146 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 03 June 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

For the last time (I know it won't be) this game is NOT a twitch shooter, nor does it resemble one. Twitvh shooting in this ends up getting your damage sprayed all over the place (note those guys running high sensivity on mouse that can't hit a thing).

If you want to be reminded of what a twitch shooter really is, go play battlefield or CoD or CS:GO for 5 mins and get killed a bunch of times without even seeing who/what shot you.

Why YOU are dying so fast in MWO has nothing to do with twitch shooting, and everything to do with force mulipliers of focused fire from multiple sources. Stop thinking that because you ate on a mech that you can just tank fire from a firing line without penalty.

Go play some 1vs1s or 2vs2s in a private lobby and you'll see that TTK is actually in a good place. If you get shot by 10 mechs at that same time, you are supposed to die.

Yeah, except 1v1 or 2v2 is completely irrelevant, since it does not represent actual gameplay. Yeah, if you get shot by 10 mechs your supposd to die, but you can still make it where you dont die instantly. 15-20 point alphas from every mech, yeah, it would **** you up badly, you would likely still die, or be so battered you wouldnt be living anyway. Right now we have mechs like the Archer that can 2 shot a Warhawk from full to pretty much dead. Lights that can 2 shot your rear off, thats what? like 60+ points? We have mechs that have 15-20t more armor quirked on JUST to try and overcome the insane alphas.

Everyone wants to kill stuff quickly, but at the same time, they dont wanna die fast. Make up your minds, mine is. Id rather have less damage, longer TTK and matches that are more fun, drawn out and so on, over 5 minute shooting galleries that end before you even get to fire a shot....

[Vxheous]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 June 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Yeah, except 1v1 or 2v2 is completely irrelevant, since it does not represent actual gameplay. Yeah, if you get shot by 10 mechs your supposd to die, but you can still make it where you dont die instantly. 15-20 point alphas from every mech, yeah, it would **** you up badly, you would likely still die, or be so battered you wouldnt be living anyway. Right now we have mechs like the Archer that can 2 shot a Warhawk from full to pretty much dead. Lights that can 2 shot your rear off, thats what? like 60+ points? We have mechs that have 15-20t more armor quirked on JUST to try and overcome the insane alphas.

Everyone wants to kill stuff quickly, but at the same time, they dont wanna die fast. Make up your minds, mine is. Id rather have less damage, longer TTK and matches that are more fun, drawn out and so on, over 5 minute shooting galleries that end before you even get to fire a shot....

If you are getting two shot by an archer in a Warhawk, you are doing something wrong, either positionally, or build wise. There is no way an Archer can two shot a Warhawk solo without the Warhawk being able to return ~same damage in that timespan. "Oh, but Vxheous, he brought a crazy SRM build on his Archer, and I only have LPLs" Why didn't you shoot him at range, and how did you let an Archer get in range of you. "But Vxheous, I was busy fighting his team and he snuck up on me" Why did your team not spot him prior to him actually getting into range of you.

Most problems end up back at failure of teamplay/pilot and less having to do with TTK.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 03 June 2016 - 11:32 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Group-Fire is an inherent part of MechWarrior and should be balancable by the heat, weight, and space of the weapons. Most mechs carry so many weapons they would never fire half of them without group-fire. Alpha-Strike is when you fire all your weapons at once which only works effectively vs stationary mechs or if all the weapons are identical. Heat and Ghost Heat are there to balance this as well.

Don't ever expect MechWarrior to work without group-fire though. It is cooked into Mech balance from the first PnP game through MWO.

[Metus regem]

Ace Selin, on 03 June 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Beta & Charlie strikes worry me more to be honest. Alpha strikes i can deal with usually.

If Beta and Charlie worry you, then Gamma must leave you curled up in a ball whimpering a dark corner like a small frightened child...

[Cy Mitchell]

I do not care if people Alpha all day as long as their is a negative consequence to doing so. Why should that be? Because this game is based on BT and there were/are negative consequences to exceeding heat thresholds which is an important limiting factor in both this game and that game. It is part of the game. Period.

Ghost heat is fine (well, relatively) but it does not go far enough. There needs to be added progressive negative effects for abusing the maximum heat threshold of a Mech. Heat has an effect on mechanics , electronics and the pilot. Therefore, high heat should slow the Mech, reduce its agility (torso twist and turning), degrade its sensors and, if really abused, permanently damage weapon systems and mechanical systems.

In addition, if you are firing multiple weapons of the same kind (boating) then there needs to be a rechage mechanic and a reload mechanic added to the game. Mechs have a system to both recharge enough power to fire energy weapons and internally ammo systems to reload ballistics and missiles. It stands to reason if they have to reload or recharge 4-6 weapons as opposed to 2 weapons of the same type that it will take longer to build up adequate energy or transfer all the need ammo to the weapons before they can be fired again. Therefore, a mechanic should be added that reduces the rate of fire (or increases cooldown if you were) when multiple weapons of the same type are fired simultaneously. because these reload or recharge systems are overloaded beyond there capacity. There is support for it in science. There is support for it in BT Lore. There is support for it in RL. And there is a need for it in the game to improve the quality of game play and add more "thinking man" to the shooter.

[Alan Davion]

MrJeffers, on 03 June 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

And a 40 point heat cap is extreme, even table top BT doesn't have that. Since in BT you calculate heat *after* you dissipate it actaully works a lot like the real time system in MWO. The BT AWS-8Q that fires it's 3 PPCs doesn't perform 4 shutdown rolls and suffer the movement an aim penatlies because it generated 30 heat. Because it sinks 28 of that before you look at the scale, so even though it was at 30 for 10 seconds, it ends at 2. Its heat cap is 58 because it can sink 28 points of heat before it counts on the BT 30 point scale.

You're right, TT BT doesn't have that rather generous 40 point heat cap. It has an even more punishing 30 point heat cap.



MWO currently has a flipping 60 point heat cap. Many people, myself included, have been saying the heat cap needs to be reduced. I prefer the 30 point TT cap, but even a 40 point cap would go a long way towards stomping those low-skill pinpoint alpha strikes.

People will just gravitate towards ACs you say? There aren't a whole lot of mechs I know of that have more than about 2 ballistic hard points, and those that do have more, you can't mount more than about 2 AC10s, 2 AC5s or 3-4 AC2s, depending on the mechs base tonnage before you're having to sacrifice your engine size and your armor to mount more ammo to feed those weapons.

The simple fact of the matter is all the weapons in the game have had their values skewed somehow... Lasers are the biggest offenders here because of how easy it is to boat them and synergize them.

Quite frankly all the weapon values, including the heat values need to be reverted back to their TT values and balance needs to start over from square one at this point because of how muddied the waters have gotten in terms of weapon balance and overall game balance.

[Felicitatem Parco]

When I bring 3 AC/5 cannons, I will alpha them every time.

Call me a crappy player. Call me a sucker for crutches. I will alpha my Autocannons whether you like it or not. Heat scale will not stop me from alpha'ing.

Now, maybe you all might want to focus this conversation not on merely Alphas, but rather High Heat Alphas. This is supposed to be a Heat-based discussion, right? Then don't just say "Alphas"

I will also Alpha my AC/2s...

[Y E O N N E]

Luca M Pryde, on 03 June 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

It isn't really battletech as we know it.

BattleTech as you know it is bad and wrong.

[Koniving]

Paigan, on 03 June 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how are alpha strikes a problem at all?

Isn't that the most natural thing to do? Optimize your gear so that you can have maximum effect in minimum time to try your best and neutralize the target?
If you disagree, you should not play any game involving combat. Maybe rather candy crush or so.

The awesome back-and-forth dogfights you might have in mind are a romantic perversion of math and tactics.
Reality (even that of a game) is: be EFFICIENT. Not dramatic.

What would you rather have? 1 AC10, 1 med laser, 1 PPC, 1 SRM because it LOOKS cool and versatile?
It's garbage, that's what it is. Mathematically, tactically, everythingically.

Also consider:
Even in TT alpha strikes happen all the time.
You can't fire (don't see the target or are not in a good position) - you don't fire.
You can fire - you hit it with EVERYTHING you got and pray that you neutralize him before he does you.


So:
Combat games or Candy Crush? The choice is yours.

Some things to consider:

• Firing all weapons in tabletop is to fire all weapons within a 10 second span of time, exactly one user per weapon.
  
  • That is within 10 seconds... an AC/20 does 20 damage, a medium laser does 5 damage, etc.
    
  • In MWO... within 10 seconds an AC/20 without ANY quirks does 60 damage, a medium laser does 15.
    
  • Even then, despite tabletops horrific Front Loaded Pinpoint Damage (Per Weapon), it is scattered all over the enemy mech. Sure the 2-to-100 shot AC/20 is given horrific front loaded pinpoint damage to one section of the mech and the medium laser (averaging 3 shots in lore to get a total of 5 damage) manages exactly one component, but such is the summarized nature of Battletech tabletop.
• In Battletech itself, the "Alpha Strike" is to fire all weapons at exactly the same time.
  
  • This is usually depicted as being done with minimal convergence, as in torso weapons without the ability to pivot (i.e. non-turreted) will fire directly ahead and hit what body parts are directly ahead (i.e. if an Atlas alpha striked at a Kodiak dead in front of it, the Autocannon from the right torso would probably hit the left torso of the Kodiak. The SRMs from the left torso would likely hit ~Mostly~ the right torso of the Kodiak. The arms will most likely hit the center torso depending on range and whether or not aiming for the center torso would put the arms in front of the torso weapons -- in which case the arms would spread wide and probably hit the Kodiak's arms or STs to avoid hitting itself with the missiles or the autocannon.
    
  • This is virtually always depicted as a desperate act by someone that is ABOUT TO DIE, TERRIFIED, or IN A DEMENTED MENTAL STATE while laughing maniacally. There are also two other examples, including one where the pilot lost consciousness and the Alpha Strike is a programmed reaction... as well as the few examples where there were only 2 weapons to begin with and they are linked.

It is a natural thing to do in MWO because it is possible and we have incredibly high heat thresholds and a blatant lack of discomfort from using high heat weaponry.
Mechwarriors are usually nearly naked, wearing refridgeration/cooling vests and even then suffer horrifically from sweating. Part of the accuracy penalty from just 8 units of heat accrued within 10 seconds is from sweat pouring into the eyes of the pilot. That's right: 8 units of heat, sweat in eyes, blurry vision.

Remember, that's 8 units of heat after cooling meaning you did get above that temperature and cooled down to that within the 10 seconds.

Above 14 units meant the potential for shutdown; this dice roll was used to calculate the chances of you overheating from firing too much and reaching 100% within the 10 seconds. For example a Warhawk Primary Configuration. This example is being used because PPCs are canonically single shot weapons with devastating front loaded damage (sure an AC/20 might be 2 to 100 shots to do 20 damage, but a PPC has always been one shot to do full damage, making it one of the most devastating weapons in Battletech Lore before the crazy stuff after 3060).

Source material:
Warhawk Primary Configuration; firing only ER PPCs. 20 DHS. (-4 heat per second).

Spaced shots across 3 seconds each.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. (WARNING 50% threshold.) 15 heat.
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 11.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 7.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold).
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 14.4 heat. (48% Threshold).
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 10.5 heat. (35% Threshold.)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 21.6 heat. (72% threshold)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 17.7 heat. (59% threshold)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 13.8 heat. (46% threshold -- I'm NOT rounding these numbers; the genius of Battletech at work here).
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just an extra second because it's so dangerously close. 9.9 heat. (33% threshold.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Pretty impossible for him to shut down like this. Some notes though, there's a 1/3rd chance at this level of heat that he may have an ammunition explosion depending on how long he stayed above a certain level of heat; he didn't stay up there long so it's slim.
Note: After/during this time, the overal movement capability of the mech after this would be cut by 120 meters due to stiffening joints from Heat Expansion! (Made up for during the next movement phase).
Note: Accuracy due to heat affecting the pilot would be cut by 3; since the average pilot has a gunnery of 5, this means the distractions of sweat in the eyes and the discomfort of being inside the mech would cut his accuracy by 3/5ths or 60% over the next 10 seconds while the Pilot himself recovers from the rise in temperature!

Erratic spacing between each shot. Again assume the BT standard of one use per 10 seconds.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. (WARNING 50% threshold.) 15 heat.
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 11.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. ER PPC fired! +15 heat. 22.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold).
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 1 ER PPC fired! + 15 heat. 29.4 heat. (98% Threshold). (Weapons LOCKOUT!)
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 25.5 heat. (85% Threshold.) (Weapons LOCKOUT! Pilot is overriding!)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. (Weapons LOCKOUT; pilot has overridden.) 21.6 heat. (72% threshold)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 32.7 heat. (109% threshold) (Threshold has been breached! Threshold has been breached! Shutdown in 3...)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 28.8 heat. (96% threshold -- Again I note that I'm NOT rounding these percentages; the genius of Battletech is at work here). (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in... Shutdown has been avoided. Warning: Heat.)
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just a second because it's so dangerously close. 24.9 heat. (83% threshold.) (Warning: Heat.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Oooo, so close to shutting down! Had to override the Battletech weapons lockout (In BT there IS No SHUTDOWN OVERRIDE! It is a weapons lockout override.) Staying slightly over 30 for 3 seconds would've been really bad, since starting back up is not possible until reaching 14 units of heat (46.67% threshold). That was a really close roll. (To mention it for this time, I did melt a heatsink. No ammo explosion though. Was really pushing it but didn't stay above 64% Threshold for long enough at a time.)

2 at a time.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 2 ER PPC. +30 heat. (WARNING 100% threshold.) 30 heat. (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold reached: Shutdown in 3...)
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 26.1 heat. (WARNING: Heat!) (Shutdown avoided.) (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 3..)
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 22.2 heat. (Warning: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 2...) (Weapons LOCKOUT; pilot is ignoring lockout; no attempt to override.)
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold). (Ammunition is cooling.) (Weapons have unlocked.)
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 14.4 heat.
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 2 ER PPCs fired! +30 heat! 40.5 heat. (WARNING 135% Threshold!) (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in 3 seconds...) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 2...)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 36.6 heat. (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in 2 seconds.) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp!! Cookoff in 1...)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 32.7 heat. (109% threshold) (Threshold has been breached! Threshold has been breached! Shutdown in 1 second...) (AMMO EXPLODES! Left Arm destroyed. Remaining damage prevented by CASE!!)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 28.8 heat. (96% threshold -- Again I note that I'm NOT rounding these percentages; the genius of Battletech is at work here). (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in... Shutdown has been avoided. Warning: Heat.)
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just a second because it's so dangerously close. 24.9 heat. (83% threshold.) (Warning: Heat.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Oooo, Damn near! Had to override the Battletech weapons lockout. Staying 30 or above for 3 seconds would've been really bad, since starting back up is not possible until reaching 14 units of heat (46.67% threshold). That was super risky move! (Fresh mech. This time it was reported that I had a loss of overall coolant. Also had an ammo explosion. Lost an arm.) We definitely shouldn't forget the movement penalties, accuracy penalties from the distractions of heat (and the explosion and personal injury!)

Alpha strike!

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds; note due to turn-based limitation there isn't anything to say the mech stopped right away).
0 seconds. Fires 2 ER PPC. 60 heat. WARNING! At 200% of Mech Heat Tolerance! EMERGENCY SHUTDOWN! Cut Power! All joints locked. Mech may fall over! EXTREMELY LIKELY AMMO EXPLOSION! (If using all rules, the heatsink taxation rule would use a dice roll to determine and punish for any of the following scenarios:

Spoiler

Evaporated Coolant Fluid.
Coolant Leak.
Heatsink Failure [any number of issues from the pump to pretty much anything short of melting].
Heatsink Melting.
In this specific case, I lost 2 heatsinks due to melting at the end of this timeslice.

1 second. -4 heat. 56.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. 52.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. 48.3 heat.
4 seconds. -4 heat. 44.4 heat.
5 seconds. -4 heat. 40.5 heat.
6 seconds. -4 heat. 36.6 heat.
7 seconds. -4 heat. 32.7 heat.
8 seconds. -4 heat. 28.8 heat.
9 seconds. -4 heat. 24.9 heat.
10 seconds. -4 heat. 21 heat.

Note that due to limitations of a turn-based game, the shot must be fired at '0' seconds to accurately gauge heat in an MWO-style. The heat was actually gauged using thermal laws, in which a large amount of heat was transferred at first significantly deteriorating (temporarily) the cooling per second (say of 60 heat, 20 of it was absorbed within 2 seconds and the rest absorbed over the remaining value of time gradually; overworking the heatsinks and in this case frying almost 3. Of course the heatsinks wouldn't be any good until the 10 seconds are up once they are completely used for all 40 points of heat as they need time to dissipate the heat as well as absorb it, say about 5 seconds both ways to make it a nice even number. Also had an ammo explosion instantly.)

There's nothing within the board game to attribute a cutoff of movement during the heat phase, though in real time the heat from 'walking' and the overall distance travelled would have both been cut short of the intended movement.

Using this method applied to MWO, the countdown to shutdown would be cut down to 2 around 140% heat and skipped entirely at 150% heat for an instant shutdown. (so 145% would only get a 1 second warning). Weapon lockout is canonically described at approximately 50% heat, however 80% heat seems like a better place for it.

This is literally combining the Tech Manual lore with Basic Battletech, Strat Ops and Tact Ops lore and rules into a real time breakdown.

To note: My choice is Combat Simulation; but MWO IS Candy Crush Saga.

[Malorish]

Paigan, on 03 June 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how are alpha strikes a problem at all?

Isn't that the most natural thing to do? Optimize your gear so that you can have maximum effect in minimum time to try your best and neutralize the target?
If you disagree, you should not play any game involving combat. Maybe rather candy crush or so.

The awesome back-and-forth dogfights you might have in mind are a romantic perversion of math and tactics.
Reality (even that of a game) is: be EFFICIENT. Not dramatic.

What would you rather have? 1 AC10, 1 med laser, 1 PPC, 1 SRM because it LOOKS cool and versatile?
It's garbage, that's what it is. Mathematically, tactically, everythingically.

Also consider:
Even in TT alpha strikes happen all the time.
You can't fire (don't see the target or are not in a good position) - you don't fire.
You can fire - you hit it with EVERYTHING you got and pray that you neutralize him before he does you.


So:
Combat games or Candy Crush? The choice is yours.

The issue is that the alphas deliver so much damage in relation to the overall health (armor + structure) of the mech that it makes that the case.

If we nerfed damage to 50% of current across the board you'd increase mech survivability to the point that different tactics would become not only viable, but perhaps more optimal than Alpha Poking.

For instance, if you weren't worried about being obliterated in a heartbeat at 700 meters, you might actually see mechs start to charge on each other rather than just alpha poking at range. That might lead to a need to have more heat efficient weapons like small lasers, etc an certainly make Heavy and Assault brawlers much more capable. People might need a mix of weapons to participate effecctively - long, medium, and short range - instead of just going "all in" with their builds around one range.

You know . . . like Battletech the game . . .

[wanderer]

Quote

40 heat would make it physically impossible to fire a 40-60 point alpha.

Twin Gauss are already 30 damage, add in two PPCs and you're at 50 damage. Macro funtime FTW.

Alphas will not be stopped, the only solution is decentralizing the damage so you're not centerpunching targets with every gun the second you get a crosshair over it.

Edited by wanderer, 03 June 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

Some things to consider:

• Firing all weapons in tabletop is to fire all weapons within a 10 second span of time, exactly one user per weapon.
  
  • That is within 10 seconds... an AC/20 does 20 damage, a medium laser does 5 damage, etc.
    
  • In MWO... within 10 seconds an AC/20 without ANY quirks does 60 damage, a medium laser does 15.
    
  • Even then, despite tabletops horrific Front Loaded Pinpoint Damage (Per Weapon), it is scattered all over the enemy mech. Sure the 2-to-100 shot AC/20 is given horrific front loaded pinpoint damage to one section of the mech and the medium laser (averaging 3 shots in lore to get a total of 5 damage) manages exactly one component, but such is the summarized nature of Battletech tabletop.
• In Battletech itself, the "Alpha Strike" is to fire all weapons at exactly the same time.
  
  • This is usually depicted as being done with minimal convergence, as in torso weapons without the ability to pivot (i.e. non-turreted) will fire directly ahead and hit what body parts are directly ahead (i.e. if an Atlas alpha striked at a Kodiak dead in front of it, the Autocannon from the right torso would probably hit the left torso of the Kodiak. The SRMs from the left torso would likely hit ~Mostly~ the right torso of the Kodiak. The arms will most likely hit the center torso depending on range and whether or not aiming for the center torso would put the arms in front of the torso weapons -- in which case the arms would spread wide and probably hit the Kodiak's arms or STs to avoid hitting itself with the missiles or the autocannon.
    
  • This is virtually always depicted as a desperate act by someone that is ABOUT TO DIE, TERRIFIED, or IN A DEMENTED MENTAL STATE while laughing maniacally. There are also two other examples, including one where the pilot lost consciousness and the Alpha Strike is a programmed reaction... as well as the few examples where there were only 2 weapons to begin with and they are linked.

It is a natural thing to do in MWO because it is possible and we have incredibly high heat thresholds and a blatant lack of discomfort from using high heat weaponry.

Mechwarriors are usually nearly naked, wearing refridgeration/cooling vests and even then suffer horrifically from sweating. Part of the accuracy penalty from just 8 units of heat accrued within 10 seconds is from sweat pouring into the eyes of the pilot. That's right: 8 units of heat, sweat in eyes, blurry vision.

Remember, that's 8 units of heat after cooling meaning you did get above that temperature and cooled down to that within the 10 seconds.

Above 14 units meant the potential for shutdown; this dice roll was used to calculate the chances of you overheating from firing too much and reaching 100% within the 10 seconds. For example a Warhawk Primary Configuration. This example is being used because PPCs are canonically single shot weapons with devastating front loaded damage (sure an AC/20 might be 2 to 100 shots to do 20 damage, but a PPC has always been one shot to do full damage, making it one of the most devastating weapons in Battletech Lore before the crazy stuff after 3060).

Source material:
Warhawk Primary Configuration; firing only ER PPCs. 20 DHS. (-4 heat per second).

Spaced shots across 3 seconds each.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. (WARNING 50% threshold.) 15 heat.
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 11.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 7.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold).
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 14.4 heat. (48% Threshold).
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 10.5 heat. (35% Threshold.)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 21.6 heat. (72% threshold)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 17.7 heat. (59% threshold)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 13.8 heat. (46% threshold -- I'm NOT rounding these numbers; the genius of Battletech at work here).
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just an extra second because it's so dangerously close. 9.9 heat. (33% threshold.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Pretty impossible for him to shut down like this. Some notes though, there's a 1/3rd chance at this level of heat that he may have an ammunition explosion depending on how long he stayed above a certain level of heat; he didn't stay up there long so it's slim.
Note: After/during this time, the overal movement capability of the mech after this would be cut by 120 meters due to stiffening joints from Heat Expansion! (Made up for during the next movement phase).
Note: Accuracy due to heat affecting the pilot would be cut by 3; since the average pilot has a gunnery of 5, this means the distractions of sweat in the eyes and the discomfort of being inside the mech would cut his accuracy by 3/5ths or 60% over the next 10 seconds while the Pilot himself recovers from the rise in temperature!

Erratic spacing between each shot. Again assume the BT standard of one use per 10 seconds.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. (WARNING 50% threshold.) 15 heat.
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 11.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. ER PPC fired! +15 heat. 22.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold).
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 1 ER PPC fired! + 15 heat. 29.4 heat. (98% Threshold). (Weapons LOCKOUT!)
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 25.5 heat. (85% Threshold.) (Weapons LOCKOUT! Pilot is overriding!)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. (Weapons LOCKOUT; pilot has overridden.) 21.6 heat. (72% threshold)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 32.7 heat. (109% threshold) (Threshold has been breached! Threshold has been breached! Shutdown in 3...)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 28.8 heat. (96% threshold -- Again I note that I'm NOT rounding these percentages; the genius of Battletech is at work here). (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in... Shutdown has been avoided. Warning: Heat.)
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just a second because it's so dangerously close. 24.9 heat. (83% threshold.) (Warning: Heat.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Oooo, so close to shutting down! Had to override the Battletech weapons lockout (In BT there IS No SHUTDOWN OVERRIDE! It is a weapons lockout override.) Staying slightly over 30 for 3 seconds would've been really bad, since starting back up is not possible until reaching 14 units of heat (46.67% threshold). That was a really close roll. (To mention it for this time, I did melt a heatsink. No ammo explosion though. Was really pushing it but didn't stay above 64% Threshold for long enough at a time.)

2 at a time.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 2 ER PPC. +30 heat. (WARNING 100% threshold.) 30 heat. (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold reached: Shutdown in 3...)
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 26.1 heat. (WARNING: Heat!) (Shutdown avoided.) (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 3..)
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 22.2 heat. (Warning: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 2...) (Weapons LOCKOUT; pilot is ignoring lockout; no attempt to override.)
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold). (Ammunition is cooling.) (Weapons have unlocked.)
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 14.4 heat.
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 2 ER PPCs fired! +30 heat! 40.5 heat. (WARNING 135% Threshold!) (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in 3 seconds...) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 2...)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 36.6 heat. (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in 2 seconds.) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp!! Cookoff in 1...)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 32.7 heat. (109% threshold) (Threshold has been breached! Threshold has been breached! Shutdown in 1 second...) (AMMO EXPLODES! Left Arm destroyed. Remaining damage prevented by CASE!!)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 28.8 heat. (96% threshold -- Again I note that I'm NOT rounding these percentages; the genius of Battletech is at work here). (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in... Shutdown has been avoided. Warning: Heat.)
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just a second because it's so dangerously close. 24.9 heat. (83% threshold.) (Warning: Heat.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Oooo, Damn near! Had to override the Battletech weapons lockout. Staying 30 or above for 3 seconds would've been really bad, since starting back up is not possible until reaching 14 units of heat (46.67% threshold). That was super risky move! (Fresh mech. This time it was reported that I had a loss of overall coolant. Also had an ammo explosion. Lost an arm.) We definitely shouldn't forget the movement penalties, accuracy penalties from the distractions of heat (and the explosion and personal injury!)

Alpha strike!

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds; note due to turn-based limitation there isn't anything to say the mech stopped right away).
0 seconds. Fires 2 ER PPC. 60 heat. WARNING! At 200% of Mech Heat Tolerance! EMERGENCY SHUTDOWN! Cut Power! All joints locked. Mech may fall over! EXTREMELY LIKELY AMMO EXPLOSION! (If using all rules, the heatsink taxation rule would use a dice roll to determine and punish for any of the following scenarios:

Spoiler

Evaporated Coolant Fluid.
Coolant Leak.
Heatsink Failure [any number of issues from the pump to pretty much anything short of melting].
Heatsink Melting.
In this specific case, I lost 2 heatsinks due to melting at the end of this timeslice.

1 second. -4 heat. 56.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. 52.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. 48.3 heat.
4 seconds. -4 heat. 44.4 heat.
5 seconds. -4 heat. 40.5 heat.
6 seconds. -4 heat. 36.6 heat.
7 seconds. -4 heat. 32.7 heat.
8 seconds. -4 heat. 28.8 heat.
9 seconds. -4 heat. 24.9 heat.
10 seconds. -4 heat. 21 heat.

Note that due to limitations of a turn-based game, the shot must be fired at '0' seconds to accurately gauge heat in an MWO-style. The heat was actually gauged using thermal laws, in which a large amount of heat was transferred at first significantly deteriorating (temporarily) the cooling per second (say of 60 heat, 20 of it was absorbed within 2 seconds and the rest absorbed over the remaining value of time gradually; overworking the heatsinks and in this case frying almost 3. Of course the heatsinks wouldn't be any good until the 10 seconds are up once they are completely used for all 40 points of heat as they need time to dissipate the heat as well as absorb it, say about 5 seconds both ways to make it a nice even number. Also had an ammo explosion instantly.)

There's nothing within the board game to attribute a cutoff of movement during the heat phase, though in real time the heat from 'walking' and the overall distance travelled would have both been cut short of the intended movement.

Using this method applied to MWO, the countdown to shutdown would be cut down to 2 around 140% heat and skipped entirely at 150% heat for an instant shutdown. (so 145% would only get a 1 second warning). Weapon lockout is canonically described at approximately 50% heat, however 80% heat seems like a better place for it.

This is literally combining the Tech Manual lore with Basic Battletech, Strat Ops and Tact Ops lore and rules into a real time breakdown.

To note: My choice is Combat Simulation; but MWO IS Candy Crush Saga.

Stuff!

I know you hear this a lot, but you sir are:

wanderer, on 03 June 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Twin Gauss are already 30 damage, add in two PPCs and you're at 50 damage. Macro funtime FTW.

Alphas will not be stopped, the only solution is decentralizing the damage so you're not centerpunching targets with every gun the second you get a crosshair over it.

Or you know, a mild cone of fire would work too... give us a target circle, and all your shots land in that circle....

[Mole]

So cool. We'll stop alpha strikes and replace it with how I play my 12 laser Nova. Boating lasers and then firing one weapon group and then the other. Nice fix.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 June 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

BattleTech as you know it is bad and wrong.

Amen

[Cy Mitchell]

Prosperity Park, on 03 June 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

When I bring 3 AC/5 cannons, I will alpha them every time.

Call me a crappy player. Call me a sucker for crutches. I will alpha my Autocannons whether you like it or not. Heat scale will not stop me from alpha'ing.

Now, maybe you all might want to focus this conversation not on merely Alphas, but rather High Heat Alphas. This is supposed to be a Heat-based discussion, right? Then don't just say "Alphas"

I will also Alpha my AC/2s...

My reload mechanic would slow your rate of fire and reduce the effectiveness of your Alpha. All types of Alphas need to be addressed whether it be Laser, PPC, Gauss, LRM, SRM, SSRM or squirt guns. Otherwise the meta just shifts from one type of Alpha to another.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 03 June 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Twin Gauss are already 30 damage, add in two PPCs and you're at 50 damage. Macro funtime FTW.

Well that's also because Gauss as a no heat gun is a bit broken, but lore nerds my lay a brick if it got significant heat as a balancing factor rather than charge and fragility.

[Cy Mitchell]

wanderer, on 03 June 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Twin Gauss are already 30 damage, add in two PPCs and you're at 50 damage. Macro funtime FTW.

Just make twin Gauss take 66% longer to charge up again. PPC fire rate reduced by 66% when dual fired. That forces you to either wait significantly longer between shots or fire 1 Gauss/1 PPC and then the other Gauss and PPC.

Recharge mechanic added to present Ghost heat and lowered threshold to make all Alpha a desparation or last resort move instead of the norm.

[MrJeffers]

Alan Davion, on 03 June 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

You're right, TT BT doesn't have that rather generous 40 point heat cap. It has an even more punishing 30 point heat cap.



MWO currently has a flipping 60 point heat cap. Many people, myself included, have been saying the heat cap needs to be reduced. I prefer the 30 point TT cap, but even a 40 point cap would go a long way towards stomping those low-skill pinpoint alpha strikes.

People will just gravitate towards ACs you say? There aren't a whole lot of mechs I know of that have more than about 2 ballistic hard points, and those that do have more, you can't mount more than about 2 AC10s, 2 AC5s or 3-4 AC2s, depending on the mechs base tonnage before you're having to sacrifice your engine size and your armor to mount more ammo to feed those weapons.

The simple fact of the matter is all the weapons in the game have had their values skewed somehow... Lasers are the biggest offenders here because of how easy it is to boat them and synergize them.

Quite frankly all the weapon values, including the heat values need to be reverted back to their TT values and balance needs to start over from square one at this point because of how muddied the waters have gotten in terms of weapon balance and overall game balance.

And you obviously didn't understand a thing I wrote, so I'll do it one more time, slowly.
Stock AWS-8Q - 28 SHS, 3 PPC and a SL.
It runs (2 heat)
It fires its 3 PPCs (30 Heat).
What's its heat at? 32.
What rolls does it have to make at 32 on the BT heat scale?
That would be 11 rolls, some to avoid shut down, some to avoid pilot damage, and some for ammo explosions (ignored on this mech).

So why doesn't the AWS-8Q melt down when it does this? Something it does in TT nearly every turn.

Because the TT heat scale is *after* dissipation, not in real time. So we get to subtract 28 heat from the mech before we look at the table. The heat cap in TT for the AWS-8Q is effectively 58 to account for it's dissipation after 10 seconds. It's net gain is 4 heat - no effects at all.

So what happens if you apply a 30 point cap to a real time game?
AWS-Q8 Runs, fires it's 3 PPCs, and then self destructs because of all the stacked penalties. It doesn't play out right in real time and slows the game down more than TT's 10 second turns. If that's what you are looking for wait for HBS's battletech game.

Edited by MrJeffers, 03 June 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[wanderer]

Simply slowing alphas just means more poking happens as smart players stick their best armor (a rock) between them and you while reloading.

The game doesn't change until you can't simply point, click, and have your megaguncombo blow a gaping hole in the pixel you choose. That's how good precision damage with no spread is.

What -should- happen is every weapon has a set, specific deviation from center of crosshair when fired based on hardpoint and weapon type, even given perfect convergence. This means you can aim and predictably know where a weapon goes when fired, but you won't be able to push button and all guns go the the same spot.

Edited by wanderer, 03 June 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[Moldur]

I'd like to present another angle:
MWO is a limited simulation so to speak. Everything is centered around a small, instanced match where YOU KNOW, roughly, where the enemy is coming from, that it is a 12v12, the layout of the map, etc.

All that we know of how the game mechanics work. All the game knowledge that we can apply is limited by how the game mechanics work in the only context we have, (the context I outlined above.)

Builds, such as high alpha builds, that are optimized for this specific type of fighting will thus dominate it. The game offers very few situations that highlight the deficiencies of these builds. Almost nothing else, situations wise, exists.


If the game offered more situations where there were other considerations besides "I really need to kill 12 people at 200 to 600 meter range that start on the other side of this map." Then builds other than high alphas that are designed to do just that would also have a place. Not that you can't use builds besides high alpha (quite the opposite really, the game being inundated with only alpha warriors is a delusion,) it's just that a lot of those neat quirky builds are, when it comes down to it, role playing builds where we like to pretend that our mech is built to have some sort of life outside of being put into 12v12 deathmatches.

Edited by Moldur, 03 June 2016 - 01:53 PM.