99 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

DAYLEET, on 05 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Are we seeing IS mech in the tournament yet? What i saw was TBR HBR Kodiak, Jenner iic, HBK iic and a few SCR ACH. I didnt see anyone really use the better weapon placement of the HBK iic and the SCR is just objectively better imo, as is the TBR and Kodiak, nothing compares.

I am seeing Kodiaks, MX90, Gargoyles, Blackknights, Grasshoppers, Blackjacks, Griffins, Timber Wolf, Stormcrow, Oxides, Jenner II-C, Artic Cheetah, Raven, Firestarter, one Shadowcat and one Spyder. Pretty even with maybe an edge going to the IS Mechs in the middle weight classes. I have watched about 10 of the shout casted matches so far. I would say the Mech that is having the biggest impact is probably the Oxide in the matches that I have watched.

[VinJade]

When it comes down to it, the bias of the developers shines through with how they have dealt with clan mechs and tech in the past and how they bend over backwards to give the IS an upper hand.

Mass positive quirks for the IS while giving almost all of the Clan mechs none or negative ones.
Good example is the Dire Wolf, compare it and all of its neg quirks to that of a IS mech of the same weight such as the Atlas and you will easily see it.

Also the TW was given the shaft hard, while only a few clan mechs are a little too good at what they do such as the ACH but over all the older Clan omnis got hit hard.

[Y E O N N E]

The Dire Wolf has zero negative quirks on it.

The only Clan 'Mech that has detrimental quirks is the TBR, specifically the S torso pods and the A left torso pod. Those quirks are mere torso twist rate or acceleration hits, hardly anything to write home about considering the use-case for those particular pods.

When was the last time you actually played?

[Cy Mitchell]

The ACH is still good but it has lost its status as the top Light. That title is in sole possession of the Oxide followed by the Jenner II-C.

[VinJade]

@YG
So you are saying that the DW lost the neg armor quirk for the head or its other neg quirks?
I doubt it unless they changed it since I last played.
and no I don't pilot any clan mechs these days, sold the only ones I had off for the Stalker.

[Mcgral18]

VinJade, on 05 June 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

@YG
So you are saying that the DW lost the neg armor quirk for the head or its other neg quirks?
I doubt it unless they changed it since I last played.
and no I don't pilot any clan mechs these days, sold the only ones I had off for the Stalker.

-2 armour for a head laser is the only NegaQuirk
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

[LT. HARDCASE]

Hot lasers with insane laser duration. OP needs to fire a Clan ERLL.

[VinJade]

@LT
The OP isn't saying they are just asking a question.
but I agree the Clan lasers have to stay on target much longer than the IS counter parts to even come close to the same damage(it sates this in the tips that show up during loading screen).

And I noticed that my Stalker can fire far more weapons than my LRM Adder could without triggering any thing other tan riding my heat into the red where my Adder was always ridding hot.

[Kael Posavatz]

Most of the commenters here have already hit the hi/low points of the mechs themselves.

One that has not been addressed are maps.

The Quick Play maps are varied enough in terrain and engagement profile to make the range advantage of Clan weapons legitimately useful. Or at least usefuler. And the mixed-tech nature of QP game mode allows IS tech to fill Clan Tech shortcomings, and for Clan Tech to support IS tech.

In FW you don't have the mixed tech supporting each other, and most engagement ranges are short. Very short, as in, under 400 meters at point of contact, and time to close is measured in seconds. In those circumstances the lower-capacity heatsinks of IS aren't really a hindrance since the IS weapons are lower heat, and quirkium structure/armor buffs mean the IS brawl better.

If the FW maps were open enough to fight long-range battles and a war of maneuver, many of the 'issues' people see with Clans would disappear. As it is, the Maps all but force engagements that play to IS strengths and Clan weaknesses.

[Y E O N N E]

VinJade, on 05 June 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

And I noticed that my Stalker can fire far more weapons than my LRM Adder could without triggering any thing other tan riding my heat into the red where my Adder was always ridding hot.

85 ton Stalker can safely fire more weapons than a 35 ton Adder, news at 11.

VinJade, on 05 June 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

@YG
So you are saying that the DW lost the neg armor quirk for the head or its other neg quirks?
I doubt it unless they changed it since I last played.
and no I don't pilot any clan mechs these days, sold the only ones I had off for the Stalker.

Neg armor quirk on the head for the DWF S is still there, but I think that's more of an oversight than it is intentional. They removed all the other negative quirks.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 05 June 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

Is this a joke? Get back under your rock!

As others have said, clans have way less offensive quirks (duration, reduced heat, cooldown, range etc), way less structure. Stream fired LRMs, longer and hotter burning lasers, all of which save the CERLL and large pulse don't have their fill 2x optimal range multiplier and Burst firing ballistics. Omnimechs often have limited pod space with lots of locked equipment and engines that reduces available tonnage which puts a damper on some potentially nasty loadouts. Skill tree got nerfed so mechs aren't as agile, though most IS mechs retained a lot of their mobility though new quirks.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 05 June 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Koujo]

Thanks for the responses. I had no idea about the differences in ghost heat between clan and IS. I'm still not convinced it's totally balanced. Maybe it's not even possible to balance it. But I now know more than I did.

Edited by Koujo, 05 June 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koujo, on 05 June 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Thanks for the responses. I had no idea about the differences in ghost heat between clan and IS. I'm still not convinced it's totally balanced. Maybe it's not even possible to balance it. But I now know more than I did.

Give it a play. Pick one of the solid ones (Hellbringer, Ebon Jag, Storm Crow, Timber Wolf, Kodiak, Hunchback IIC, Jenner IIC, Arctic Cheetah) and see for yourself how good or bad they are.

[VinJade]

@YG
I guess I should go into a little more detail, my Stalker has only 14 Single HSH where is my Adder had 12 DHS.

Stalker has 5 LRM 10s in a 3 - 2 set up and the rest of the weight went into ammo, lasers, and armor.

My Adder had three LRM 10s a lot of ammo, and two ER Medium Lasers.
and it ran far hotter than my Stalker.

[Y E O N N E]

VinJade, on 05 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

@YG
I guess I should go into a little more detail, my Stalker has only 14 Single HSH where is my Adder had 12 DHS.

Stalker has 5 LRM 10s in a 3 - 2 set up and the rest of the weight went into ammo, lasers, and armor.

My Adder had three LRM 10s a lot of ammo, and two ER Medium Lasers.
and it ran far hotter than my Stalker.

And what were the lasers on that Stalker?

Even then, I still don't see a problem. It's in line with that [ridiculous] notion that bigger == better.

[Scout Derek]

you sound new so I'll tell you this:

Get in a clan mech for once, and see how it is.

I know I may sound rude and whatnot, but you don't have a right to call out something that you think is OP when you haven't even tested the thing itself.

But anyhow since I answered the Topic question and not the post question, I'll get to that.

What disadvantages?

Average to no quirks.

Higher heat output.

Fixed equipment and upgrades (Omnimechs)

those 3 primary affect it the most, particularly heat. with 2LPL and 4 mediums you get about 62% heat. with 2 LPL you get 25%+ heat, just for 2LPL.

oh, and longer burn times. Light saber large lasers.

[Mystere]

W A R K H A N, on 05 June 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Skill tree got nerfed so mechs aren't as agile, though most IS mechs retained a lot of their mobility though new quirks.

I wonder why people conveniently forget this one teeny weeny bit of detail.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 05 June 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

I wonder why people conveniently forget this one teeny weeny bit of detail.

Because in the grand scheme of things, it is inconsequential.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Koujo, on 05 June 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Thanks for the responses. I had no idea about the differences in ghost heat between clan and IS. I'm still not convinced it's totally balanced. Maybe it's not even possible to balance it. But I now know more than I did.

The situation is not totally balanced, but is closer than it has been ever since the Clan release. It's just the IS mechs that are better on average now.

Jenner IIC and ACH that are top tier lights and the recently introduced Kodiak which is a strong contender for best assault mech - in other places IS mechs simply edge out their Clan equivalents (slightly or significantly, depends on the weight class/role in question).

Apart from that it's there are some niche builds where Clan mechs perform better or equal to IS mechs (Streak Crows for light hunting, Hunchback IICs for glass cannon but godly poking etc.)<

This is mostly due to IS having both offensive and defensive quirks which are fairly strong, the changes to both Clan and IS DHS and the Clan XL changes.


IMO it is possible to balance IS vs Clans. To achieve perfect balance PGI would simply need to do several rapid revisions of quirks to slightly trim down the top IS mechs and some of the Clan builds like the Kodiak 3 while buffing the underpowered IS and Clan mechs. With balance changes every 2 months, I'm confident they could to it in 6 months.

The coming heat system changes are likely to make things quite unpredictable though.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 05 June 2016 - 12:20 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Their lasers run hotter, which actually isn't as big of a deal as the Clan-apologists will let on. The bigger deal is that their lasers are linked for ghost heat. Where IS can fire six Medium Laser and four Small Laser and trigger no ghost, the Clans will.

Their lasers also only have 1.7x the indicated reach on their Medium and Small class lasers while the Inner Sphere have 2x. Against the quirked IS 'Mechs, it typically results in a wash performance-wise in real-world application.

Clan lasers also have longer burns. Against unquirked IS lasers, they have superior damage per second of burn, but against quirked ones they are either about the same or worse. This means that it is harder for the Clan pilot to distribute damage around his 'Mech while the IS pilot has it easier.

Clan SRMs spread out a lot more and do slightly less damage. This compels Clans to get closer to deal the damage efficiently and almost mandates Artemis IV, tilting the performance-per-ton advantage to the IS.

Clan OmniMechs can't swap out engines, ferro armor, endosteel, and some other miscellaneous equipment, meaning some are good while others are stuck being bad.

Clan auto-cannons fire their rated damage over bursts, allowing targets to spread the damage around in small chunks while IS auto-cannons dump their entire amount into a single shot. IS auto-cannons are extremely damage-efficient, Clans are not.

Also

Doesn't IS have a higher heat capacity, while clan has a slightly higher heat dissipation rate?