43 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

invernomuto, on 02 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Square-cube law, for example:

https://en.wikipedia...Square-cube_law

When something increases in size, its volume increases faster than its area. If you double the size of an object for instance, surface area increases by four times, but the volume of that object, which is all the space inside it, increases eightfold.

So you will have to deal with a weight that increase exponentially: That's why, for example, modern main battle tanks are limited to 40-50 tons and we do not have huge monstruosity like the 188 tons Maus of late ww2 era.

Also aircrafts have the same limitations: you cannot make a larger aircraft by simply doubling the proportion of a 747 and think that it will fly: it needs greater wingspan to lift the increased weight.

Imagine a 100 tons robot with its enormous weight distributed on 2 legs: Those legs are going to punch through anything remotely pliable like dirt, sand, grassland, concrete, streets, etc...

Cheers,
D.

Sort of off topic, but this just occurred to me: The old space shuttle weighed in at something like 85 tons empty (could be wrong I just recall hearing this once). So when landing or sitting on the tarmac it is on 3 little legs, with a bunch of wheels/tires displacing that weight certainly, but still if that thing doesn't "punch through" the ground or whatever why do we a assume a mech, even a 100 ton mech, with giant flat feet would? Atlas feet look like they would disperse weight pretty well.

Sorry for my ignorance I really know nothing of the physics of this stuff. I am in the camp of if it is cool but defys physics, then its okay to make a game out of it. If its cool but would ruin the game or its too hard to make it work, oh well, gotta leave it out of the game, physics be damned.

[Ted Wayz]

ironnightbird, on 02 June 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Picture a 100 pound woman sprinting full speed into a 200 pound man, is the woman going to bounce back and fall over? No, and moreover if she runs into the mans back she'd probably knock him down. If you want to ask for this, be prepared for the consequences cuz 100-200 pound people can sprint at the same speed, but not mechs. The physics and result is not what you imagine it to be.

P.S. knock down with weapons don't happen, not unless they also knock down the shooter.

You are ignoring many elements that enter into the equation. What is the angle of impact and relative velocities? You are then ignoring the engineering advances in gyros. There is a great scene in the show Silicon Valley where a 150-ish pound man kicks a robotic mini-deer and the gyros correct its balance and it remains upright. Watch videos of DEKA's iBot, and that technology is 20 years old and primitive by current standards.

And the knocking down the shooter upon firing a shot? I think you might be confusing how for every action equal reaction works.

An AC20 round travelling at the velocities stated in the source material cannot impact with enough force to knock down a locust, or even slow it down for that matter. The math really isn't that hard.

[Moldur]

It's barely been a page and it has already become a minutia contest. This'll be fun to check out 6 pages later. I wonder how many spreadsheets and wiki articles I'll have to read through.

[Archangel.84]

Novakaine, on 02 June 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

Because a group of jackasses decided it was funny to knock down a dev.
And post stupid videos oi on YouTube.
Simple truth.

So... permaban the jackasses, don't take away a core Battletech game mechanic that's been in all previous Mechwarriors? Every time I see this as the reason I roll my eyes.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

invernomuto, on 02 June 2016 - 05:35 AM, said:

Could you please elaborate this point?

Action=reaction
Flying away after shotgun shot is a hollywood invent.

In BT if remember correctly is explained that gyro can be tricked and lost its balance after fast massive armor remove which result in other weight distribution.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 02 June 2016 - 08:36 AM.

[DaFrog]

Ted Wayz, on 02 June 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

Why not? I can use the actual laws of physics to prove my point, and have in various threads. What supports your supposition? Have you seen the advances in PBA and robotics in the last ten years?

And they can run in water at full speed ? Really ? Just like this game ? Tell me in 300 years we will have technology that cancels all water friction and resistance on a humanoid shape running through it and I'll make sure my descendants invest in that..

Laws of physics in this game my a..

[Jaeger Gonzo]

No water impact is PGI invented BS.

[Variant1]

knockdown in pve? yes
knockdown in pvp? HECK NO

[wanderer]

Quote

P.S. knock down with weapons don't happen, not unless they also knock down the shooter.

IMHO, things capable of tearing limbs off generally cause enough transferal of force to unbalance the target on impact.

It'll never come back, however- because PGI is incapable of actually fixing the coding. Simple as that.

[Helsbane]

wanderer, on 02 June 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

IMHO, things capable of tearing limbs off generally cause enough transferal of force to unbalance the target on impact.

It'll never come back, however- because PGI is incapable of actually fixing the coding. Simple as that.

That's because in order to change anything that large they'd end up playing a game of bandaid Jenga that would pretty much destroy the game.

[Jonathan Paine]

I miss knockdowns and hope that PGI fulfills it very long overdue promise to fix the code and bring it back. Letting Paul take out game mechanics because he got trolled is not the way to go.

Thoughts for knockdown:
1. Not something that happens every time two mechs collide, make it a (randomly rolled) probability that increases with:
- Increased kinetic force (mass of mech times velocity squared) (two mechs running into each other at 150kps should crash)
- Loss of actuators (yay, mechs with no arm actuators finally gets a nerf!)
- Loss of limbs!
- Mech utilizing MASC!

2. Let piloting skill picks and modules decrease the probability of being knocked down!
- Add in a improved GYRO that weights more to decrease the chance of being knocked down (and hey, maybe a lighter gyro that increases the odds of going down - choice is good!)

3. Implement DFA and let both parties crash and burn after impact!
(Again to be modified by piloting skill trees, modules and possibly gyro modifications)

[wanderer]

Let's just remember that convergence was "fixed" by basically removing it entirely. So too was the collision system, though that was in the depths of the pre-open-beta coding. Most improvements have been crudely grafted onto the original coding, and there's plenty of more refined things that would take the kind of competent programmers PGI utterly lacks.

It reminds me of the old days where you'd see ports of a game missing huge chunks of the original simply because the people doing it couldn't make it fit/had no idea how it worked to begin with.

[cazidin]

wanderer, on 02 June 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Let's just remember that convergence was "fixed" by basically removing it entirely. So too was the collision system, though that was in the depths of the pre-open-beta coding. Most improvements have been crudely grafted onto the original coding, and there's plenty of more refined things that would take the kind of competent programmers PGI utterly lacks.

It reminds me of the old days where you'd see ports of a game missing huge chunks of the original simply because the people doing it couldn't make it fit/had no idea how it worked to begin with.

To be fair to PGI, Comstar recalled the Techs that were experienced with this engine for reasons unknown. I've heard rumors of an invasion from beyond the periphery but I don't trust these sources.

[VonWolfman]

I would very much like the knockdowns to return. I keep asking in the town hall meetings, but it never seems to come up....

[cazidin]

I'm opposed to knockdowns without severe restrictions to prevent griefing, harassment, trolling, etc. Honestly, is it worth it at this point given how much resources PGI would have to utilize to re-implement this?

[Helsbane]

VonWolfman, on 02 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

I would very much like the knockdowns to return. I keep asking in the town hall meetings, but it never seems to come up....

That's because real questions scare Russ and Paul. Better to ask what the next mechpack will be.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

It ain't worth the trouble of balancing

Plus I don't think this game engine would ever support it fully functioning as conceived on a PvP level as others posted. It was very messy back in closed beta for both in-game purposes and for hit registration

Though I do miss my old 400xl Atlas brawler in CB, alpha + knockdown + alpha = rivers of tears!

[SuomiWarder]

The OP was writing about weapon knockdown. That we never had in closed beta. Collision knockdown is what all that Dragon Bowling talk is about as the Dragon got a bonus for knockdown for some reason and could bowling ball anything it hit.

[Chuck Jager]

What you see in this game and most online games is not what everybody else sees and gets. Stun locks have been a way for game devs to mitigate the problems with hit reg, so they also become the most powerful weapon thus bypassing all lore and physical mechanics.

STUNS SUCK and are EASY to ABUSE and just as hard to BALANCE in online gaming

[Ted Wayz]

invernomuto, on 02 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Square-cube law, for example.

I do not think you understand what you are quoting. This is the trap of the interwebz, so much information but in many cases little understanding.

You could have a ginormous tank if you wanted. It would just require an enormous amount of power to make it mobile. The limitation is the combustion engine, not our ability to build huge tanks. Have you seen excavators and trucks used in high capacity mining operations? With an operating weight of over 600,000 kg the Caterpillar 797F far outweighs the largest mech.

And as for crunching through earth, no. That is a whole other realm of physics but it is easy to point out that with all the earth underneath it a mech isn't going to sink to it's knees with every step. Would like to see more realistic movement on slopes, in bogs, or in loose terrain however.

But back to the point. This is easy mode math and I invite you to try it yourself. Look up the weight and velocity of an AC20 round and calculate the force of impact. Apply the vector in any way you want to a 20 ton locust and tell me what happens.