146 replies to this topic

[DjPush]

Cool shot destroyed this game.

[LordKnightFandragon]

DjPush, on 03 June 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

Cool shot destroyed this game.

How 'bout "press O for unlimited heat"?

[MrJeffers]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 June 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

Then Ghost Heat is failing on all fronts then.

Not all - can you fire 4 C-LPLs scott free? 2 AC 20s? 4 PPCs/ERPPCs?

It does limit a lot of combinations. What it doesn't eliminate is synergies.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MrJeffers, on 03 June 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Not all - can you fire 4 C-LPLs scott free? 2 AC 20s? 4 PPCs/ERPPCs?

It does limit a lot of combinations. What it doesn't eliminate is synergies.

Lol, oddly enough, Ghost Heat promotes dual firing instead of rapid chain fire, since you rapidly chain fire you spike ghost heat and 26 heat becomes 650 heat. Ghost HEat is stupid as ****. I cant fire them scott free but I can fire 4 CLPL in my Warhawk. I can do it once. PPCs oddly generate less heat if you fire them in pairs then if you chain fire them with less then a 1s delay between shots. Its really ********.

Its also doing nothing to curb alphas, obviously, so it's main intention has failed miserably.

[Corrado]

dervishx5, on 03 June 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

This isn't Battletech, it's Mechwarrior.

The sooner people can come to terms with this concept the better for everyone.

just imagine if damage values of weapons could be untied from BT rules like MW3 MW4 games.. LBX doing useful damage for instance... would be a dream.

[Fut]

dervishx5, on 03 June 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

WOW, YOU SO CLEVER.

MechWarrior is a series of video games set in the fictional universe of BattleTech.

It's based on Battletech. But to apply all the rules from the boardgame to a twitch-reflex videogame is stupid. I don't have to explain why because it should be obvious to anyone who's played either game.

Think this is where the beef comes from.
People were sold this game initially on the grounds that it wasn't going to be a twitch-reflex shooter. The fact that it's leaning more that way these days doesn't mean that's where it was meant to be or where it should be.

[MrJeffers]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 June 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Lol, oddly enough, Ghost Heat promotes dual firing instead of rapid chain fire, since you rapidly chain fire you spike ghost heat and 26 heat becomes 650 heat. Ghost HEat is stupid as ****. I cant fire them scott free but I can fire 4 CLPL in my Warhawk. I can do it once. PPCs oddly generate less heat if you fire them in pairs then if you chain fire them with less then a 1s delay between shots. Its really ********.

Its also doing nothing to curb alphas, obviously, so it's main intention has failed miserably.

You're lying to yourself if you can't see that Ghost heat is curbing alphas. Maybe it's not doing it as well as you think it should but again *what* exactly is the definition of what it's supposed to be doing?

A Cicada 2A that Fires 2MLs and 1SL is that an alpha? No? That the stock load out and it IS an alpha.

Is 4 C-MPLs an alpha? No? Thats a stock Ice Ferret.

Screaming "fix it" without defining what needs to be "fixed" is pointless. If it's a damage level then that is *exactly* what ghost heat was for, and what GH 2.0 was supposed to be as well. With GH 2.0 being a global damage threshold to eliminate the synergies that can be had in GH.
If it's not a damage threshold then what is it? Again screaming "fix it" with out defining what needs to be fixed and offering solutions is pointless.

And a lower heat cap isn't the answer, that only drives to heat efficient mechs (e.g. ballistics, heavies/assults that can boat energy + heatsinks) and harms lights/mediums more than anything else because they are mostly energy based and can boat ballistics or the heat sinks necessary to offset a lower cap for energy base bulids.

[dervishx5]

Fut, on 03 June 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

Think this is where the beef comes from.
People were sold this game initially on the grounds that it wasn't going to be a twitch-reflex shooter. The fact that it's leaning more that way these days doesn't mean that's where it was meant to be or where it should be.

Wont argue with you there. The "thinking man's shooter", right?

Well now you guys are realizing that they were going to say anything to get the largest audience possible.

[Fut]

dervishx5, on 03 June 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Wont argue with you there. The "thinking man's shooter", right?

Well now you guys are realizing that they were going to say anything to get the largest audience possible.

Which is really sad when you think about it.
The old Bait and Switch.

I've got my complaints with the game, I'm sure everybody does, but at the end of the day it's still damn fun to play. My only hope is that it doesn't continue to move more towards the Twitch Style.

[Mister Blastman]

dervishx5, on 03 June 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

You're aware of the irony of pointing out the same people always doing the same thing when you're always the one to point it out, yes?

I don't frankly care. My point was my point and that was my point. Interpret as you like but this is the internet--nothing matters. Have a nice day!

[LordKnightFandragon]

MrJeffers, on 03 June 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

You're lying to yourself if you can't see that Ghost heat is curbing alphas. Maybe it's not doing it as well as you think it should but again *what* exactly is the definition of what it's supposed to be doing?

A Cicada 2A that Fires 2MLs and 1SL is that an alpha? No? That the stock load out and it IS an alpha.

Is 4 C-MPLs an alpha? No? Thats a stock Ice Ferret.

Screaming "fix it" without defining what needs to be "fixed" is pointless. If it's a damage level then that is *exactly* what ghost heat was for, and what GH 2.0 was supposed to be as well. With GH 2.0 being a global damage threshold to eliminate the synergies that can be had in GH.
If it's not a damage threshold then what is it? Again screaming "fix it" with out defining what needs to be fixed and offering solutions is pointless.

And a lower heat cap isn't the answer, that only drives to heat efficient mechs (e.g. ballistics, heavies/assults that can boat energy + heatsinks) and harms lights/mediums more than anything else because they are mostly energy based and can boat ballistics or the heat sinks necessary to offset a lower cap for energy base bulids.

Id say the normal burst should be in the 15-20 point range, with anything higher being a little rough on the heat. 40-60 point Alphas should blow your mech up. 40 points is what? 4 ERLL, 4 ERPPCs, 4 PPC, for 60 points that would be 6 of each. Never mind how many small and medium lasers that is. Firing 2-3 weapons every 6-8 seconds is honestly ok, firing 8 every 4s like we do now, not so much. 15-20 points, that is like 2 ML, 2 PPCs, 1 Gauss Rifle, a couple LRM racks, 2-3 AC5s. Alot more reasonable output then 4 ERML, 2 ERLL and a LPL just for kicks. Or 3 ERPPC, or 4 ERLL, or rapidly out putting 4 PPCs with almost no break in the action.

Ive got a HBR that I have 1 LPL and 4 ERML on it, I can fire the ERML in a group of 4, follow it up with the LPL and then do it again in like 3s, ofc then ive gotta cool off, but still...seems a little excessive. Should be more, fire all the guns if I wanna be over heated, but if I want manageable heat with decent sustained fire, 1 LPL, then 2 ERML then 2 ERML. That should be the norm in this game, which is why I say, start with a 40 point max, unchangeable heat scale for all mechs. Does that limit lighter mechs firepower? Absolutely, lights are not meant to be front line fighters with heavy firepower. Blah blah, lights become invalid, no they dont, they just cant be the super fast 6 SPL spamming deathkarts they are now.

Lowering the avg sustainable output to 15-20 would make mechs that mount fewer weapons actually viable. Mechs like the Panther, that rely on that single PPC as it's primary firepower, The Summoner, who has 3 guns and loses so much space to frivolous ********, the Warhawk that loses 75% of its space to absurd amounts of DHS. It would bring a number of mechs back from obscurity and they would be valid again.

The game needs to shift toward, tactics, heat management, teamwork, group focus fire and less towards just mounting as many guns on one mech as you can and cant possibly fit.

Bring the avg sustainable output to 15-20 and we could lose the absurd amount of armor quirks mechs get. The Atlas with its 135t worth of armor, the Zeus with 100t worth of armor, the HUnchback that has like 65t worth of armor on it. We have light mechs with as much leg armor as heavy mechs get ST armor(I think lol, I know at one point we did).

It would make PPCs more viable, since they would be competing against 15-20 points of lasers, instead of 40-60 points worth of lasers, at which point the lasers are just vastly superior in every way. You get 4 ERLL for 15 tons, 8 crits 32 dmg, 36 heat, hit scan and less weight, or you put on 4 ERPPC for 28 tons, 12 crits, 30 dmg and 45 heat, not hit scan and longer cool down. LL even get better ghost heat penalties, which wouldnt really be needed if the heat scale was done up properly. Then players are firing 1 LL vs 1 PPC or ERPPC. They are firing 2-3 ML vs 1 ERPPC,

Then aiming would actually be even more paramount, since each player is firing less weapons per mech, you gotta make them count even more. Of course, given that no one is dying instantly, it would be easier on everyone, make the game a little more enjoyable and even ore skill based, since now you gotta aim sustained over time, instead of 1-3 alphas and down goes a mech.

[Revis Volek]

Luca M Pryde, on 03 June 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Its not realistic. Where are you getting the all the energy from?

Also the lower your ping, the more devastating it is.

Ghost heat breaks the game for some mechs when you do as well.

It isn't really battletech as we know it. Well it is already pretty far considering IS makes can even fight one on one with clan mechs.

Everyone knows this that knows Battletech.

So you would rather be cannon fodder in an IS mech? You'd rahter have no chance of beating a clan mech, even if its 35 tons in a 1v1 fight in say a 75 ton IS heavy?

Thats ok to you? Because that what you will get, there will be no Solo queue, no Group play just Faction play and ti will be 100 IS mechs vs 35 or so clan mechs.


Sounds like a great time for the IS guys getting shot to hell while the clanners get glory and cbills. Thats a bad game and if you cant see that the you need more help then we can offer here in the forums.

[Moldur]

The only way to stop people people from making builds that have good synergy to alpha with is to go into everyone's home and hit them on the head with a hammer until they are just impaired enough.

In other words, you can't stop people from taking the logical course of action, which is to make alpha builds.

Option 2 is put in a system that so severely limits what you can effectively make to the point that the game might as well go into the trash bin.



Besides that, I see plenty of non alpha builds. The UAC-10 Kodiak that everyone is complaining about, as well as pretty much any other ballistic mech is a DoT (damage over time) build.

What? The Raven-4x is a cheater piece of garbage because people are alphaing with all 2 of their large lasers? The TDR-9S is too OP with its 3 large pulse lasers? Or are you talking specifically about mechs pushing 50-70 damage with big heat alphas?


This whole thing is just about not getting melted instantly, isn't it? I don't get melted instantly unless I do some stupid **** where I think my mech has hero armor, which it doesn't. Wrap your head around it.


Thinking Man's shooter? Give me a break. Tell me. Give us a detailed definition of what a 'thinking man's shooter' ought to be. As far as I can tell, people have been throwing that term left and right whenever MWO isn't the way they want it.

[MrJeffers]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 June 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

Id say the normal burst should be in the 15-20 point range, with anything higher being a little rough on the heat.
<snip>

So Ghost heat with a damage cap of 20 and an across the board increase in weapon cool downs? Pretty sure the weapon cool down increase is a non-starter, it's been done in the past and the vast majority of the players don't want that. The first part is exactly what GH 2.0 was supposed to be, but PGI FUBAR'ed the implementation to cause too much back-end server workload.

And a 40 point heat cap is extreme, even table top BT doesn't have that. Since in BT you calculate heat *after* you dissipate it actaully works a lot like the real time system in MWO. The BT AWS-8Q that fires it's 3 PPCs doesn't perform 4 shutdown rolls and suffer the movement an aim penatlies because it generated 30 heat. Because it sinks 28 of that before you look at the scale, so even though it was at 30 for 10 seconds, it ends at 2. Its heat cap is 58 because it can sink 28 points of heat before it counts on the BT 30 point scale.

Edited by MrJeffers, 03 June 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[9thDeathscream]

Unless you are fighting an enemy alone, the mech with the high alpha always gets the kill.

[wanderer]

Quote

In TT, alpha strike was a desperate move, it should be here as well.

Hi there. TT player since just after it was called Battledroids, ex-regional champion back in the MechForce days.

The alpha strike as a desperation move only started to become a false statement around the point double heat sinks went in, as many designs literally could fire every gun on the 'Mech and not overheat. Even 3025-era designs were often designed to dance on the edge of critical overheat (14 or 19) with a full salvo, letting you alpha and then cool down, and "cold" build variants were very popular in tournament play for obvious reasons,especially post-3050.

What MWO lacks is the penalties for any overheat under 100%. This is the issue- heat doesn't slow a 'Mech, damage (this being MWO, auto ammo explosions when we carry far more than TT would be insane) to ammo, or any of the other potential inefficiencies that plague a hot 'Mech. Even the 100%+ penalty of damage is done in a way that favors larger 'Mechs since it's X amount of CT damage for an allowed shutdown and random structure damage for an override overheat...instead of randomly damaging equipment as the advanced (equivalent of 100%+ overheat) heat scale in TT does.

Further, convergence is all-the-time perfect without even needing sensor lock, even at ranges exceeding effective. At the least it'd be nice if non-locked targets had somewhat WORSE convergence than pixel-perfect, even (and especially) if it was a default for snapshooting and iron-sights fire.

That I can turn a corner and someone 360 noscopenosensor YOLOblasts me for 50+ precision damage from long range makes me cringe.

[Weeny Machine]

dervishx5, on 03 June 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

Slippery slope arguments. You must be a Trump/Clinton supporter.

1. Not at all: if I want to play CoD, I play CoD. If want to play Battletech, I do have a problem with Alpha Warrior: Peek-a-Boo Edition

2. As for your political ad hominem... I am not from this country

[Cabbage Merchant]

Ace Selin, on 03 June 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Beta &amp; Charlie strikes worry me more to be honest. Alpha strikes i can deal with usually.

Don't forget those Delta Strikes, those are the worst.

[Vxheous]

Fut, on 03 June 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

Think this is where the beef comes from.
People were sold this game initially on the grounds that it wasn't going to be a twitch-reflex shooter. The fact that it's leaning more that way these days doesn't mean that's where it was meant to be or where it should be.

For the last time (I know it won't be) this game is NOT a twitch shooter, nor does it resemble one. Twitvh shooting in this ends up getting your damage sprayed all over the place (note those guys running high sensivity on mouse that can't hit a thing).

If you want to be reminded of what a twitch shooter really is, go play battlefield or CoD or CS:GO for 5 mins and get killed a bunch of times without even seeing who/what shot you.

Why YOU are dying so fast in MWO has nothing to do with twitch shooting, and everything to do with force mulipliers of focused fire from multiple sources. Stop thinking that because you ate on a mech that you can just tank fire from a firing line without penalty.

Go play some 1vs1s or 2vs2s in a private lobby and you'll see that TTK is actually in a good place. If you get shot by 10 mechs at that same time, you are supposed to die. The truth is many people in this game are either : A: simply aren't very good, regardless of what mechanics you put in the game, or B: Computer not good enough to allow adequate gaming.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 03 June 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MrJeffers, on 03 June 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

So Ghost heat with a damage cap of 20 and an across the board increase in weapon cool downs? Pretty sure the weapon cool down increase is a non-starter, it's been done in the past and the vast majority of the players don't want that. The first part is exactly what GH 2.0 was supposed to be, but PGI FUBAR'ed the implementation to cause too much back-end server workload.

And a 40 point heat cap is extreme, even table top BT doesn't have that. Since in BT you calculate heat *after* you dissipate it actaully works a lot like the real time system in MWO. The BT AWS-8Q that fires it's 3 PPCs doesn't perform 4 shutdown rolls and suffer the movement an aim penatlies because it generated 30 heat. Because it sinks 28 of that before you look at the scale, so even though it was at 30 for 10 seconds, it ends at 2. Its heat cap is 58 because it can sink 28 points of heat before it counts on the BT 30 point scale.

Im not lookin at how it's done in TT. Im lookin at how it would be done here. 40 heat would make it physically impossible to fire a 40-60 point alpha. It would make it where we literally couldnt fire huge alphas, without blowing our selves up at least. All these other systems we have in place dont do **** to stop anything. PLayers will milk the system for all it's worth, the only way to get certain outcomes is to pretty much force it on players, make the system to where the game is pretty much forced to play a certain way.

Sure, with a 40 point heat scale the new meta would simply be Autocannon dakka, but even then, we could put in systems that would make ballistics a colder, but more difficult to use efficiently weapon, requiring lead and superior aiming skills, while lasers are the easy to use, but hard to manage weapons. I would ofc leave PPCs as a "projectile", but it would have vastly superior speed to any ballistics. AC2 I would put at 1150, while the PPC would be at like 1350, ERPPC: 1400, CERPPC, 1380 but with 13 dmg, vs IS ERPPC 10. Heat, I would probably put from 15 to 12 on ISERPPC and leave the CLan one at 15.

Players might not want longer Cooldowns and recharge for thier weapons, doesnt mean it wouldnt make the game better. I know, people just love to dakka everything, if it was all up to the players, we would literally have 0 heat, unlimited ammo, 1t Gauss rifles, 0.5t PPCs and armor, well, idk.....it wouldnt even matter. Play MW4 online, every server was pretty much exactly that, 0 heat, unlimited ammo, poptarting everywhere....it was quite possibly the most boring gameplay ive ever seen.