33 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Lol the Jam on those things.

Down time of 7.5s + 4s, jesus. I get that it's basically UAC40 when it doesn't jam, but it's also UAC -115 when it does. Simmilarly, the UAC10 is basically UAC20 when it doesn't jam, but it's UAC -80 when it does, the UAC5 is UAC10 when it doesn't jam, and about UAC -45 when it does, finally the UAC2 is UAC4, but it's around UAC -24 when it does.

Being funny aside, this system is just frustrating, too damn frustrating. RAC is kinda okay, despite the idiotically long stream it puts out with a random amount of extra time above redline, because you have a time to shoot before redline. And lets face it, it's fun plowing enemies with a flurry of shels.

But the UACs? Well, it's basically "**** your flow" when it jams, and the enemy would just see your poker face.

Can we just get these tweaks?

> Jamming lets out one shot/volley at least. That means even if you jam, you let out a single damaging volley/shot, that UAC20 would basically ensure that you did 40 damage, but did extra "cooldown" in the process. Understandably, there could be longer jamming.

Or

> 0% jamming, with +50% cooldown. Baiscally the UAC20 would do ensured 40 damage divided over 2 volleys that you can choose when to shoot, and it will never jam, but you cooldown every 6s instead of 4, or maybe longer.

/rant

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 June 2018 - 11:43 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Yeah... big UACs are a rush when they work, but having RNG determine whether you carry or get bent over a stump is just frustrating.

Another possibility (just to spitball ideas around): Have Ultra mode fill up a bar like RACs and flamers do, but change what happens when the bar fills.

In TT, overuse of Ultra mode could result in the weapon becoming nonfunctional for the rest of the battle. Since leaving it up to RNG is undesirable in a shooter, have this state represented by direct damage dealt to the weapon itself when Ultra mode is used twice or more in a row. The weapon's damage state would show up as a color change on its status bar, just like 'Mech component damage- from nominal, to yellow, then orange, then red.

Firing the weapon more than once per firing cycle would fill up the bar, at a rate to be determined per weapon (UAC2s and 5s might not need to be limited as harshly as 10s and 20s). Not firing the weapon for a whole firing cycle would cause it to empty over time (again, rate TBD per weapon), allowing further safe use of Ultra mode. Firing the weapon at normal rate would cause no status change on the bar; it would neither fill nor empty. If double-tapped when the bar is already full, damage would be dealt to the weapon for every Ultra-mode shot fired until the weapon is destroyed.

RNG would be removed from the equation, UACs would keep their ability to push additional damage when needed, but pushing them too hard would very predictably result in serious consequences. UACs would become a consistent peek/burst weapon, rather than a DPS staredown weapon with random stunlocks, which could make them a favorable alternative to lasers for skilled players able to restrain themselves from overusing the dakka.

Possible downsides to this mechanic? Skilled players would quickly realize that they could abuse Ultra mode freely when they were down to their last few shots, since without ammo it wouldn't matter if the weapon took damage anyway. Possible solution- inflict damage not only to the weapon, but also to the mount location's structure. Also, buffs would likely be needed to standard ACs and LBX in order to keep them competitive, as a guaranteed second shot on the first use of Ultra mode would make UACs the clear winners even with burst-fire shot mechanics in place. Reducing the normal fire rate of UACs might be an option at that point, to differentiate them further.


In order to reduce the impact of RNG on RACs, their "jamming" could be tied to the override mechanic. When override is not engaged, filling up the jam bar would simply result in the weapon not firing, but would not result in a jam. When override is engaged (disabling all of the safety limits of the 'Mech), the weapon could be fired past the end of the bar, with the consequence of progressively higher damage to the weapon and/or mount location structure the longer the weapon is fired. IMO that would also necessitate a rethinking of the weapon's damage per shot, since its ability to push higher-than-normal damage would be a "break glass in case of very bad thing" option rather than a normal play mechanic... but it would still make the weapon's performance more consistent, which is desirable.

Again- just spitballing.

[Michelle Branch]

I've never tested the IS UAC20. Run the CUAC on my Gurgles and it's still pretty amazing when you get into brawling range.

I'm fine with the jam times tbh. A UAC that doesn't jam or rarely jams can easily go into OP/Anti-Fun territory, and that ain't cool beans to me.

It's a risk/reward weapon and I think it's currently fine where it sits...At least the CUAC20.

[lazorbeamz]

The jam was never the problem. It gets double alpha strike and 40% more dps WITH jams.

Clan Ultra 20. I ve said enough about it the weapon is nearly unusable because the facetime takes an eternity, it needs to be used separately from the lasers (because of lead point) and the velocity is criminal.

Clan ultra 10 is also slightly disappointing as well. It has a "beam duration" of 720 ms. Compare this to 330 ms for IS ultra 10. Perhaps its ok because it only weights 10 tons and has low slot requirements.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 29 June 2018 - 12:59 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

IMO the IS ultras are heavy, but totally usable. uac20 still is more meh than okay, even with quirks.

clans though? I used to love my ultras, back before they where nerfed into what they are today.
boated? yeah, use them. madcat-b effing rules.
single? heck, no. no... just no. so bad.

dear pgi; if you decide to un-f*ck the clan-ultras and srms again, MAYBE your laserboating problem solves itself.
it is there in the first place because you took everything else away that was fun and usable. today we only have some 'usable' things/builds.
But I'd like to have fun again when I drive a clan-mech. :-/

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 29 June 2018 - 03:21 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

UACs need to get rid off the RNG jam mechanic. Just implement a jam bar like you have for RACs, done.

[Christophe Ivanov]

"clans though? I used to love my ultras, back before they where nerfed into what they are today.
boated? yeah, use them. madcat-b effing rules.
single? heck, no. no... just no. so bad"

THIS is why I play LESS and less these days. Compared to last year at this point, my game play is more than half and far less fun.
I highly doubted PGI will do anything to fix their mess up on these weapons.

As a gamer since the mid 1980's, I can tell you this game has been nerfed, buffed into something nothing like it used to be. Is it better? from my point of view, Sadly NO.

Edited by Christophe Ivanov, 29 June 2018 - 05:03 AM.

[Axys Rageborn]

I have been thinking about this alot as I am not a fan of how UAC's are atm. I reckon it would be cool to see them change to a two round clip that uses auto loading mechanics similiar to tank auto loaders.

Take the UAC20 for example, keep the ability to fire as it does now (without the jam mechanic) but now it comes with new draw backs,

1 - The 1st round would cause a small amount of recoil so the 2nd wasn't 100% on the same spot if the player chooses to fire both rounds by double tapping.

2 - Firing both rounds (emptying the clip) would incure a longer reload then if you had only fired one round like a standard AC20.

This would be represented by the clip needing to load each round individually.

ie - full clip reload = 10 seconds ( 1st round = 6 secs then 2nd round = 4)
- half clip reload = 4 seconds

UAC's would still be heavier and hotter but would have better burst (if needed) but wouldn't punish a player for double tapping in a desired momment.

It keeps the flavor of a burst style weapon but gives the player options as to when and where "double tapping" could be used. It also eliminates the need for RNG and gives the weapon system its own pros and cons.

This would also translate to all the other calibers aswell and make them feel different from thier AC brothers.

It also kinda acts like a jam function but allows a player to keep firing except without the ability to "double tap" unless they finish the full reload.

Edited by Axys Rageborn, 29 June 2018 - 05:31 AM.

[Korz]

Really the easy fix is a better fire mechanic. Right now your not sure if you fired it in single or double fire. It should require you to hold down the button to go into utlra mode much like the rotary's. Otherwise it should just fire in single mode. I know some have advocated for single vs double click but that can be a bit harder to control in the heat of battle. Holding the button down vs just tapping is a much easier and quicker fix. Then you don't even risk a jam if your just tapping the button. Which is when the weapons really let you down.

[process]

One solution is to exchange jam chance for jam duration: maybe like 75% chance to jam, but only like 25% additional cooldown penalty. The concept is to use the jam mechanic to limit overall DPS to only slightly higher than regular ACs, but offers the possibility of higher burst DPS. The substantially lower cooldown penalty gives them better sustain; it wouldn't jam so much as it would need slightly more time to recycle.

The proposed math, not including time between projectiles:

AC20: 20 damage, 4s cooldown = 5 DPS
UAC20, best case: 40 damage, 4s cooldown = 10 DPS
UAC20, worst case: 20 damage, 5s cooldown = 4 DPS

Net UAC20 performance = 0.25*best case + 0.75*worst case = 5.5 DPS


Compared with the current mechanics (15% jam chance, 7.5s penalty):

UAC20, best case: 40 damage, 4s cooldown = 10 DPS
UAC20, worst case: 20 damage, 11.5s cooldown = 1.74 DPS

Net UAC20 performance = 0.85*best case + 0.15*worst case = 8.75 DPS

Edited by process, 29 June 2018 - 06:41 AM.

[Tordin]

Cut the ghost heat BS on both IS and Clan AC 20/ UAC 20 and there would be no need for jam chance reductions.

[roboPrancer]

Considering the spread that you get from the pellets and the terrible velocity I think they could definitely use a buff. I currently would never take a uac20 over another autocannon except for extreme cases where it might pair with mrm spam for burst damage.

[Tarogato]

Tordin, on 29 June 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Cut the ghost heat BS on both IS and Clan AC 20/ UAC 20 and there would be no need for jam chance reductions.

What's the reason for LB20 to even exist if the AC20 and UAC20 can fire without ghost heat?

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 29 June 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

What's the reason for LB20 to even exist if the AC20 and UAC20 can fire without ghost heat?

I think we all know what LB20 doesn't even have the reason to exist right now.

[LordNothing]

i think id take burst fire to the extreme. the weapon has am 8 round clip with each round being 5 damage. you can fire as many rounds as you want until the clip is emptied, release to stop firing. it then goes into cd to reload the clip. cd is based on number of rounds fired, so if you fire 4 rounds, you only have half the cool down. the first 4 rounds are free but the latter 4 can jam. there would be a single jam roll at the beginning of the burst to determine how many rounds can fire before jamming. you would have an 75% chance of clearing the clip without a jam, the remaining 25% is distributed among firing 0-4 extra rounds with a jam on a curve so that round 5 has a tiny chance to jam but round 8 would jam a lot more. players can try to fire 5 or 6 round bursts to reduce the chance of jamming or they can go for broke and try to empty the clip.

[Captain Polux]

There's nothing worse than facing an enemy and the 20s jam immediately. Like, no shots were even fired but the weapons jam anyways. It's rude!

[Y E O N N E]

Tordin, on 29 June 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Cut the ghost heat BS on both IS and Clan AC 20/ UAC 20 and there would be no need for jam chance reductions.

You do realize that Clan UAC/20 reach out to 414 meters optimum after skill tree and that a pair of UAC/20 double-tapped together would be only marginally less good than the old quad cUAC/10, right? At just a little bit over half the weight of that build, that also leaves plenty of room for a big TC to fix the velocity to be higher than the UAC/10 had back then.

Ghost heat on Ultra 20s should stay. Maybe reduce it slightly, but it's serving a real and useful function.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

You do realize that Clan UAC/20 reach out to 414 meters optimum after skill tree and that a pair of UAC/20 double-tapped together would be only marginally less good than the old quad cUAC/10, right? At just a little bit over half the weight of that build, that also leaves plenty of room for a big TC to fix the velocity to be higher than the UAC/10 had back then.

Ghost heat on Ultra 20s should stay. Maybe reduce it slightly, but it's serving a real and useful function.

I honestly don't mind only being able to shoot 1 UAC20, though being able to shoot 2 CAC20 and/or LB20X would be a good idea. That being said, it would have been valid if the UAC20 is worth bringing, but being frustrating to use it's not.

[The Lighthouse]

Tarogato, on 29 June 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

What's the reason for LB20 to even exist if the AC20 and UAC20 can fire without ghost heat?

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

You do realize that Clan UAC/20 reach out to 414 meters optimum after skill tree and that a pair of UAC/20 double-tapped together would be only marginally less good than the old quad cUAC/10, right? At just a little bit over half the weight of that build, that also leaves plenty of room for a big TC to fix the velocity to be higher than the UAC/10 had back then.

Ghost heat on Ultra 20s should stay. Maybe reduce it slightly, but it's serving a real and useful function.

IS LBX20 already does not really have a reason to exist much, thanks to FASA's ridiculous decision when they introduced LBX20 , 5 and 2 after LBX10 back in the day.


However, if we talk about clan LBX20, in contrast I would not still even bother using cUAC20 if we can fire 2 of them without ghost heat. I mean, LBX20 does have incredible range (though it does spread), twice fast velocity AND lower heat.


It is not like ghost heat of dual AC20 is that crazy bad. The fact is alternative choices such as 2 X snub-nose PPC + 1 X AC20 do generate MORE heat than dual AC20 with ghost heat included. Ghost heat is actually one of the least problems of dual AC20 setup, the three biggest problems are....


1) Velocity.
2) flicky hit reg.
3) Tonnage/slot requirement.

Except, even no.2 and no.3 are truly trivial compared to the biggest problem, velocity.

AC20, UAC20, cUAC20 are all terrible, and allowing them to be fired without ghost heat to 2 won't make any meaningful differences. You just can't compare dual cUAC20 to quad cUAC10, because cUAC10 has twice faster velocity with one less projectile. Unless you are shooting slowest mechs like Annihilator or Direwolf, you will lose tons of damage due to super slow projectiles and spread nature.

Increase ghost heat limit to 3 (means we can fire 2 instead of 1, following PGI term here), increase velocity from 650 to 850 then maybe they are good. No need to change any other things. Still quite hotter than cLBX20, and will still have less velocity but at least we will have some dps from those big ballistic now.


...that is you get lucky and UACs would not jam.... actually I would still use cLBX20 instead.


And IS LBX20, among with 2 and 5, need some major re-balancing regarding tonnage and slots, matching LBX10 case.

[Tarogato]

The Lighthouse, on 29 June 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

IS LBX20 already does not really have a reason to exist much, thanks to FASA's ridiculous decision

The6thMessenger, on 29 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

I think we all know what LB20 doesn't even have the reason to exist right now.

It's not FASA's fault that PGI can't write code for crit-splitting.

The LB20 has a LOT of reason to exist, and PGI invented it. It's called ghost heat. If PGI were to reduce the LB20 slots down to 10 like so many people have recommended, then you would be seeing a LOT more LB20.

Imagine if something like this could actually routinely alpha. It might actually be viable.

But if you remove the ghost heat on AC20 and UAC20, then suddenly the LB20 has no reason to exist again, because it's still a spread weapon instead of a pinpoint weapon.