Mech modules should replace quirks. You want to increase twist speed? Use a module. You want to increase range? Use a module. You want increased structure in one part of a Mech chassis? Use a module. No Mech may equip multiple modules that effect the same weapon system. You get my drift. Make the Pilot (and his Tech) make the choices on how to improve the performance of his Mech. Do away with all quirks but give under performing Mechs a couple extra module slots.

[Troutmonkey]

1453 R, on 25 May 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

Never gonna happen, though.

Thing is barely anyone is willing to add heat in exchange for anything. Pretty much why the previous system failed, the negative were too great. Now if they could do mods that dropped heat in exchange for less range or longer cooldowns, that might be viable.

[Navid A1]

dario03, on 25 May 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

I've also always been a fan of downsides to modules. I always thought the different levels of modules 1-5 should give you the option of using any of the 1-5 with 1 being slight benefit with slight cons (or no con for lvl1) and 5 being bigger benefits with bigger cons.
I also thought about having no cons but each mech would have a certain amount of module points and each module level would take up those points. And the higher level modules would probably have diminishing returns. But that was more for the total rework of the skills/modules/quirks combined system.

Upon release, modules had heat/cooldown penalties.
It did not work back then, and it will not work now.
No one will ever use modules that way.

The reason is that the punishment is constant, while the benefit is limited to some edge cases.
As an example, I will NEVER accept 1 more heat for my lasers all the time, while that puny 40m range increase may or may not be useful in a match.

[Troutmonkey]

Rampage, on 25 May 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

I think weapon and Mech modules should replace quirks. You want to increase twist speed? Use a module. You want to increase range? Use a module. You want increased structure in one part of a Mech chassis? Use a module. No Mech may equip multiple modules that effect the same weapon system. You get my drift. Make the Pilot (and his Tech) make the choices on how to improve the performance of his Mech. Do away with all quirks but give under performing Mechs a couple extra module slots.

Yeah why limit it to weapons
+5% inner structure -5% speed
+5% speed -8% twist rate
lots of numbers that could be quirked through mods to make *gasp* role oriented builds!

[dario03]

Navid A1, on 25 May 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Upon release, modules had heat/cooldown penalties.
It did not work back then, and it will not work now.
No one will ever use modules that way.

The reason is that the punishment is constant, while the benefit is limited to some edge cases.
As an example, I will NEVER accept 1 more heat for my lasers all the time, while that puny 40m range increase may or may not be useful in a match.

I was playing when they had the negatives. It didn't work due to implementation but it could work especially if we had more module types. Players might not accept more heat for range but they might for duration or damage.