146 replies to this topic

[Luca M Pryde]

Just saying when mechs alpha strike they shouldn't be able to run behind cover again because of the sudden immense power draw. Also the intense heat would have an effect on the pilot. The pilot can't endure constant alpha strikes and their aim would go awry.

Also, alpha strikes in faction play are annoying when you have higher ping because if you try to peak a boo the delay almost always results in you getting hit even though it seems you are safely behind cover. Since faction play is only on the USA servers this adds to the frustration.

Oceanic servers ease the pain a bit but not completely.

Edited by Luca M Pryde, 03 June 2016 - 09:02 PM.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 June 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

The whole reason 'Mechs are powerful in BT is precisely because they have the power of several tanks on a platform that has far more agility and dexterity.

false.

Tech Manual.

Also:
Note that 1 Battletank, 100 tons, 4 LRM-5s, 2 AC/10s...



This specific Behemoth has more armor than an Atlas can possibly carry because the maximum armor for a 100 ton tank EXCEEDS that possible for a 100 ton mech... by quite a bit. This tank is also 100% stock and has destroyed 1 Atlas, 5 total out of 8 Enforcers... all after being Tracked (which is to say that one of its two tracks have been disabled and it couldn't move).
All within 40 seconds before it was destroyed (70 seconds altogether; if you count when the first shot was fired).
(Note: 3 Enforcers are already destroyed at the time of this image).
(The Commando is responsible for 0 kills and dies in this turn; instantly destroyed by a single blow from the Atlas).

That's a single 100 ton tank, taking out 100 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 (350 tons) of mechs.. without being able to even move. Imagine if it didn't get tracked. (That's just counting what it killed; it crippled two other mechs to the point that they can't stand).
As for weapons? Each mech has about the same amount of weaponry or less, and those that have more have less mobility than this tank, especially since this tank is faster than the Atlas.

Edited by Koniving, 03 June 2016 - 06:48 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

false.

I would point out that absolutely none of that contradicts what I said, because what I said did not in any way imply that vehicles are inferior.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 June 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

I would point out that absolutely none of that contradicts what I said, because what I said did not in any way imply that vehicles are inferior.

.....Fair. It doesn't contradict what was said directly.
However mechs really don't carry much more in the way of firepower compared to tanks of equivalent weight in Battletech. MWO is another story, but this is because almost everyone's got an XL engine. Akin to vehicles, some mechs carry a lot or almost no firepower (Charger's a good example of the latter for Mechs).
Mobility really depends; each has traits better than others; where mechs excel over most tanks is the ability to climb, step over and around things... abilities that basically don't exist in MWO in the same sense. Wheeled vehicles basically beat mechs in speed, tracked vehicles basically beat mechs in traversing rough terrain, hover tanks beat mechs in overall mobility on agreeable surfaces but can easily have their drive system fried. As with everything in Battletech, its a paper rock scissors lizard Spock scenario so a generalized statement can just as easily be false as it can be true... Just depends on what you compare it to.

[Tarl Cabot]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Some things to consider:

• Firing all weapons in tabletop is to fire all weapons within a 10 second span of time, exactly one user per weapon.
  
  • That is within 10 seconds... an AC/20 does 20 damage, a medium laser does 5 damage, etc.
    
  • In MWO... within 10 seconds an AC/20 without ANY quirks does 60 damage, a medium laser does 15.
    
  • Even then, despite tabletops horrific Front Loaded Pinpoint Damage (Per Weapon), it is scattered all over the enemy mech. Sure the 2-to-100 shot AC/20 is given horrific front loaded pinpoint damage to one section of the mech and the medium laser (averaging 3 shots in lore to get a total of 5 damage) manages exactly one component, but such is the summarized nature of Battletech tabletop.
• In Battletech itself, the "Alpha Strike" is to fire all weapons at exactly the same time.
  
  • -snip-

To note: My choice is Combat Simulation; but MWO IS Candy Crush Saga.

What happened to BT Solaris with its 2.5 sec turns? Fire one weapon or fire a TIC (weapon group) but can not do both. is versions ERLL/LPL/ERppc Rifles all had long delays (cooldown) in 7.5sec cooldown or delay of 3. Fire an ERLL in Rnd 1, can not fire it again until Rnd4. isML had a delay of 1 (2.5 secs). cERLL/LPL/ERPPC and is/cGauss Rifle+all AC 20 variants had delay of 2 or 5sec cooldown. The other weapons were either 0-1 delay.


Simply noting that even though BT boardgame came first, FASA did break down the game further with Solaris, in the same manner that Battleforce increased the game turn to taken in operating larger units. PGI has the heavier/larger weapons firing quicker than need be. Even with the higher heat it allows players to focus on one weapon (4LL/4ERLL/etc) instead of making a player consider both long cooldown, high heat long range weapons and short cooldown, lower heat short range weapons. Then add an actual heatscale that does more than just the shutdown at 100%.

Quote

Just saying when mechs alpha strike they shouldn't be able to run behind cover again because of the sudden immense power draw. Also the intense heat would have an effect on the pilot. The pilot can't endure constant alpha strikes and their aim would awry.

And correct, with a functional heatscale, while not setup as harsh as the BT/Solaris heatscale, but something along the line of 50%/75%/90-95% mark, slowing mech by 15%/25%/35%, soft override avail at 90-95% mark, mech component damage (heatsinks both external/engine) @ 100-105/110% then hard shutdown @105/110% mark. Said percent marks would be labeled on the scale.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 June 2016 - 07:09 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

false.

Tech Manual.

Also:
Note that 1 Battletank, 100 tons, 4 LRM-5s, 2 AC/10s...



This specific Behemoth has more armor than an Atlas can possibly carry because the maximum armor for a 100 ton tank EXCEEDS that possible for a 100 ton mech... by quite a bit. This tank is also 100% stock and has destroyed 1 Atlas, 5 total out of 8 Enforcers... all after being Tracked (which is to say that one of its two tracks have been disabled and it couldn't move).
All within 40 seconds before it was destroyed (70 seconds altogether; if you count when the first shot was fired).
(Note: 3 Enforcers are already destroyed at the time of this image).
(The Commando is responsible for 0 kills and dies in this turn; instantly destroyed by a single blow from the Atlas).

That's a single 100 ton tank, taking out 100 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 (350 tons) of mechs.. without being able to even move. Imagine if it didn't get tracked. (That's just counting what it killed; it crippled two other mechs to the point that they can't stand).
As for weapons? Each mech has about the same amount of weaponry or less, and those that have more have less mobility than this tank, especially since this tank is faster than the Atlas.

Yeah, really. Tanks are just as bad ***, if not more so then battlemechs. Smaller targets means harder to hit, harder to hit+ tons more armor = really bad ***. I wouldnt wanna run into an Alacorn or a Von Luckner, Shreck or any tank, thye are bad as hell.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Luca M Pryde, on 03 June 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

Just saying when mechs alpha strike they shouldn't be able to run behind cover again because of the sudden immense power draw. Also the intense heat would have an effect on the pilot. The pilot can't endure constant alpha strikes and their aim would awry.

Also, alpha strikes in faction play are annoying when you have higher ping because if you try to peak a boo the delay almost always results in you getting hit even though it seems you are safely behind cover. Since faction play is only on the USA servers this adds to the frustration.

Oceanic servers ease the pain a bit but not completely.

This game would really change if PGI added in pilot effects. Dont mechs also move via foot pedals, as in the pilot is sitting there, doing what would equate to pumping the brake and gas pedal in the car over and over and over again to move the mech? Pilot fatigue would be a thing, high heat affecting the pilot would be a thing. Work in a kitchen for 12 hours when they are cooking for 300 people, for hours on end, your just exposed to very high heat. Its exhausting, sweating, and all that **** for hours at a time. Now amplify that heat by the power of the multi ton weapons were firing off mechs, it would be purely unbearable. The mech might be able to alpha strike, the pilot is the one who couldnt take it. Pilots im sure are not in a big rush to die of heat exhaustion in combat. So, they would stagger fire, heat management and wouldnt be endlessly firing 9 SPL every 3s just cuz its ready.

The Alpha strike all the things is purely a gamey gimmick meant for the CoD crowd. A proper battletech sim would see many features that slows down the pace of the game. Lights running around at 150kph endlessly, the pilot would be dead, like the guy who ran across Greece and dropped dead...pretty much that same kinda thing I imagine.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

.....Fair. It doesn't contradict what was said directly.
However mechs really don't carry much more in the way of firepower compared to tanks of equivalent weight in Battletech. MWO is another story, but this is because almost everyone's got an XL engine. Akin to vehicles, some mechs carry a lot or almost no firepower (Charger's a good example of the latter for Mechs).
Mobility really depends; each has traits better than others; where mechs excel over most tanks is the ability to climb, step over and around things... abilities that basically don't exist in MWO in the same sense. Wheeled vehicles basically beat mechs in speed, tracked vehicles basically beat mechs in traversing rough terrain, hover tanks beat mechs in overall mobility on agreeable surfaces but can easily have their drive system fried. As with everything in Battletech, its a paper rock scissors lizard Spock scenario so a generalized statement can just as easily be false as it can be true... Just depends on what you compare it to.

I've actually been re-writing some of the BattleTech fluff on my own time. In it, I describe 'Mechs as being useful only because they can wield the same weapons as conventional vehicles on a platform with the same dexterity that a human would wield, which makes them force-multipliers when piloted with well-trained and well-practiced pilots.

[Lightfoot]

MWO has very slow heat dissipation, which is why ERPPCs don't work without quirks. It is probably the way MWO has configured it's hit-box mechanics, but the effect is that MWO's mechs are about twice as weak to damage as previous MechWarrior games. Alpha Strikes and things like 2xGauss or 6xMPL would be mitigated better by a dual hit-box where the inner hitbox grants full damage and the outer hit-box deflects some damage. This would also be more like TT's randomness.

[Steel Claws]

Any resemblance of this live action video game to a turn based board game is purely incidental... You mileage may vary, batteries not included...

[topgun505]

Paigan, on 03 June 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

What would you rather have? 1 AC10, 1 med laser, 1 PPC, 1 SRM because it LOOKS cool and versatile?
It's garbage, that's what it is. Mathematically, tactically, everythingically.

Also consider:
Even in TT alpha strikes happen all the time.

*snip*

True. But in TT you DO see a LOT of builds like the one you mention at the top. A lot of designs are FAR from optimized. They had weapons of all range bands and types. Basically a swiss army knife of weapons, a little of everything.

Just pointing out the flipside to your coin.

[Hit the Deck]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

Mobility really depends; each has traits better than others; where mechs excel over most tanks is the ability to climb, step over and around things... abilities that basically don't exist in MWO in the same sense. Wheeled vehicles basically beat mechs in speed, tracked vehicles basically beat mechs in traversing rough terrain, hover tanks beat mechs in overall mobility on agreeable surfaces but can easily have their drive system fried.

That's interesting because what you said is similar to what this article states: http://breakingdefen...ns-faster-than/

It says that the military develops robots so they can have the ability to send them to climb over obstacles.

[Gas Guzzler]

Luca M Pryde, on 03 June 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

Just saying when mechs alpha strike they shouldn't be able to run behind cover again because of the sudden immense power draw. Also the intense heat would have an effect on the pilot. The pilot can't endure constant alpha strikes and their aim would go awry.

Also, alpha strikes in faction play are annoying when you have higher ping because if you try to peak a boo the delay almost always results in you getting hit even though it seems you are safely behind cover. Since faction play is only on the USA servers this adds to the frustration.

Oceanic servers ease the pain a bit but not completely.

I have never heard terms like "power draw" until people started begging PGI for alpha limiters. There is no energy draw limit in BattleTech, there is only heat. You are literally making up the mechanic that "You can't have enough energy to fire all your weapons and then move back into cover", that has NEVER been a thing, ever.

If heat weren't a thing, then I would advocate power draw all the way, like some other shooters that don't have something like heat. But that isn't MechWarrior to me at all, if anything that sounds more like MechAssault than MechWarrior.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 June 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

I've actually been re-writing some of the BattleTech fluff on my own time. In it, I describe 'Mechs as being useful only because they can wield the same weapons as conventional vehicles on a platform with the same dexterity that a human would wield, which makes them force-multipliers when piloted with well-trained and well-practiced pilots.

I would add that a battlemech only needs 1 person to be fully functional, a tank will generally need 2 or more, a bigger tank will need even more to crew it.

[Weeny Machine]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

I have never heard terms like "power draw" until people started begging PGI for alpha limiters. There is no energy draw limit in BattleTech, there is only heat.

...and a different heatscale. Excessive heat results in drawbacks at once. It limites your alphas signifcantly (especially in 3025)

[Chuck Jager]

Luca M Pryde, on 03 June 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

It isn't really battletech as we know it. Well it is already pretty far considering IS makes can even fight one on one with clan mechs.

Everyone knows this that knows Battletech.

I have ZERO idea about Battletech. All I know is the video game mechwarrior that I bought in a closeout bin at WalMart during the 90s. Stories change over time and for different audiences.

[VorpalAnvil]

GrimRiver, on 03 June 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

No, I want to put a 50+ alpha every 2.5 seconds in the rear CT of everything I see
and not be punished for alpha'ing all the time. /sarcasm

Lower heat cap to 30-40 and raise heat dissipation rate.

You do realise that you can experience this right now by simply piloting a clan mech?

[Triordinant]

Alpha strikes aren't the problem. The problem is all your weapons hit the same pixel on an enemy 'mech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bush Hopper, on 03 June 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

...and a different heatscale. Excessive heat results in drawbacks at once. It limites your alphas signifcantly (especially in 3025)

Has any MechWarrior game had that? I don't think so. I could do without it.

Also, heat scale is not "power draw", my evaluation of the reasoning that "Mechs can't fire all their weapons and then move into cover because they don't have the energy to do so" stands.... its BS.

GrimRiver, on 03 June 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

No, I want to put a 50+ alpha every 2.5 seconds in the rear CT of everything I see
and not be punished for alpha'ing all the time. /sarcasm

Lower heat cap to 30-40 and raise heat dissipation rate.

Oh cool more made up stuff.

Show me the mech that does 50 damage alphas every 2.5 seconds and doesn't have to worry about heat.

[Gas Guzzler]

Steel Claws, on 03 June 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

How exactly is an alpha strike not realistic?

Haven't you heard of terms like Barrage, Shock and Awe, and Broadside. Military history is positively full of the use of overwhelming firepower to win the day. Why, because it bloody well works of coarse.

There is no problem here - move along - nothing to see.

B-b-b-But positioning is too hard! I don't want to have to use my brain, I should just be able to get mildly damaged first so I know to fight back, its like SO not fair that I can be not paying attention and someone gets to damage me so much. Make it easier for me, please! Oh yeah, mainly because BattleTech, it's definitely because there's a rule that MechWarrior games shouldn't allow alpha strikes otherwise they aren't BattleTech games. That's the real reason.