61 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

I agree. Scouting and relaying info is super important in MWO. Role warfare is the cornerstone of this game.

Yeah, just another feature PGI got completely and utterly WRONG in this game. Its why I have a hard time even calling this game MWO. I should just call it COD.

[Gas Guzzler]

How about we just learn to play the game we have and focus on adding meaningful content instead of wasting valuable development time on a system designed solely for small section of the player base that wants this game to feel like table top BattleTech instead of MechWarrior. Seriously, we have heat, adding another system on top of that is beyond ridiculous, and seems like a mechanic that another series of games would use, not MechWarrior. Power draw was never a thing in MechWarrior or BattleTech, and it has no place here. All I see is desperation for wanting to wander around out in the open without thinking about how you play.

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

I agree. Scouting and relaying info is super important in MWO. Role warfare is the cornerstone of this game.

The jokes on you because good scouting makes or breaks a match when two good teams are going at it.

[Major Tomm]

It won't work. There is no Power Draw for a mech. There is Heat, Weight, Space and this is the fulcrum for balancing the the three weapon types, the speed, and armor of the mech. Mess with that and it becomes garbage, useless. MWO has no heat penalties other than shutdown with damage, but it also has no true double heatsinks so BTech heat penalties are being replaced by that.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Yeah, just another feature PGI got completely and utterly WRONG in this game. Its why I have a hard time even calling this game MWO. I should just call it COD.

Another joke on you, scouting is at least as important as it was in any previous MechWarrior game. I don't remember scouting being important at all in previous MechWarrior titles, so really, good light play in MWO involves scouting and cleaning up damaged mechs. Lights in previous MechWarrior titles seemed like fodder for the most part.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 June 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 June 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

The jokes on you because good scouting makes or breaks a match when two good teams are going at it.

Oh ffs. Thanks, Sherlock. Are we really going to get into a semantical debate when we both know how the game works and know very well how underdeveloped the information warfare aspect of MWO is?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 June 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

How about we just learn to play the game we have and focus on adding meaningful content instead of wasting valuable development time on a system designed solely for small section of the player base that wants this game to feel like table top BattleTech instead of MechWarrior. Seriously, we have heat, adding another system on top of that is beyond ridiculous, and seems like a mechanic that another series of games would use, not MechWarrior. Power draw was never a thing in MechWarrior or BattleTech, and it has no place here. All I see is desperation for wanting to wander around out in the open without thinking about how you play.

Yeah, except I dont wander anywhere actually. I do waht could be classified as camping. I pretty much follow the pack around hiding behind hills shooting w/e shows itself. I wouldnt dare wander anywhere. This game doesnt feel like Mechwarrior, it feels like COD, like im just walking around in a big power suit while we fire rocket launchers and heavy duty Anti armor weapon at each other. World of Tanks T1s feel more tanky then these mechs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Oh ffs. Thanks, Sherlock. Are we really going to get into a semantical debate when we both know how the game works and know very well how underdeveloped the information warfare aspect of MWO is?

You talked smack about scouting...

Yeah they could do more with information warfare. By all means build upon it. But they have to not spend months on a training wheels system in order to have time to work on that...

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yeah, except I dont wander anywhere actually. I do waht could be classified as camping. I pretty much follow the pack around hiding behind hills shooting w/e shows itself. I wouldnt dare wander anywhere. This game doesnt feel like Mechwarrior, it feels like COD, like im just walking around in a big power suit while we fire rocket launchers and heavy duty Anti armor weapon at each other. World of Tanks T1s feel more tanky then these mechs.

Oh really it feels like COD? That has to be the best joke in this thread. I didn't realize you played Call of duty balled up the entire time, I used to do my own thing and be completely fine. What should MechWarrior feel like then? Standing far away from any teammates aimlessly wandering around out in the open? I don't remember any MechWarrior game quite like that. The whole "it doesn't feel like MechWarrior" argument doesn't resonate with me at all. Maybe you can educate me? I don't see how a power draw system would make it feel like MechWarrior. If anything, it belongs in a generic robot sim not MechWarrior as it has NEVER been a thing in MechWarrior or BattleTech.

[Alistair Winter]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 June 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

You talked smack about scouting...

Yeah they could do more with information warfare. By all means build upon it. But they have to not spend months on a training wheels system in order to have time to work on that...

I talked smack about it in a given context. Everybody knows scouting is important in a sense. That's part of the reason ECM used to be OP, when it ruined IFF. But we were talking about balancing light mechs vs other mechs. Now, the Spider 5V may be excellent at scouting, but that hardly compensates for how crappy it is at everything else. The information warfare element in MWO is just too shallow to properly balance dedicated scouts.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

I talked smack about it in a given context. Everybody knows scouting is important in a sense. That's part of the reason ECM used to be OP, when it ruined IFF. But we were talking about balancing light mechs vs other mechs. Now, the Spider 5V may be excellent at scouting, but that hardly compensates for how crappy it is at everything else. The information warfare element in MWO is just too shallow to properly balance dedicated scouts.

Let them take more consumables, and add consumables like ECM dispensers, deployable radar (like a UAV that can be deployed under ground or under a platform), seismic decoy, deployable seismic sensor, and yes, boost their sensor range and target info gathering. That was one thing PGI could have done right with the rebalance, is give those mechs bonuses to sensors, but the penalties to some of the larger mechs were kinda silly to me.

Maybe a proximity mine consumable as well.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 June 2016 - 08:39 AM.

[Fut]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Is it even going to happen? Either way, I imagine it as a system similar to a movement point system in a turn based RTS, where you get a set amount of points to draw from.

The points would be based off 150% of 10% of your engine rating. So, if you have a 340 engine, you would get 34+17 for a total of 51 Power draw points. They would recharge maybe 2 points per second, maybe 3. But everything you do would draw from it. It would be a system that needs to be managed, just as heat, armor, ammo and everything. Every weapon would be given it's own power draw rating, I imagine PPCs would be like 10, LL would be 7, ERLL would be 9, a Gauss Rifle would be a 12, AC20 would be a 10. Medium laser would be a 5, small laser being a 3. Machinegun would be 1 per 2s fired. And so on(just rough numbers to work with).

Speed would be 1 power draw point per 25KPH, so your in a Warhawk doing the max 64.8kph, it will only do 1 point per 25KHPH, so the Warhawk would only incur 2 power draw points, where if it went 75kph, it would draw a 3rd.

So, the Warhawk with its 340, would have 51 power draw points to play with, so if it fired all 4 PPCs while moving 64,8KPH, it would use up 42 power draw points, in addition to heat.

I imagine this system could kinda curb alphas in that we might now have enough power to even fire all our guns. It would definitively curb the light mechs and their huge firepower, it would make the firepower more Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault.

If you took a Spider with 2 ML and 1 LL, and a 225 Engine, allowing it to go 121KPH. Using a 225 engine would give you 33 Power draw points. The ML being 5 points a piece and the LL being 7 points. If the Spider runs full speed at 121 KPH, you would be using 4 power draw points from movement, giving you 29 remaining for weapons fire.

I would probably envision a system where the hotter you get, you start to lose power draw points, maybe 1 point lost per 15% heat up to 50%, then 1 point per 15% heat until 75%, ending with 1 point per 10% until you shut down. But again, just rough numbers to give an idea.

Then for Clan mechs, when you lose a ST, it would lose 33% of it's power draw points.

Its a system that I imagine curbs power draw through not having enough points to fire everything.

Seems like all of this could have been avoided if PGI had just made a BattleTech style Heat Scale to begin with.
Now we have Ghost Heat doing this, and Power Draw doing that, and combined they sort of/kind of might handle issues that a Heat Scale could have handled this whole time.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 June 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Oh really it feels like COD? That has to be the best joke in this thread. I didn't realize you played Call of duty balled up the entire time, I used to do my own thing and be completely fine. What should MechWarrior feel like then? Standing far away from any teammates aimlessly wandering around out in the open? I don't remember any MechWarrior game quite like that. The whole "it doesn't feel like MechWarrior" argument doesn't resonate with me at all. Maybe you can educate me? I don't see how a power draw system would make it feel like MechWarrior. If anything, it belongs in a generic robot sim not MechWarrior as it has NEVER been a thing in MechWarrior or BattleTech.

The MW games I played, namely 4, it was a single or pack of mechs dropped, engaging in skirmishes along the way completing objectives towards a larger goal. We got salvage, upgraded our stuff, mechs were actually rather tough. Yes, there were builds that could rather quickly kill mechs, but as a whole, mechs felt alot tougher then they do in this game. Even MW3, mechs felt tankier. In none of the previous Mechwarrior games do I remember prancing around in circles spreading damage all over the place, trying to avoid a big 50 point alpha. IN fact, in all the times I ever played every Mechwarrior game, I recall outright dying maybe 5 times? I lost an objective maybe a hand full of times, but yeah. This feels like Call of Duty in a robot suit, in terms of how durable our mechs are.

MW4, I recall ordering my entire lance to fire on one mech and it actually lasting a good deal of time. Obviously, the AI arent PP accurate, but still. Even the AI in MWO BZ, mechs dont last even half as long as previous MW games, despite the double armor values. I have taken assault mechs in MW4 skirmishes vs packs of AI and standing against 4-6 AI mechs and actually coming out on top. Even Heavies were tougher then the assaults in this game. My Warhawk, it has maxed armor 518/518, like 57 and 93 on the front torsos and go around a corner in the BZ, 2 shots later, im orange somewhere, a 3rd shot and its stripped. Twist, I might get yellow across the entire mech.

I recall previous Mechwarrior games being tanky battlemechs in long drawn out back and forth skirmishes. MW4, even light mechs were actually very tough. I have come right up to a Cougar with an Annihilator packing 2 CUAC10s and 2 CUAC20s(cuz yes I played with ammo off), nuking it right dead center in the CT and it falls down, but gets back up only most of the way dead.

I remember MW4 missions taking 20-30 minutes+ between travel time and the skirmishes all over the place. It was nothing like this game........This game is like the time it takes a Heavy Assault in PLanetside 2 to mow down a MAX suit with headshots.....

Also PPFLD has never been a part of Battletech either, but here we are. Sure, you might alpha in TT, but it goes the hell all over the place, with a majority of it likely missing, cuz yes, ive read the rules, a long range shot is like +4 or something, moving is like +2, even hitting in TT sounds like its actually rather difficult. So, a CoF that sends the rounds anywhere but where you aimed would be a thing.

Gun sway from the mech moving, your target moving, the targeting computer needing time to draw a firing solution, accounting for lead and all that is part of it but its not in this game. This game is very much more CoD then it is Mechwarrior. Its point, click, and keep clicking till the target is dead. Nothing to deviate the shot besides your own mouse movements and maybe the enemy twisting a little. we would very much have a COF of sorts, and weapons going where we are not pointing our reticule.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 09 June 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[Triordinant]

[Johnny Z]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Is it even going to happen? Either way, I imagine it as a system similar to a movement point system in a turn based RTS, where you get a set amount of points to draw from.

The points would be based off 150% of 10% of your engine rating. So, if you have a 340 engine, you would get 34+17 for a total of 51 Power draw points. They would recharge maybe 2 points per second, maybe 3. But everything you do would draw from it. It would be a system that needs to be managed, just as heat, armor, ammo and everything. Every weapon would be given it's own power draw rating, I imagine PPCs would be like 10, LL would be 7, ERLL would be 9, a Gauss Rifle would be a 12, AC20 would be a 10. Medium laser would be a 5, small laser being a 3. Machinegun would be 1 per 2s fired. And so on(just rough numbers to work with).

Speed would be 1 power draw point per 25KPH, so your in a Warhawk doing the max 64.8kph, it will only do 1 point per 25KHPH, so the Warhawk would only incur 2 power draw points, where if it went 75kph, it would draw a 3rd.

So, the Warhawk with its 340, would have 51 power draw points to play with, so if it fired all 4 PPCs while moving 64,8KPH, it would use up 42 power draw points, in addition to heat.

I imagine this system could kinda curb alphas in that we might now have enough power to even fire all our guns. It would definitively curb the light mechs and their huge firepower, it would make the firepower more Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault.

If you took a Spider with 2 ML and 1 LL, and a 225 Engine, allowing it to go 121KPH. Using a 225 engine would give you 33 Power draw points. The ML being 5 points a piece and the LL being 7 points. If the Spider runs full speed at 121 KPH, you would be using 4 power draw points from movement, giving you 29 remaining for weapons fire.

I would probably envision a system where the hotter you get, you start to lose power draw points, maybe 1 point lost per 15% heat up to 50%, then 1 point per 15% heat until 75%, ending with 1 point per 10% until you shut down. But again, just rough numbers to give an idea.

Then for Clan mechs, when you lose a ST, it would lose 33% of it's power draw points.

Its a system that I imagine curbs power draw through not having enough points to fire everything.

I really don't have a clue how power draw/energy pool will be done or if it will be done, but one thing I can almost be 100% sure of is it wont be based on engine size.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Triordinant, on 09 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Pretty much, since energy weapons are drawing power from the engine to charge up and fire.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

The MW games I played, namely 4, it was a single or pack of mechs dropped, engaging in skirmishes along the way completing objectives towards a larger goal. We got salvage, upgraded our stuff, mechs were actually rather tough. Yes, there were builds that could rather quickly kill mechs, but as a whole, mechs felt alot tougher then they do in this game. Even MW3, mechs felt tankier. In none of the previous Mechwarrior games do I remember prancing around in circles spreading damage all over the place, trying to avoid a big 50 point alpha. IN fact, in all the times I ever played every Mechwarrior game, I recall outright dying maybe 5 times? I lost an objective maybe a hand full of times, but yeah. This feels like Call of Duty in a robot suit, in terms of how durable our mechs are.

You mean, in single player missions with computer opponents that are programed to not have perfect aim? That doesn't prove anything. Single player has always been easier in every game ever, its you vs mobs and mobs and mobs of enemies all vastly underpowered and underskilled compared to you, their only hope is by overwhelming you with numbers. Then you get to PvP and realize "Wow, I can't completely roflstomp everybody like I could in single player". That's what makes PvP more difficult, you don't get to be the super-soldier holding back mobs and mobs of enemies, you are actually playing equal opponents. It sounds like REALLY, you won't be happy until there is single player so you can play super MechWarrior and dominate everybody.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 June 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Johnny Z, on 09 June 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

I really don't have a clue how power draw/energy pool will be done or if it will be done, but one thing I can almost be 100% sure of is it wont be based on engine size.

Yeah, its going to be based on some unrelated, arbitrary system that makes absolutely no sense. I mean, where do we all think that energy is being drawn from? The heat sinks in the feet? Im applying logic to the system, the bigger the engine, the power you would have to draw from. But, yeah, if all the systems in place to date are any indication, the system we get wont make any sense.

Isnt the idea of the power draw to limit or lower the sustained output each mech can manage? Using it in my system would do that in a way. We would have a 2 fold system, which honestly makes more sense then ghost heat. Set the bar for each weapon system to a point alongside the heat system where it is physically impossible to even alpha huge amounts. Engines in these mechs reminds me of nothing more then a gigantic house breaker, where you load to much into it all at once and it blows. Where instead if you fire 1 PPC, wait, fire another, then another, it will manage just fine. Fire all 4 at once, you not only will incur a huge heat spike, but you will over load the engine and it might just either break and fail or just explode.

We could also go the Ghost damage route, where firing to much at once draws to much power and weapons fired over the max allotment of energy starts to decrease in damage....but do we need more ghost stuff in this game?

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

Original poster has the right idea. However I would make 1 modification.

For this I need those of you old enough to go back to the days of playing Xwing vs. Tie Fighter. You should remember when you would use F9 and F10 to redirect the total amount of energy going to either your engines, shields or weapons.

While shields are not an option in this game, the idea of someone having to decide whether he wanted more energy for speed or for firepower would add another of layer of depth to this game. It would also have the added advantage of cutting down on the pure laser builds making lower energy draw weapons like auto-cannons more attractive.

Edited by ZippySpeedMonkey, 09 June 2016 - 02:00 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 June 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

You mean, in single player missions with computer opponents that are programed to not have perfect aim? That doesn't prove anything. Single player has always been easier in every game ever, its you vs mobs and mobs and mobs of enemies all vastly underpowered and underskilled compared to you, their only hope is by overwhelming you with numbers. Then you get to PvP and realize "Wow, I can't completely roflstomp everybody like I could in single player". That's what makes PvP more difficult, you don't get to be the super-soldier holding back mobs and mobs of enemies, you are actually playing equal opponents. It sounds like REALLY, you won't be happy until there is single player so you can play super MechWarrior and dominate everybody.

It was alot more enjoyable then the no heat, no ammo, jump jet, 6 PPC spamming Stone Rhinos and other jump capable mechs we had in PVP. I did try PVP for like 5 games in MW4. The first 3 were Stone Rhinos, Black Knights and w/e else with no heat, no ammo, Poptarting around a canyon. The other some little **** ball mech came up and legged me right off the bat. The 5th I think I joined the room and was like...wth am I doing?

As for me in PVP, naw, ive PVP'd plenty and done just fine. Played BF2142, 1.89KDR with a positive WR, BF2, 1.71 KDR with a positive WR, BFBC2, 1.7 KDR with a positive WR. Planetside 2, 5.75KDR, I didnt really give 2 shits about bases. World of Tanks, positive KDR and a 52.7% WR. ****, this game right now, ive got a 1.4 KDR, since ive got a PC that can now run this game. My WR is positive by 8 atm. Had I had a more powerful PC from the beginning, I no doubt am certain I would have had at least 100 more kills, probably 50 less deaths and my WR would be at least 50 more wins and 50 less losses. Alot of my bad record was my PC not running the game to a point where I literally couldnt contribute at all. So, naw, its not about me not being happy with PVP. Im just tired of PVP.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 June 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

It was alot more enjoyable then the no heat, no ammo, jump jet, 6 PPC spamming Stone Rhinos and other jump capable mechs we had in PVP. I did try PVP for like 5 games in MW4. The first 3 were Stone Rhinos, Black Knights and w/e else with no heat, no ammo, Poptarting around a canyon. The other some little **** ball mech came up and legged me right off the bat. The 5th I think I joined the room and was like...wth am I doing?

As for me in PVP, naw, ive PVP'd plenty and done just fine. Played BF2142, 1.89KDR with a positive WR, BF2, 1.71 KDR with a positive WR, BFBC2, 1.7 KDR with a positive WR. Planetside 2, 5.75KDR, I didnt really give 2 shits about bases. World of Tanks, positive KDR and a 52.7% WR. ****, this game right now, ive got a 1.4 KDR, since ive got a PC that can now run this game. My WR is positive by 8 atm. Had I had a more powerful PC from the beginning, I no doubt am certain I would have had at least 100 more kills, probably 50 less deaths and my WR would be at least 50 more wins and 50 less losses. Alot of my bad record was my PC not running the game to a point where I literally couldnt contribute at all. So, naw, its not about me not being happy with PVP. Im just tired of PVP.

If you are tired of PvP, then why are you campaigning for irritating, non-MechWarrior mechanics instead of PvE? Even power draw will not make you safe, it will just shift the meta.