146 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

wanderer, on 03 June 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Simply slowing alphas just means more poking happens as smart players stick their best armor (a rock) between them and you while reloading.

The game doesn't change until you can't simply point, click, and have your megaguncombo blow a gaping hole in the pixel you choose. That's how good precision damage with no spread is.

What -should- happen is every weapon has a set, specific deviation from center of crosshair when fired based on hardpoint and weapon type, even given perfect convergence. This means you can aim and predictably know where a weapon goes when fired, but you won't be able to push button and all guns go the the same spot.

I would be Okay with that too. It is just another means to an end of reigning in the obscene amount of one button damage that is presently the meta in the game.

Weapons could be set to converge only at their optimal range and be dispersed both before and after that range.

Or torso mounted weapons could be set to fire only straight ahead with arm mounted weapons with actuators able to converge on the target. While that would seem to give any Mech with arm mounted weapons a huge advantage, arms get blown off relatively easy.

Or you could do a combination of the two with arms able to focus on the target and torso weapons only able to converge at optimum range.

I still think there needs to be a progressive penalty for abusing heat levels though which would make managing heat more important to maintain the optimal effeceincy of the Mech

[Spleenslitta]

Paigan, on 03 June 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

What would you rather have? 1 AC10, 1 med laser, 1 PPC, 1 SRM because it LOOKS cool and versatile?
It's garbage, that's what it is. Mathematically, tactically, everythingically.

Sounds like fun build. Switch the AC10 with 2xSPL's and JJ's and it's somewhat similar to my Vindicator 1AA which is my best medium mech.

I use 4MG's, 1xERSL, 1xERML, 1xERPPC,JJ's,ECM on my Kit Fox to great effect.
I can strike reasonably hard at any range and because of that i can take advantage of all opportunities i get.
Sure a Firestarter with only SPL's will have a big advantage at close range but if it is midmatch the advantage he has is minimal.
Most importantly at long to medium range he is toothless while i can adapt well to any situation.

[Koniving]

Alan Davion, on 03 June 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

You're right, TT BT doesn't have that rather generous 40 point heat cap. It has an even more punishing 30 point heat cap.



MWO currently has a flipping 60 point heat cap. Many people, myself included, have been saying the heat cap needs to be reduced. I prefer the 30 point TT cap, but even a 40 point cap would go a long way towards stomping those low-skill pinpoint alpha strikes.

Mwo goes well beyond 60.
Mwo has a rising heatcap, with the highest possible at one point having been (with one er ppc and a lot of heatsinks) being 130+ (the exact number escapes me, highest possible for I.S.was 120+)

Fully agree with you though.

[Gas Guzzler]

Fut, on 03 June 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

...and all this time I was thinking that Mechwarrior was a Battletech game. Wonder what gave me that silly notion.

Alpha strikes have always been a big part of MECHWARRIOR. You people really need to get over it. Just because it doesn't fit your perfect image of BattleTech, where chain firing is the most elite of all skills, doesn't mean its "wrong". BattleTech is coming for you though.

BTW, my Kodiak with 2 Gauss Rifles, 2 ER PPCs and 2 Machine Guns NEVER alpha strikes.

So if everyone adds a MG or small laser that they never use, alpha strikes won't be a problem again. Yay!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 June 2016 - 02:59 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

What's funny is most people don't realize that if alpha strikes go away, TTK is barely going to change. Do you think dakka works with because of the alpha? Its damage over time, which won't change if alpha strikes all of a sudden go away.

[Dee Eight]

If they simply used the reducing speed, increasing to-hit modifiers and ammo explosions with heat increasing that BT did... it'd end a lot of alpha striking. When your warhammer goes from 64kmh top speed drops to 16kmh....that'll cut it down. When your ammo packs start exploding...that'll cut it down. When the weapons keep missing...that'll cut it down.

[Mole]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

What's funny is most people don't realize that if alpha strikes go away, TTK is barely going to change. Do you think dakka works with because of the alpha? Its damage over time, which won't change if alpha strikes all of a sudden go away.

I'll drop someone faster pounding on them with a Clan UAC/20 than I will smacking them with a 48 point laser alpha and waiting for those lasers to cool down before I can do it again. Totally agree.

[Alan Davion]

MrJeffers, on 03 June 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

And you obviously didn't understand a thing I wrote, so I'll do it one more time, slowly.
Stock AWS-8Q - 28 SHS, 3 PPC and a SL.
It runs (2 heat)
It fires its 3 PPCs (30 Heat).
What's its heat at? 32.
What rolls does it have to make at 32 on the BT heat scale?
That would be 11 rolls, some to avoid shut down, some to avoid pilot damage, and some for ammo explosions (ignored on this mech).

So why doesn't the AWS-8Q melt down when it does this? Something it does in TT nearly every turn.

Because the TT heat scale is *after* dissipation, not in real time. So we get to subtract 28 heat from the mech before we look at the table. The heat cap in TT for the AWS-8Q is effectively 58 to account for it's dissipation after 10 seconds. It's net gain is 4 heat - no effects at all.

So what happens if you apply a 30 point cap to a real time game?
AWS-Q8 Runs, fires it's 3 PPCs, and then self destructs because of all the stacked penalties. It doesn't play out right in real time and slows the game down more than TT's 10 second turns. If that's what you are looking for wait for HBS's battletech game.

Don't get snippy with me because your original example wasn't clear and concise like this one is.

This is where MWO falls on its face, yes, because they neglected a very important part of one my favorite mech games. MW2/Mercs.

Those two games did the heat system way better than MWO has. How? By having the normal heat system, which was generally front and center right below the targeting reticule, represented by the circular heat scale which, depending on the weapons you fired, would grow clockwise until you reached the danger zone and your BB warned you about an impending engine shutdown, or an ammo explosion if you had such weapons... Or if you actually reached the "end" of the heat scale, your mech actually blowing the f*** up.

And secondly, by having the "Delta Heat system" which functioned by determining how much heat was added to your overall heat as you fired weapons, as well as the function of your heat sinks themselves. Fire a weapon, and the delta heat bar would snap upward quickly due to the heat of firing the weapon, and would quickly dissipate, while your overall heat grew accordingly and you would have to dissipate that extra heat, which, unless you were firing all large lasers or something all the time, was very easily managed.

Because MWO stretches out the heat delivery of all its weapons over a period of a few seconds, instead of delivering all the heat all at once like MW2/Mercs did, which could be very punishing if you didn't equip your mech appropriately, that's just another reason why MWO is a pale shadow of pretty much every other Mechwarrior game there's ever been.

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Mwo goes well beyond 60.
Mwo has a rising heatcap, with the highest possible at one point having been (with one er ppc and a lot of heatsinks) being 130+ (the exact number escapes me, highest possible for I.S.was 120+)

Fully agree with you though.

Last I had heard it was generally around 60, before the increasing heat cap system came into play thanks to whichever heat sink allowed for the heat cap to be increased.

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Alpha strikes have always been a big part of MECHWARRIOR. You people really need to get over it. Just because it doesn't fit your perfect image of BattleTech, where chain firing is the most elite of all skills, doesn't mean its "wrong".

BTW, my Kodiak with 2 Gauss Rifles, 2 ER PPCs and 2 Machine Guns NEVER alpha strikes.

So if everyone adds a MG or small laser that they never use, alpha strikes won't be a problem again. Yay!

You and I seem to remember Mechwarrior games very differently.

Mechwarrior is supposed to be the RPG portion of the overall Battletech game system. And, I don't know about you, but I don't see any RPG elements here in MWO... Nor do I see them ever adding any.

Now if we were playing Battletech Online, you might have a point there. Hell, HBS' Battletech is pretty much incorporating most of the MW RPG elements into its game.

Edited by Alan Davion, 03 June 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 03 June 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

I know you hear this a lot, but you sir are:






Or you know, a mild cone of fire would work too... give us a target circle, and all your shots land in that circle....

Thank you. While a cone of fire is acceptable to me, Wanderer seemed to be getting closer to a point I have had, at least at first glance.

wanderer, on 03 June 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Twin Gauss are already 30 damage, add in two PPCs and you're at 50 damage. Macro funtime FTW.

Alphas will not be stopped, the only solution is decentralizing the damage so you're not centerpunching targets with every gun the second you get a crosshair over it.

Decentralizing damage... so spreading it. Or better, splitting it.

Splitting damage. In mwo an AC/20 does 60 damage.
In BT TT... An AC/20 does a maximum of 40 damage at an exceptionally high risk of jamming. Each given massive SUMMARY pinpoint front loaded damage.
In BT Lore, (real time) an AC/20 depending on the manufacturer and model could do around 20 damage (some less, some more) with only some capable of going up to 40 at incredible stress. At spreads averaging 12 to 16, with max of 100 and min of 2.

Let's use this lore! But first remove all quirks to start with. Revert to 1* structure and armor (16 points armor per ton instead of 32 for STD armor). Keep this in mind.

So if AC/2 or derivatives, up to 4 damage in 10 seconds.
If 5 and derivatives, up to 10 damage in 10 seconds.
If 10 and derivatives, up to 20 damage in 10 seconds.
If 20 and derivatives, up to 40 damage.
Note: STD autocannon, high risk of jam for double fire. Ultra, low risk of jam. Light, lower caliber means more shots to do damage. Rotary, lower caliber means more shots faster to get up to 6 times damage at jam risk.
Special notes: lbx cluster shot would be superior to most AC's, keep rate down for cluster shot or at 1.5 uses per ten seconds... cluster shot at reduced damages with rapid fire seems... a likely unwelcome option and a hit detection nightmare.
Note these and all following are excluding quirks.

Why would you use ACs after this change? DPS, nothing can out DPS these rapid fire anti-aircraft cannons. For added benefit, use 3* range to zero damage instead of 2*, for AC-2 use 4*. Ensure bullet drop is a tangible effect at extreme ranges. No single weapon can outdo the maximum damage an AC/10 or 20 can in 10 seconds. AC/5 and 2 really work well in groups. In general extremely low heat acs compliment hot weaponry.
But wait... why use small caliber (25-100mm) when there are high caliber (120mm-203mm)? Easy. A 203mm gun would only shoot 4 times maximum in 10 seconds to deal 40ish damage. Beach shot is either hit or miss, that's it. A smaller 100mm AC/20 does maybe 16 shots in the same 10 seconds, handy for those less accurate or for dealing with faster harder to hit targets.

Lasers, if the average medium laser fires about 3 times in 10 seconds for 5 damage...
This means if you have 8 medium lasers your ten second output is 40, not 120. Notice said nothing about modifying alpha strikes. In fact we can remove ghost heat altogether.
So while the damage is 1* per 10 seconds without much if any flex here... blending lasers together to fire at the same time allows for strong attacks. The 40 damage example is split in 3 just for demonstration 's sake... so 8 medium lasers deliver an "MWO" alpha of 13.33 damage with 3 of them in ten seconds.

Missiles, front loaded of course but reduce fire rate to once to one and a half times per 10 seconds. To quote Atlas description the hip pack contains a FarFire rapid reload lrm-20 in a 5 tube side pack, firing 5 missiles with 2.5 second reloads to deliver the full 20 missiles. This is canon, though it is noteworthy that some Mechs have fast reload times, such as Trebuchet with left arm SRM launcher (3 second reload, but must keep arm straight and if hit during reload the missiles explode! Arm straight isn't possible but high risk for 3+ times reload speed is totally worth it!)
This of course means an LRM5 is literally just gonna be 5 damage in 10 seconds. Missiles will have to become a lot faster and more effective. Proportionally ams will have to become a bit less effective. This is largely something that needs tinkering with. Definitely could do with less lrm spread. (Keep in mind.. with 1* armor structure, an OEM will hit like mwo's Srms damahe-wise and an srm will hit like two srms).

Ppc, er ppc, gauss rifle front loaded, one use per ten seconds
Reg ppc and gauss could have two different charge mechanics, tap to charge for ppc (hit button, charges and fires after delay--toggle field inhibitor to skip charge at risk of weapon damage/explosion). Regular hold to charge and release to fire for Gauss as is now, though other options are welcome such as toggle charge.
REMOVE 90 meter minimum range! It is not canon; the canon is 90 meter minimum accuracy range simulated by charging. Damage is full even at 1 meter.
Note: single use per ten seconds is part of what makes these unattractive for meta, even if fld makes them kinda attractive especially for long range combat. (A single Gauss will hit like two MWO gauss, single ppc will hit like two.)
The thermal troubles will keep ppcs in line. Gauss can be modified to keep it from being used in conjunction with ppcs.
Note:. No charge up for ER PPCs, this is to make up for intense heat.
Limit Gauss to 1 at a time.

Side notes, flamers might need nerf, test first.
Machine guns, 2 damage in 10 seconds per mg. Remove cone of fire. Keep high critical chance. Reduce health of equipment to 1-2 per weapon. (Do not allow excess critical damage to influence more than one piece of equipment for a single critical hit. Not to affect multiple critical hits from a single shot. This is to pre-empt devastating Gauss or ppc hits to prevent ten pieces of equipment from getting destroyed in a single blow.)

Of course this needs work, tweaking, etc. But it is a starting point.

Edited by Koniving, 03 June 2016 - 05:08 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 03 June 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

If you are getting two shot by an archer in a Warhawk, you are doing something wrong, either positionally, or build wise. There is no way an Archer can two shot a Warhawk solo without the Warhawk being able to return ~same damage in that timespan. "Oh, but Vxheous, he brought a crazy SRM build on his Archer, and I only have LPLs" Why didn't you shoot him at range, and how did you let an Archer get in range of you. "But Vxheous, I was busy fighting his team and he snuck up on me" Why did your team not spot him prior to him actually getting into range of you.

Most problems end up back at failure of teamplay/pilot and less having to do with TTK.

Actually it was Crimson Straits, and he hit me as I came around a corner, then I saw him again and thought he was facing my team which was like everyone on my team on the other side and me on the back, I figured he was turned around....he wasnt...BLAM again. I was down to a yellow stripped CT and LT. I have 4x CERPPC, I put the 80 into him, but wasnt truly well aimed as I tried to back up before I got served again.

Either way, that is some pretty crazy *** damage, 93+ dmg in 2 shots. I have 93 on the front, 12 on the rear, 57 on my ST, 12 on the rear. Or I think its actually 93/10, 57/10. Either way, I run maxed armor, so, idk what other "build" stuff I could do.

[GrimRiver]

No, I want to put a 50+ alpha every 2.5 seconds in the rear CT of everything I see
and not be punished for alpha'ing all the time. /sarcasm

Lower heat cap to 30-40 and raise heat dissipation rate.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Alan Davion, on 03 June 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

You're right, TT BT doesn't have that rather generous 40 point heat cap. It has an even more punishing 30 point heat cap.



MWO currently has a flipping 60 point heat cap. Many people, myself included, have been saying the heat cap needs to be reduced. I prefer the 30 point TT cap, but even a 40 point cap would go a long way towards stomping those low-skill pinpoint alpha strikes.

People will just gravitate towards ACs you say? There aren't a whole lot of mechs I know of that have more than about 2 ballistic hard points, and those that do have more, you can't mount more than about 2 AC10s, 2 AC5s or 3-4 AC2s, depending on the mechs base tonnage before you're having to sacrifice your engine size and your armor to mount more ammo to feed those weapons.

The simple fact of the matter is all the weapons in the game have had their values skewed somehow... Lasers are the biggest offenders here because of how easy it is to boat them and synergize them.

Quite frankly all the weapon values, including the heat values need to be reverted back to their TT values and balance needs to start over from square one at this point because of how muddied the waters have gotten in terms of weapon balance and overall game balance.

And honestly, if people did go to a "ballistic" meta, then it would achieve the lower alpha, since not only do you need more space for ammo, but you cant mount as many cannons. 2 AC20s for the big bang, you will be limited to short range, low velocity and not many backup weapons, so, the end goal might just be achieved.

BUt seriously, mechwarrior has always been so much about "the meta" and building the best one shot build that no one even cares about the game.....its not even about the immersion, the universe, lore or enjoying the battlemechs, itsj ust about shooting everything down in 2 hits or less. Yet anotherreason the BT universe is best as a Coop/PVE setting......

[wanderer]

Quote

To quote Atlas description the hip pack contains a FarFire rapid reload lrm-20 in a 5 tube side pack, firing 5 missiles with 2.5 second reloads to deliver the full 20 missiles. This is canon

Canonically, weapons do not spread their damage over the course of a 10-second time turn. That is, an LRM 20 gets it's 20 missiles off in the same time an LRM 5 lobs it's missiles- yes, even the Atlas, which rapidfires 5-5-5-5 in 2.5 seconds or less (that's five missiles every .625 seconds!) . For that matter, they actually reload in approximately 5 seconds, which means in a 10-second interval, an LRM can actually fire twice- it's just that standard rules put almost everything to a grossly simplified 1 shot/10 second turn. Frighteningly enough, Gauss have the same reload times.

Further, all those LRM launchers from 5-20 have identical reload rates- unlike MWO. The standard rules do not have ROF for most weapons unless they specifically have a super-hit ROF mode like Ultras or Rotary ACs.

Edited by wanderer, 03 June 2016 - 03:40 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Koniving, on 03 June 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Some things to consider:

• Firing all weapons in tabletop is to fire all weapons within a 10 second span of time, exactly one user per weapon.
  
  • That is within 10 seconds... an AC/20 does 20 damage, a medium laser does 5 damage, etc.
    
  • In MWO... within 10 seconds an AC/20 without ANY quirks does 60 damage, a medium laser does 15.
    
  • Even then, despite tabletops horrific Front Loaded Pinpoint Damage (Per Weapon), it is scattered all over the enemy mech. Sure the 2-to-100 shot AC/20 is given horrific front loaded pinpoint damage to one section of the mech and the medium laser (averaging 3 shots in lore to get a total of 5 damage) manages exactly one component, but such is the summarized nature of Battletech tabletop.
• In Battletech itself, the "Alpha Strike" is to fire all weapons at exactly the same time.
  
  • This is usually depicted as being done with minimal convergence, as in torso weapons without the ability to pivot (i.e. non-turreted) will fire directly ahead and hit what body parts are directly ahead (i.e. if an Atlas alpha striked at a Kodiak dead in front of it, the Autocannon from the right torso would probably hit the left torso of the Kodiak. The SRMs from the left torso would likely hit ~Mostly~ the right torso of the Kodiak. The arms will most likely hit the center torso depending on range and whether or not aiming for the center torso would put the arms in front of the torso weapons -- in which case the arms would spread wide and probably hit the Kodiak's arms or STs to avoid hitting itself with the missiles or the autocannon.
    
  • This is virtually always depicted as a desperate act by someone that is ABOUT TO DIE, TERRIFIED, or IN A DEMENTED MENTAL STATE while laughing maniacally. There are also two other examples, including one where the pilot lost consciousness and the Alpha Strike is a programmed reaction... as well as the few examples where there were only 2 weapons to begin with and they are linked.

It is a natural thing to do in MWO because it is possible and we have incredibly high heat thresholds and a blatant lack of discomfort from using high heat weaponry.

Mechwarriors are usually nearly naked, wearing refridgeration/cooling vests and even then suffer horrifically from sweating. Part of the accuracy penalty from just 8 units of heat accrued within 10 seconds is from sweat pouring into the eyes of the pilot. That's right: 8 units of heat, sweat in eyes, blurry vision.

Remember, that's 8 units of heat after cooling meaning you did get above that temperature and cooled down to that within the 10 seconds.

Above 14 units meant the potential for shutdown; this dice roll was used to calculate the chances of you overheating from firing too much and reaching 100% within the 10 seconds. For example a Warhawk Primary Configuration. This example is being used because PPCs are canonically single shot weapons with devastating front loaded damage (sure an AC/20 might be 2 to 100 shots to do 20 damage, but a PPC has always been one shot to do full damage, making it one of the most devastating weapons in Battletech Lore before the crazy stuff after 3060).

Source material:
Warhawk Primary Configuration; firing only ER PPCs. 20 DHS. (-4 heat per second).

Spaced shots across 3 seconds each.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. (WARNING 50% threshold.) 15 heat.
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 11.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 7.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold).
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 14.4 heat. (48% Threshold).
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 10.5 heat. (35% Threshold.)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 21.6 heat. (72% threshold)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 17.7 heat. (59% threshold)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 13.8 heat. (46% threshold -- I'm NOT rounding these numbers; the genius of Battletech at work here).
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just an extra second because it's so dangerously close. 9.9 heat. (33% threshold.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Pretty impossible for him to shut down like this. Some notes though, there's a 1/3rd chance at this level of heat that he may have an ammunition explosion depending on how long he stayed above a certain level of heat; he didn't stay up there long so it's slim.
Note: After/during this time, the overal movement capability of the mech after this would be cut by 120 meters due to stiffening joints from Heat Expansion! (Made up for during the next movement phase).
Note: Accuracy due to heat affecting the pilot would be cut by 3; since the average pilot has a gunnery of 5, this means the distractions of sweat in the eyes and the discomfort of being inside the mech would cut his accuracy by 3/5ths or 60% over the next 10 seconds while the Pilot himself recovers from the rise in temperature!

Erratic spacing between each shot. Again assume the BT standard of one use per 10 seconds.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. (WARNING 50% threshold.) 15 heat.
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 11.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. ER PPC fired! +15 heat. 22.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold).
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 1 ER PPC fired! + 15 heat. 29.4 heat. (98% Threshold). (Weapons LOCKOUT!)
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 25.5 heat. (85% Threshold.) (Weapons LOCKOUT! Pilot is overriding!)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. (Weapons LOCKOUT; pilot has overridden.) 21.6 heat. (72% threshold)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 32.7 heat. (109% threshold) (Threshold has been breached! Threshold has been breached! Shutdown in 3...)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 28.8 heat. (96% threshold -- Again I note that I'm NOT rounding these percentages; the genius of Battletech is at work here). (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in... Shutdown has been avoided. Warning: Heat.)
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just a second because it's so dangerously close. 24.9 heat. (83% threshold.) (Warning: Heat.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Oooo, so close to shutting down! Had to override the Battletech weapons lockout (In BT there IS No SHUTDOWN OVERRIDE! It is a weapons lockout override.) Staying slightly over 30 for 3 seconds would've been really bad, since starting back up is not possible until reaching 14 units of heat (46.67% threshold). That was a really close roll. (To mention it for this time, I did melt a heatsink. No ammo explosion though. Was really pushing it but didn't stay above 64% Threshold for long enough at a time.)

2 at a time.

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds).
0 seconds. Fires 2 ER PPC. +30 heat. (WARNING 100% threshold.) 30 heat. (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold reached: Shutdown in 3...)
1 second. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 26.1 heat. (WARNING: Heat!) (Shutdown avoided.) (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 3..)
2 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 22.2 heat. (Warning: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 2...) (Weapons LOCKOUT; pilot is ignoring lockout; no attempt to override.)
3 seconds. -4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 18.3 heat. (61% Threshold). (Ammunition is cooling.) (Weapons have unlocked.)
4 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 14.4 heat.
5 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 2 ER PPCs fired! +30 heat! 40.5 heat. (WARNING 135% Threshold!) (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in 3 seconds...) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp! Cookoff in 2...)
6 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 36.6 heat. (Weapons LOCKOUT!) (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in 2 seconds.) (WARNING: Ammunition Temp!! Cookoff in 1...)
7 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 32.7 heat. (109% threshold) (Threshold has been breached! Threshold has been breached! Shutdown in 1 second...) (AMMO EXPLODES! Left Arm destroyed. Remaining damage prevented by CASE!!)
8 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. 28.8 heat. (96% threshold -- Again I note that I'm NOT rounding these percentages; the genius of Battletech is at work here). (Threshold has been breached, shutdown in... Shutdown has been avoided. Warning: Heat.)
9 seconds. - 4 heat. +0.1 for cruising speed. Pilot waits just a second because it's so dangerously close. 24.9 heat. (83% threshold.) (Warning: Heat.)
10 seconds. -4 heat. Fires 1 ER PPC. +15 heat. 21 heat. (70% of heat threshold).

Oooo, Damn near! Had to override the Battletech weapons lockout. Staying 30 or above for 3 seconds would've been really bad, since starting back up is not possible until reaching 14 units of heat (46.67% threshold). That was super risky move! (Fresh mech. This time it was reported that I had a loss of overall coolant. Also had an ammo explosion. Lost an arm.) We definitely shouldn't forget the movement penalties, accuracy penalties from the distractions of heat (and the explosion and personal injury!)

Alpha strike!

4 ER PPCs. Cruising speed (+1 heat over 10 seconds; note due to turn-based limitation there isn't anything to say the mech stopped right away).
0 seconds. Fires 2 ER PPC. 60 heat. WARNING! At 200% of Mech Heat Tolerance! EMERGENCY SHUTDOWN! Cut Power! All joints locked. Mech may fall over! EXTREMELY LIKELY AMMO EXPLOSION! (If using all rules, the heatsink taxation rule would use a dice roll to determine and punish for any of the following scenarios:

Spoiler

Evaporated Coolant Fluid.
Coolant Leak.
Heatsink Failure [any number of issues from the pump to pretty much anything short of melting].
Heatsink Melting.
In this specific case, I lost 2 heatsinks due to melting at the end of this timeslice.

1 second. -4 heat. 56.1 heat.
2 seconds. -4 heat. 52.2 heat.
3 seconds. -4 heat. 48.3 heat.
4 seconds. -4 heat. 44.4 heat.
5 seconds. -4 heat. 40.5 heat.
6 seconds. -4 heat. 36.6 heat.
7 seconds. -4 heat. 32.7 heat.
8 seconds. -4 heat. 28.8 heat.
9 seconds. -4 heat. 24.9 heat.
10 seconds. -4 heat. 21 heat.

Note that due to limitations of a turn-based game, the shot must be fired at '0' seconds to accurately gauge heat in an MWO-style. The heat was actually gauged using thermal laws, in which a large amount of heat was transferred at first significantly deteriorating (temporarily) the cooling per second (say of 60 heat, 20 of it was absorbed within 2 seconds and the rest absorbed over the remaining value of time gradually; overworking the heatsinks and in this case frying almost 3. Of course the heatsinks wouldn't be any good until the 10 seconds are up once they are completely used for all 40 points of heat as they need time to dissipate the heat as well as absorb it, say about 5 seconds both ways to make it a nice even number. Also had an ammo explosion instantly.)

There's nothing within the board game to attribute a cutoff of movement during the heat phase, though in real time the heat from 'walking' and the overall distance travelled would have both been cut short of the intended movement.

Using this method applied to MWO, the countdown to shutdown would be cut down to 2 around 140% heat and skipped entirely at 150% heat for an instant shutdown. (so 145% would only get a 1 second warning). Weapon lockout is canonically described at approximately 50% heat, however 80% heat seems like a better place for it.

This is literally combining the Tech Manual lore with Basic Battletech, Strat Ops and Tact Ops lore and rules into a real time breakdown.

To note: My choice is Combat Simulation; but MWO IS Candy Crush Saga.

Yeah and in your sim its 1 PPC every 3s, in this game its 1PPC every less then half second. If it was like that, yeah it would be alot nicer. Also, the whole "shut down" part, yeah, the mech shut down, its just like when one stalls an 18 wheeler, you gotta turn it back on. Neutral gear, key off and back on, press the power button, and it revs to life, then you stick in 2nd gear and go again. It should pretty much be the same thing in this game, you shut down, you replay the power up sequence from the 0s of the match.

I agree, this game would benefit alot from alot more sim **** and alot less arcade.

[FupDup]

Fut, on 03 June 2016 - 05:54 AM, said:

It's not all people do now, it's all people have ever done.



Errr. .Well, sort of.
The difference being that in TT after your Alpha your heat is so damn high that you're moving like a slug and it's going to be very difficult for you to hit anything with your next few shots. So you're stuck just trying to get behind cover while your Mech cools. So people don't just Alpha at every opportunity, because there are disadvantages that come with it.

In MWO there are no penalties for riding 99% heat, and the only penalty for over heating is to briefly shut down (don't get me wrong, shutting down at the wrong time can be a death sentence).

Your heat won't get that high if you install more heatsinks in TT. You can actually make mechs that can constantly fire everything they have and never reach the lowest penalty.

MWO forces almost all mechs to overheat no matter how few guns and how many heatsinks you have. The exception is boating certain ballistics like Gauss or AC/5.

TT's heat scale is easier to work around and more forgiving than MWO. TT lets you pack more guns and fewer heatsinks while having higher heat sustainability than MWO does.

Edited by FupDup, 03 June 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Fut]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 03 June 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

For the last time (I know it won't be) this game is NOT a twitch shooter, nor does it resemble one. Twitvh shooting in this ends up getting your damage sprayed all over the place (note those guys running high sensivity on mouse that can't hit a thing).

People need to real the full conversations more.
I referred to MWO as a Twitch Shooter because the guy I was quoting called it that.

[Steel Claws]

How exactly is an alpha strike not realistic?

Haven't you heard of terms like Barrage, Shock and Awe, and Broadside. Military history is positively full of the use of overwhelming firepower to win the day. Why, because it bloody well works of coarse.

There is no problem here - move along - nothing to see.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alan Davion, on 03 June 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

You and I seem to remember Mechwarrior games very differently.

Mechwarrior is supposed to be the RPG portion of the overall Battletech game system. And, I don't know about you, but I don't see any RPG elements here in MWO... Nor do I see them ever adding any.

Now if we were playing Battletech Online, you might have a point there. Hell, HBS' Battletech is pretty much incorporating most of the MW RPG elements into its game.

MechWarrior has never been an RPG. It has always been a first (or 3rd) person shooter with some simulation type elements. WoW, Neverwinter Nights, Diablo, those are RPGs. The only difference is previous MechWarrior titles had story lines, where as this one is PvP only.

Now, you can play previous MechWarrior games differently and be successful because you can go through them only playing against the peons in the campaigns, but that doesn't mean that alpha striking wasn't perfectly effective in previous MechWarrior games.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 June 2016 - 06:04 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Steel Claws, on 03 June 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

How exactly is an alpha strike not realistic?

Haven't you heard of terms like Barrage, Shock and Awe, and Broadside. Military history is positively full of the use of overwhelming firepower to win the day. Why, because it bloody well works of coarse.

There is no problem here - move along - nothing to see.

Yes, from a battery of cannons, or a platoon or more of tanks, or a company of soldiers backed up with a flight or more of aircraft for fire support and all of it together to combine into the massive force that shocks and awes.

Its not 1 tank rolling guns-a-blazin, destroying the entire enemy force.

[Y E O N N E]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 June 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

Yes, from a battery of cannons, or a platoon or more of tanks, or a company of soldiers backed up with a flight or more of aircraft for fire support and all of it together to combine into the massive force that shocks and awes.

Its not 1 tank rolling guns-a-blazin, destroying the entire enemy force.

The whole reason 'Mechs are powerful in BT is precisely because they have the power of several tanks on a platform that has far more agility and dexterity.