8 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

There seems to be some contradictory stance on how it actually works.

So what we know so far, is that:

Heat dissipation/sec = n * heat sink rating + (10+n2) * engine heat sink rating

with heat sink rating = 0.12 for std heat sink, 0.14 for dhs, and 0.15 for clan dhs (stats from smurfy)

and engine heat sink rating = 0.11 for std heat sink, 0.2 for both IS and clan dhs

n = amount of external heat sink
n2 = amount of additional internal heat sink

This I get... now... from Breakdown... I get that movement will negate heatsinks, and to me, this is where things get muddled.

So assuming you accumulate heat just from movement. But you don't accumulate heat indefinitely. There seems to be a cap, meaning about 6% on some maps. Now, Breakdown makes it seem like carrying 1 or 2 heatsink will negate that effect, but clearly, that's not the case. But this movement heat from engine also doesn't make a lot of sense because you will either accumulate heat indefinitely (going to 100%) if you have insufficient heat sinks, OR the heat sinks will cool off your engine enough, that it will never reach above 0. There can't be a homeostasis where the heat just stay at 6%.

Unless... of course... that engine somehow works like a car engine, where your heat can not be physically 0. But then, if that's the case, then it doesn't matter if you are standing still or moving, your heat should have some value that's constant above 0, right? Standing still should never be 0% heat. Also, the same case should be argued that if your heat sink is good enough, then aside from that constant heat, moving at 66% to 100% should not raise that heat, no? (or it should accumulate to 100%, which clearly is not the case here)

All of this is not even discussing the more complicated environmental effect, which is it a percent penalty/bonus to your rate? Or a flat value that always exist as some charts have suggested? Cause the latter case doesn't make sense. You can't go to 100% just standing still in terra therma, and if your heat sink is good enough to remove those heat as well... then movement in terra therma vs polar highland should technically be the same... you shouldnt have higher movement heat just by being in terra therma.

so what gives? Obviously, this is not real life, and some values might just be additiive. In which case, I was wondering if anyone actually have the formula figured out. I know someone did a heat simulator, but the formula he/she used is never released (be great if you can tell us), so there's no way to verify 100% accuracy.

I got a friend that's working on this ambitious project where he's testing pretty all known variables, but I was wondering if I can save him sometime by asking if anyone know the answer already?

Edited by razenWing, 27 May 2016 - 01:50 AM.

[El Bandito]

There is no engine heat. There is only mech heat. Mech heat is affected by ambient temperature, movement (or lack of it), JJs, weapons, and heatsinks (SHS/DHS/Truedubs, or lack there of). Since it is affected by ambient temperature, the mech heat will vary while the mech is doing the same thing in different maps.

As for never reaching 100% on lava in Mordor, that's just balance decision to curtail perma-stun. Same reason why enemy Flamers will not send you over 90%.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 May 2016 - 01:59 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Sub 66% throttle or there abouts generates 0.1 H\s and over that 0.2

Less or equal to a TrueDub. Walking or running heat(times 10 for the 1 or 2)

[razenWing]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

Sub 66% throttle or there abouts generates 0.1 H\s and over that 0.2

Less or equal to a TrueDub. Walking or running heat(times 10 for the 1 or 2)

ok, this exact statement from Breakdown is what I don't get

it generates 0.1 h/s. so let's say you run for 10 seconds, that's 1 heat generated. so at 10 second mark, your total heat generated theoretically is at 1.

now, say your basic heat sink, which removes about 0.1 h/s, so at the 10 second mark, your total heat removal is at 1.

Thus, your gage should show 1-1 = 0. however, in practice, at 66% throttle, you are sitting at 4% constant. which makes no sense.

ok, now let's say you move at 100%, which is 0.2 h/s. again with the basic heat, which removes at 0.1h/s.

so this time, at 10 second mark, your gage should be 1 heat... or somewhat less than 1 percent.
Assuming the same rate, after running for 10 interval of 10 seconds... that should be 10 heat, or about 20% gage atm.

(assume max ceiling of 50)

You see where this is going?
Eventually... after 500 seconds, you should shut down just from running. but again... clearly, you don't. on most maps, you stay at 6% or 10% max for hotter maps.

so, obviously, something funky is going on here.

----------------

El Bandito: forget the term "engine heat" or just call it "movement heat" or whatever you like to call it. basically, heat generated NOT from weapon fire. this is the thing I am not understanding. weapon fire heat dissipation... plenty discussed, totally understand. the formula seems basic enough anyhow. however, this "movement heat" is hardly ever discussed, and clearly, throttle position DOES affect your heat dissipation beyond the simple 0.1 h/s at 66% and 0.2 h/s over 66%.

Also how ambient takes into affect is kinda unclear right now. is it a factor that encircle the entire equation, or just on the "movement heat"? from practical experience, it seems to be a external mutiplier like x*(external heat + internal heat) instead of external heat + internal heat (x)... but again, it's never confirmed

like, SOMEONE has to wonder this from time to time right? cause the behavior here fits nothing like real life. it almost should make more sense that mechs running at max speed for too long should shut down at some point, adding another layer of strategy, instead of this weird constant heat at certain level thing... which makes no sense in real world or game world.

Edited by razenWing, 27 May 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[FrontGuard]

he said homeostasis
hehe... he... hehehe...

[IQcreditscore]

razenWing, on 27 May 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

ok, this exact statement from Breakdown is what I don't get

it generates 0.1 h/s. so let's say you run for 10 seconds, that's 1 heat generated. so at 10 second mark, your total heat generated theoretically is at 1.

now, say your basic heat sink, which removes about 0.1 h/s, so at the 10 second mark, your total heat removal is at 1.

Thus, your gage should show 1-1 = 0. however, in practice, at 66% throttle, you are sitting at 4% constant. which makes no sense.

ok, now let's say you move at 100%, which is 0.2 h/s. again with the basic heat, which removes at 0.1h/s.

so this time, at 10 second mark, your gage should be 1 heat... or somewhat less than 1 percent.
Assuming the same rate, after running for 10 interval of 10 seconds... that should be 10 heat, or about 20% gage atm.

(assume max ceiling of 50)

You see where this is going?
Eventually... after 500 seconds, you should shut down just from running. but again... clearly, you don't. on most maps, you stay at 6% or 10% max for hotter maps.

so, obviously, something funky is going on here.

----------------

El Bandito: forget the term "engine heat" or just call it "movement heat" or whatever you like to call it. basically, heat generated NOT from weapon fire. this is the thing I am not understanding. weapon fire heat dissipation... plenty discussed, totally understand. the formula seems basic enough anyhow. however, this "movement heat" is hardly ever discussed, and clearly, throttle position DOES affect your heat dissipation beyond the simple 0.1 h/s at 66% and 0.2 h/s over 66%.

Also how ambient takes into affect is kinda unclear right now. is it a factor that encircle the entire equation, or just on the "movement heat"? from practical experience, it seems to be a external mutiplier like x*(external heat + internal heat) instead of external heat + internal heat (x)... but again, it's never confirmed

like, SOMEONE has to wonder this from time to time right? cause the behavior here fits nothing like real life. it almost should make more sense that mechs running at max speed for too long should shut down at some point, adding another layer of strategy, instead of this weird constant heat at certain level thing... which makes no sense in real world or game world.

Unfortunately because of the type of cooling system involved (a fluid which is circulated through heatsinks ergo radiators) then the cooling does work like that of a car engine. Also assuming that 0 on the gauge is a definable temperature is incorrect. 0% may be the level where the gauge begins to read coolant temp or reactor temp (I think mechwarior is reactor temp as a % and not coolant temp as a % but it still works either way). Think of it NOT in terms of % workload available but in how humans actually gauge the operating temperature of engines in general. 0% is at or below the beginning of what is considered the standard operating range. A car in very cold environments can be driven as soon as it starts and the oil begins to circulate but will register at the bottom of the guage. It's efficiency is below peak for modern emissions but in all other aspects it is operable. It is actually operating below the level the guage bothers to even register. Think of 0% in that regard. It was easier than defining the temperature in a design regard probably.

The trick is not looking at it from a straight scientific/mathstuff angle. The ambient temperature effect you see in some maps that put you at say 6% are because the efficiency of heat transfer from the heat sinks is diminished. Drive a car and increase the ambient temperature up and continue doing so. Eventually the cooling efficiency is reduced as the outside temperature of the warmer coolant circulated to the radiator becomes closer to the coolant temperature.

A reactor or car engine does not just build infinite heat or build it to catastrophic failure levels unless you overcome the cooling efficiency or overwork them in some way. And yes pulling the rods all the way out in an older style reactor and leaving them until the amount of neutrons emitted overcome the capacity of the water to both slow their movement and not flash steam when in contact with rods counts as overcoming the cooling efficiency. A car engine with a lack of oil which increases friction dramatically will overcome it's ability to cool itself. etc

[EgoSlayer]

EL Bandito has it right - the engine and movement doesn't produce heat in MWO. What happens is that movement locks out/reserves some of the heat capacity of the mech. Running/full throttle appears to consume ~2 units of the heat capacity of the mech, which for most mechs means ~2-3% of the total heat capacity the mech. That's why the heat bar stays fixed at a certain percentage when moving and doing nothing else.

If movement was actually producing heat at a constant rate and you were doing no other actions the indication would stay at zero because the dissipation rate exceeds what movement actually generates. If dissipation was not greater than what movement generates it would continue to climb until it reached 100%.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 27 May 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Mcgral18]

razenWing, on 27 May 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

ok, this exact statement from Breakdown is what I don't get

it generates 0.1 h/s. so let's say you run for 10 seconds, that's 1 heat generated. so at 10 second mark, your total heat generated theoretically is at 1.

now, say your basic heat sink, which removes about 0.1 h/s, so at the 10 second mark, your total heat removal is at 1.

Thus, your gage should show 1-1 = 0. however, in practice, at 66% throttle, you are sitting at 4% constant. which makes no sense.

ok, now let's say you move at 100%, which is 0.2 h/s. again with the basic heat, which removes at 0.1h/s.

so this time, at 10 second mark, your gage should be 1 heat... or somewhat less than 1 percent.
Assuming the same rate, after running for 10 interval of 10 seconds... that should be 10 heat, or about 20% gage atm.

(assume max ceiling of 50)

You see where this is going?
Eventually... after 500 seconds, you should shut down just from running. but again... clearly, you don't. on most maps, you stay at 6% or 10% max for hotter maps.

so, obviously, something funky is going on here.

----------------

El Bandito: forget the term "engine heat" or just call it "movement heat" or whatever you like to call it. basically, heat generated NOT from weapon fire. this is the thing I am not understanding. weapon fire heat dissipation... plenty discussed, totally understand. the formula seems basic enough anyhow. however, this "movement heat" is hardly ever discussed, and clearly, throttle position DOES affect your heat dissipation beyond the simple 0.1 h/s at 66% and 0.2 h/s over 66%.

Also how ambient takes into affect is kinda unclear right now. is it a factor that encircle the entire equation, or just on the "movement heat"? from practical experience, it seems to be a external mutiplier like x*(external heat + internal heat) instead of external heat + internal heat (x)... but again, it's never confirmed

like, SOMEONE has to wonder this from time to time right? cause the behavior here fits nothing like real life. it almost should make more sense that mechs running at max speed for too long should shut down at some point, adding another layer of strategy, instead of this weird constant heat at certain level thing... which makes no sense in real world or game world.

It generates 0.1 or 0.2 H/s, but you cool at 2 H/s with 10 TrueDubs alone, thus you never gain heat.

Same is true for weapons. Your heat bar doesn't rise until you generate more heat than you can dissipate (see Lasers, where the first may generate 3% heat, each subsequent would generate a random number of, say, 5, because the initial dissipation reduces the initial heat)


There's also environmental heat, which affects your dissipation and heat capacity.

[SpiralFace]

To add to what Mcgral said,

Heat is only dissipated once generated. Your dissipation doesn't act as a buffer against generating heat, its a value that it removes heat once it is accumulated.

In the case of the engine heat while moving, your perpetually assumed to be generating that .1 or .2 heat a second so while theoretically, your heat sinks keep that value in check for a zero value total in dissipation, your still perpetually accumulating that value to dissipate, so its never truly "lost" from the scale because you are continuously getting the new heat value which your heat sinks then have to dissipate once accumulated. Which is why your heat dial is constantly showing a value on your mech.

This value will vary based on your mech's total heat threshold, which is dependent on the amount of heatsinks your mech is carrying. More Heat sinks, less percentile value of your total heat capacity your physical movement accumulates. I don't believe outside environment factors affect your mech's total heat "threshold" I believe it only affects the value at which the mech is able to dissipate the heat itself.