10 replies to this topic

[Suicidalspectre]

For a cost of time and credits you could return to your teams resupply vehicle and get a refill of ammo and at least a partial repair(no limb replacement)

[zachyattacky]

I like the idea, kind of. Not sure about the repair part though. It could add something interesting to late game strats however.

The only thing I don't like about this is that it would be really ****** for those pos jenners to be able to just pack on extra srms, less and less ammo, just so they could go refill after carelessly wasting their ammo. I hate those jenners enough, I'd hate for them to have an unlimited supply of ammo.

[invernomuto]

In BT novels repair&rearm ops for a mech last for hours. I am not sure if it's a good idea to introduce them in 15-30 mins battles. It could feels too much arcade IMHO.
My 2 cents.

[Hotthedd]

invernomuto, on 13 June 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

In BT novels repair&rearm ops for a mech last for hours. I am not sure if it's a good idea to introduce them in 15-30 mins battles. It could feels too much arcade IMHO.
My 2 cents.

This.
Repairs and re-supply take longer than the matches do.

[Rebas Kradd]

I'm willing to sacrifice a little lore realism for a gameplay element that mixes things up, creates economy, and needs to be defended from enemies (which any resupply vehicle should).

[Hotthedd]

Rebas Kradd, on 14 June 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

I'm willing to sacrifice a little lore realism for a gameplay element that mixes things up, creates economy, and needs to be defended from enemies (which any resupply vehicle should).

That is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? The appeal of MW:O to a very large part of the player base is the lore and BT aspects of the game. There are other mecha arcade shooters out there.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Hotthedd, on 15 June 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

That is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? The appeal of MW:O to a very large part of the player base is the lore and BT aspects of the game. There are other mecha arcade shooters out there.

Good point. I think we should be very careful with things like that. Repairing mechs mid-battle seems too off, but I think well incorporated ammo resupply could be used. In TT, as far as I remember, mechs shoot every 10 seconds or so, while here, they sometimes can shoot almost every second, so speeding up ammo resupply alone would not be THAT off.

IMHO:

Repair no, ammo resupply yes. Maybe not vehicles, but stations. They would need to be limited, like 1-2 and available only in certain cases, e.g. for defenders in invasion FP match. Also, resupply would need to take a certain amount of time, like 15-20 seconds (or, e.g. 10 seconds per ton of ammo) and would require the mech to power down for the duration. Of course, ammo stations would also need to be destructibe and explode violenty upon destruction, damaging nearby mechs and outright killing the mech that was using it.

That would make them a mixed blessing, not promote ammo-dependant mechs too much (in FP they're a bit underrepresented, but still), create more tactical options and secondary objectives, without being too arcade.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 15 June 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Hotthedd, on 15 June 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

That is a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? The appeal of MW:O to a very large part of the player base is the lore and BT aspects of the game. There are other mecha arcade shooters out there.

For me, resupply vehicles make the game more deep and complex, not less. They're something that can be purchased, they're something that needs to be protected in-game, and they're something that requires more decision-making. Win-win.

[Danjo San]

invernomuto, on 13 June 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

In BT novels repair&rearm ops for a mech last for hours. I am not sure if it's a good idea to introduce them in 15-30 mins battles. It could feels too much arcade IMHO.
My 2 cents.

If it is possible to go from dusk to dawn in 15 minutes, a process that takes several hours, it seems more than legit that a mech can be rearmed in a decent amount of time.

[Hotthedd]

Danjo San, on 15 June 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

If it is possible to go from dusk to dawn in 15 minutes, a process that takes several hours, it seems more than legit that a mech can be rearmed in a decent amount of time.

Not every planet has Earth's rotational velocity.
Ammo dependent weapons need to have a drawback. Need more ammo? Sacrifice armor or heat sinks or backup weapons, etc.

[Koniving]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 15 June 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Good point. I think we should be very careful with things like that. Repairing mechs mid-battle seems too off, but I think well incorporated ammo resupply could be used. In TT, as far as I remember, mechs shoot every 10 seconds or so, while here, they sometimes can shoot almost every second, so speeding up ammo resupply alone would not be THAT off.

Actually, it isn't that mechs shoot every 10 seconds, it is that all tabletop elements are rated for 10 seconds of use, accounting for aiming, enemy dodging, repeated shooting, etc., etc., etc.

Spoiler

A detailed description of autocannons states that they actually have ranges of over 2 kilometers for all of them (yep, AC/2 and AC/20), but the difference is that if you took all four main versions of autocannons (2, 5, 10, 20) and compared them within the same caliber of ammunition (say 40mm), you'd have the AC/2 firing 8 shots to get 2 damage at 0.25 damage, the AC/5 firing 20 shots, the AC/10 firing 40 shots, and the AC/20 churning out 80 shots.. all within the same time period (lets assume it is 4 seconds of fire).

Take this, and now consider the accurate ranges. The AC/2 only has to land a burst of 8 shots. Thus its long range of 720 meters (to expect an average pilot to be able to land hits on a moving, dodging target without additional undue difficulty) and its minimum accuracy range of 120 meters, as any closer than that and hitting the target consistently in roughly the same area becomes incredibly difficult as it rushes by you or encircles you.
Meanwhile the Ac/5 might make 2 bursts of 10 shots, allowing you to space that timing and calibrate the aim but, of course. Or it could be an automatic chain gun churning a single shot every fraction of a second. Either way you gotta compensate for recoil, etc., and the range is 540 meters for the same expectancy of accuracy. Its minimum range is 90 meters, not entirely sure how that adds up other than more shots and thus more chances to make it stick.

So on and so on.

I tend to prefer 120mm as it has the best explanation even though it conflicts a bit with the overall "approximate damage scale" that I have developed. The GM whirlwind AC/5 on a Marauder is 120mm and the specific example is it churns out 3-4 bullets per second, approximately 12 shots per cassette and has a 5 second magazine exchange time (that is ejecting one cassette and feeding in the next). In total that means between 3 and 4 seconds of firing time plus a 5 second reload.

Continuing this example, it is described as painfully Sloooow for an AC/5, but each 120mm hit is heavy. (In my damage scale from compiling 'agreeable' stuff from numerous novels and authors, 120mm is approximately 1.25 damage per shot but this example works out to 0.4167 damage per shot; keep in mind this example is written in 1986.) This in turn would mean that an AC/10 would deliver 24 shots in the same amount of time -- which in ~Most~ AC/10s they are just 80mm to 120mm and basically have double the firing rate of any AC/5 without the jam risk that an Ac/5 would have to try and match it. An Ac/20 of the same caliber would deliver 48 shots. And an AC/2 might do "4.8" shots.

Keep in mind that an AC/2 beyond 90mm does Not Exist... and in the books it has never gone past 80mm, only in Sarna, Tech Manual and in BattleTechnology has it reached 90mm. Also keep in mind, that very specific example though very detailed, disagrees with the damage scale I have developed using many sources which have come after that example written by William H Keith Jr (the first Battletech novelist) and edited by unknown person(s) responsible for the rules of the first and second iterations of Battletech.

Battletech also explains that "Rounds" are incorrectly labelled, as ammunition you have "X uses"... or X rounds of the match. The canonical explanation is that it is shorted to put "Rounds" on a screen than "Cassettes" as well as easier to read on lower resolution screens and HUDs that some pilots are forced to use. Each cassette or Round is a magazine of ammunition containing Y amount of ammo. Thus if your AC/20 is like that in the Marauder example of 120mm, and an Ammo Bin contains 5 rounds, it has 5 magazines of 48 shots per magazine or cassette. Of course this means you need to land 48 to make 20 damage.

BT also states that ratings are loose, so you could get away with 40 of 48 and get 20 damage... if you consider it "loosely"... and extra damage if you land all 48 "direct blow" or less if you miss with some "glancing blow".

So, in effect... The damage, ratings, etc. in Battletech are summarized for simplicity.

This said, a weapon is rated for damage in that 10 second period, even though most things specify that the weapons can and do shoot faster if you're foolish and rules accommodate for this (for autocannons) or in some cases you could shoot less (lasers, rules accommodate for this with selecting 'output' (Example shown here with Nova and ER ML))... and some weapons such as PPCs and Gauss Rifles and most missile launchers ... really do shoot as slow as once every 10 or so seconds and are as front loaded as can be, unlike autocannons and lasers.
Edit: Original thread has been deleted...

Spoiler

Weapon Attack Phase
-------------------
Weapons fire for Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving)
ER Medium Laser at BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 6 : - Glancing Blow - hits LA
BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred) takes 3 damage to LA.
4 Armor remaining.


ER Medium Laser at BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 6 : - Glancing Blow - hits LL
BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred) takes 3 damage to LL.
10 Armor remaining.


ER Medium Laser at BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 8 : hits LT
BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred) takes 7 damage to LT.
8 Armor remaining.


ER Medium Laser at BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 2 : misses


ER Medium Laser at BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 4 : misses


ER Medium Laser at BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred); needs 6, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - hits LT
BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred) takes 8 damage to LT.
0 Armor remaining.


Weapons fire for BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred)
SRM 6 at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 3 : misses


Medium Laser at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - hits RL
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) takes 6 damage to RL.
Armor destroyed, 8 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on RL. Roll is (9+2) = 11; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Lower Leg.
CRITICAL HIT on Jump Jet.


Medium Laser at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - hits LT
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) takes 6 damage to LT.
3 Armor remaining.


Medium Laser at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 9 : - Direct Blow - hits LA
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) takes 6 damage to LA.
Armor destroyed, 5 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on LA. Roll is (5+2) = 7; no effect.


Medium Laser at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 7 : hits RT
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RT.
5 damage transfers to CT.
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) takes 5 damage to CT.
6 Armor remaining.


Machine Gun at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 9, rolls 5 : misses

Machine Gun at Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving); needs 9, rolls 4 : misses



BattleMaster BLR-1G (Lordred) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (20+ damage).
The base target is 4 [4 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (4 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (20+ damage)); needs 5, rolls 9 : succeeds.

Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) must make 2 piloting skill roll(s) (leg/foot actuator hit; 20+ damage).
The base target is 4 [4 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (4 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (leg/foot actuator hit) + 1 (20+ damage)); needs 6, rolls 6 : succeeds.
Roll #2, (4 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (20+ damage) + 1 (leg/foot actuator hit)); needs 6, rolls 4 : falls.
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) falls on its front, suffering 5 damage.
Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) takes 5 damage to CT.
1 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving) "Carol Guzmán" must roll 6 to avoid damage; rolls 6 : succeeds.

(Will have better example uploaded later).

This said, we're churning out 3 to (at one point) 38 times the amount of damage any weapon can deliver in the same amount of time or less than Battletech's 10 seconds for the same weapon. This means we're consuming that much more ammo, that much more heat, etc.

Thus agreed, resupplies would make some sense in MWO (and I'm a lore buff), but only in single ton increments and I imagine it'd keep you stationary for 20 or so seconds where you would have to remain shut down so that they could load it. Wouldn't want to get caught like that. And while enemies reload would be a great time to storm in.