41 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

With the Huntsman announcement, I am rethinking the logic of taking fall damage for hard landing.

Now, let me be totally clear. I understand that this was a way to make pop-tarting harder and as a way of game play balance.

But realistically from an engineering standpoint, why would I design a gyro system with jump jet capability without the appropriate suspension to support it? These are the people that went about designing self-encapsulating war machines...

(tangent: PS this is why I think you don't see future F-22s dominate the battlefield, because it's not easy to adapt fighters into multiple possible planetary environment. there's density, gas composition, gravity, and a host of other problems. so it sorta makes sense for something like a battlemech, which by all mean should be impractical, to actually be the most practical. end tangent)

... that can survive all planetary environments with complex systems. Yet somehow, they are so cavalier with designing jump jets that... it's basically just rocket booster attached with no consideration what so ever with the suspension?

That doesn't seem right. Also, you know how I know how hard landing shouldn't cause damage? Cause you are literally dropped off of a giant airplane from the max jump jet height of many mechs with no soft landing support, and walk away with no damage. And you know how that's verifiable? Cause if you drop as an ACH, you can't jump jet straight up to get back in.

(tangent 2: why armor damage anyhow? If anything, shouldn't it damage the internal of the legs? end tangent 2)

So what's my point? Well, let's imagine an alternate system. Mechs like the huntsman, nova, shadowcat, or whatever other natural born jump jet capable mechs take no damage from falls. (Within the confine of the maximum height of course, for example, if an ACH can jump 50 meters, it will still take damage if fallen from 51 meters)

However, jump jet is mountable on all mechs. For all other none natural jump jet capable mechs (your warhammer, ebon jaguar, etc), you can mount jump jets, but they are basically just mounting rocket boosters, which means that you WILL take damage if you don't perform a soft landing.

That makes sense, right?

(O right, the lore... sigh...)

Edited by razenWing, 15 June 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[Mechteric]

Logically, you would make a tank on wheels, not a tank on legs.


Also, jump jets in this universe are not made for constant use to buffer a fall from any height. It was only meant for jumping a certain distance and landing. Now that distance can be over some horizontal distance, but could also be used to to climb up over some vertical distance. So if you are trying to reach a cliff that is hundreds of meters up, you could use up your jets to land up on it. Or perhaps you fail to reach it, and you fall. That's going to be a lot of weight slamming onto the ground with no jets to help soften the landing.

Gravity is a *****, and it hurts when you hit the ground at high velocity. Such are the rules of physics.

[Roughneck45]

Logic and Battletech?

Go home razenWing, you're drunk.

[Ryokens leap]

Maybe it will have leg structure quirks like the Shadowcat( which can handle all kinds of leg abuse).

[Revis Volek]

It doesnt hurt until you go over the limit, be it height or speed.

This is how things are ENGINEERED, Even STEEL has a limit. Hit it with a brass hammer at low speeds, no marks or very little, more dmg to the brass hammer.

Now take a ball of Steel and fire it at said pc you just hit with a hammer, fire it at a speed well above the hammer swing and watch what happens.

Same thing goes for a truck or other vehicles, they have PAYLOAD limits, yea you can OVER that limit but you will cause dmg to your trucks suspension system (like some flat leaf springs at least). It might run for a while like that but eventually, your gonna blow a tire.


When you take leg dmg you have GONE OVER THE LIMIT of what your mech is capable of, be it fall speed or distance. There are limits in real life so they added some to the game too. Seemed legit to me actually...I can still poptart all day without hurting my legs as long as i cushion my fall. Or just use the SHOCK ABSORBANCE module to lessen the dmg if you are having a hard time.


I agree it hurting armor ONLY is silly, it should be halved half the dmg to armor and the rest to the structure that was mangled under the intense (and again over the limit) weight of your machine.

Edited by Revis Volek, 15 June 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[razenWing]

CapperDeluxe, on 15 June 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Logically, you would make a tank on wheels, not a tank on legs.


Also, jump jets in this universe are not made for constant use to buffer a fall from any height. It was only meant for jumping a certain distance and landing. Now that distance can be over some horizontal distance, but could also be used to to climb up over some vertical distance. So if you are trying to reach a cliff that is hundreds of meters up, you could use up your jets to land up on it. Or perhaps you fail to reach it, and you fall. That's going to be a lot of weight slamming onto the ground with no jets to help soften the landing.

Gravity is a *****, and it hurts when you hit the ground at high velocity. Such are the rules of physics.

On the first point, if I am designing a self encapsulating all purpose "tank," it would absolutely make sense to have the propulsion system be leg based instead of wheel based. Wheels are actually quite terrible in most terrains that are not flat. Again, we can't think of the universe as all Earth like. Most of them are aliens are probably don't have very well paved road.

On second point, a well designed suspension is not conflicting with how often you use your jumpjets. Yea, I understand gravity and weight = not a good mix. But again, from an engineering stand point, if I am literally designing something with a certain capability, I better damn well make sure that I have the necessary springs or whatever to receive it on maximum calculated impact.

I mean, these mechs are specifically designed to have jump jets. They are not spur of the moment module attachment.

Revis Volek, on 15 June 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

It doesnt hurt until you go over the limit, be it height or speed.

This is how things are ENGINEERED, Even STEEL has a limit. Hit it with a brass hammer at low speeds, no marks or very little, more dmg to the brass hammer.

Now take a ball of Steel and fire it at said pc you just hit with a hammer, fire it at a speed well above the hammer swing and watch what happens.

Same thing goes for a truck or other vehicles, they have PAYLOAD limits, yea you can OVER that limit but you will cause dmg to your trucks suspension system (like some flat leaf springs at least). It might run for a while like that but eventually, your gonna blow a tire.


When you take leg dmg you have GONE OVER THE LIMIT of what your mech is capable of, be it fall speed or distance. There are limits in real life so they added some to the game too. Seemed legit to me actually...I can still poptart all day without hurting my legs as long as i cushion my fall. Or just use the SHOCK ABSORBANCE module to lessen the dmg if you are having a hard time.


I agree it hurting armor ONLY is silly, it should be halved half the dmg to armor and the rest to the structure that was mangled under the intense (and again over the limit) weight of your machine.

Well, that's kinda my thing though. Why would you design something, especially something that you know are designed for verticality, and not take into account the maximum capability of the springs? Should they not corroborate? For example, if your spring can only support a 20 meter vertical jump, then it's just poor engineering to let you jump 40 meters. Now, maybe you can argue that it's reserved capacity, then shouldn't a limiter be placed that you at least need to override to go beyond your limit? (like the heat override. so it's not a foreign concept to have safe guards)

Edited by razenWing, 15 June 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Logically, you use a portion of your JJ burn time to slow your descent and soften the landing. If you are forced to expend all your reaction mass in extremis, you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

[Sader325]

You're right. Expect you are forgetting something.

The designers gave you enough jump jet fuel to both jump jet high, and then expend the rest of your fuel to land safely.

By your logic, helicopters should be given fuel only for flying, and none for landing.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Sader325, on 15 June 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

By your logic, helicopters should be given fuel only for flying, and none for landing.

Illogical. Helicopters are meant to fly. If helicopters do not fly, then they do not serve their purpose. So his logic, if helicopters were not meant to fly, and specifically, if helicopters were mechs, they would indeed have fuel for flying, but then a parachute system (depending on the height), and increased shock and suspension systems built in.

However, my position is that such things are/would only be implemented as a precaution/emergency feature, and just because my mech has better suspension, would not be something I would rely on as I fling myself into the air.

So I agree with OP, in that if you have a mech with the intent of using jumpjets then you would take the precaution to install better systems to help your mech from crippling under it's weight, but I don't agree that they are something that any pilot should depend on, and pilots should still be required to plan for a soft landing. Suspension and the extra shock absorption would only serve the purpose of making an accidental hard landing less of an issue.
Better suspension would also allow you to go higher, as less jumpjets are required to save your legs.

But, as all things have wear and tear, you'd be paying for that luxurious suspension in the mechlab.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 15 June 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 15 June 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

Logically, you use a portion of your JJ burn time to slow your descent and soften the landing. If you are forced to expend all your reaction mass in extremis, you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Well, with how crappy JJs are now, that's the case for a bunch of jumps. Sometimes you fall a little short and slide down the side of what you're jumping to and take damage. D:

[Revis Volek]

MoonUnitBeta, on 15 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Illogical. Helicopters are meant to fly. If helicopters do not fly, then they do not serve their purpose. So his logic, if helicopters were not meant to fly, and specifically, if helicopters were mechs, they would indeed have fuel for flying, but then a parachute system (depending on the height), and increased shock and suspension systems built in.

However, my position is that such things are/would only be implemented as a precaution/emergency feature, and just because my mech has better suspension, would not be something I would rely on as I fling myself into the air.

So I agree with OP, in that if you have a mech with the intent of using jumpjets then you would take the precaution to install better systems to help your mech from crippling under it's weight, but I don't agree that they are something that any pilot should depend on, and pilots should still be required to plan for a soft landing. Suspension and the extra shock absorption would only serve the purpose of making an accidental hard landing less of an issue.
Better suspension would also allow you to go higher, as less jumpjets are required to save your legs.

But, as all things have wear and tear, you'd be paying for that luxurious suspension in the mechlab.

Part of SUCCESSFULLY flying is taking off and landing SAFELY.

If you cant do both you did not fly, you crashed. The wright brothers would have loved to work under these rules, they would have flight down after the first hop according to this.


Now giving us a limit/restriction that we can choose to turn off is a perfectly acceptable idea to me. If you are capable of a 30 meter jump with no issues but you have enough fuel to go 55 meters and you choose to TURN OFF the limit then thats on you. But i dont see them adding these mechanics just for the sake of change. Its not broken really at all...

it is however a nice thought and would ad some more immersion IMO.

Edited by Revis Volek, 15 June 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Snowbluff, on 15 June 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

Well, with how crappy JJs are now, that's the case for a bunch of jumps. Sometimes you fall a little short and slide down the side of what you're jumping to and take damage. D:

That's an argument for tweaking JJ performance, not removing fall damage altogether.

[GreenHell]

I had a think about why "future F-22's" wouldn't be dominant. You "COULD" build a bypass turbine that would work in 'any' atmosphere so long as it was substantially thick enough to 'fly' through, but that would require the use of highly refined (and expensive) fuels. Also, Ion propulsion research is moving along at a fairly good rate so I wouldn't be surprised to see them being used on probes in the future. An extremely powerful Ion thruster could propel a craft around in space or low-grav targets. Of course, that's all hypothesis...

I do think that JJ's need a rethink. Currently medium JJ's are pretty much where they should be. I would like to see more differentiation between the different classes of JJ's to make them more unique and actually make them useful. Since mid-JJ's are almost perfect, lets use those as a sort of 'middle-ground'. I also do believe in a turn speed increase for all JJ's (some more than others...). I also believe in more JJ fuel across the board. And yes, JJ's shouldn't hurt legs unless you're jumping from a great height (more than PGI lets us currently anyways...)

Light JJ's - Lets take these things and give them the best upward thrust. A light should be able to scale the highest buildings with it's JJ's so that it can get advantageous positions for scouting and maneuvering. However, they will also end up losing the most forward speed over time when airborne since the JJ's won't be pushing them forward. That will keep lights from being able to do 'too much' rooftop parkour stuff.

Mid JJ's - Almost perfect, but I would suggest that they not go 'higher' than Light JJ's. Instead, give them a bit more forward thrust so they can span gaps the best, but also reach relatively high spots. I'm not talking a huge amount less height here, just enough to let light mechs have the best altitude. Six JJ's on a Cicada should still have it jumping pretty danged high up. Pretty small changes overall, and it makes sense. Mediums are supposed to be able to do everything and be kinda average.

Heavy JJ's - I've always been torn about heavies with JJ's. Some seem worth it, and others seem completely dumb. 75 tonners with JJ's are almost as bad as Assaults unless you spend 4 or 5 tons on them. You can overcome the issue by bringing the full amount of JJ's but then it's too heavy. So, lets make them more unique. Instead of weak JJ's that work the same as all the others, lets push them towards 'forward' thrust instead of upward thrust. This would give them the ability to do "fly-by's" at 70kph through the air, and not lose speed when spanning gaps (or lose very little). This keeps heavies as pack leaders and front line pushers by letting them keep their momentum in combat, while also discouraging poptarts (which PGI hates).

Assault JJ's - Ah, the ever un-popular HoverJets... What do we do with these heavy ********? Since PGI likely won't increase jumping height for Assaults due to their loathing of poptarts, I suggest we make two changes. First, hugely increase JJ fuel for Assaults. You can reduce thrust to keep total height about the same, but give them MASSIVE fuel reserves so that they can actually span a gap for once. Secondly, give a HUGE increase to JJ's turn speed bonus for Assaults. Too many times I've seen whales with JJ's that simply can't turn or twist fast enough to catch even a mildly fast mech behind them. With increased JJ turn bonuses, Assaults could spend tonnage on the ability to survive and even fight a flanking mech. We might even see whales be able to make a turn that doesn't require a full 1/2 mile circle!

Now, this is all opinion on my part and I know someone won't agree. Just putting my thoughts out there.

Edited by GreenHell, 15 June 2016 - 03:04 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Popatarting is only a problem because of a combination of completely ****** hitreg thanks to failures with HSR and hitbox synchronization between client/server and broken animations.

If hitreg was even 80% accurate and as reliable as what a client sees on his screen, it would cease to be an issue.

But seeing things as they are now, with PGI unable to fix, or even acknowledge it as being a hitreg problem worth solving, we continue to keep feeding the notion that JJ's in themselves are giving this giant advantage in combat, and worthy of being nerfed and staying that way indefinitely.

Anyone with half a brain knows this, but since that only accounts for about 8% of the MWO population, and the rest of that 92% are morons that think everything is working perfectly, nothing is going to change.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I wish that instead of just straight up taking leg damage on impacting the ground above a certain speed, it should bleed more horizontal velocity and add a recovery time that increases with impact speed.

Humans can prevent or reduce injury to their legs on impact by absorbing the shock with muscles throughout the body. Why shouldn't mechs be able to do this? Obviously mechs are not as agile as humans, but a well-trained pilot and well-designed algorithms should be able to spread the shock throughout the mech's structure and actuators, right?

You could even add some player-controllable factors to determine if they take damage or not. Say reducing your throttle before impact increases the height at which your mech can fall without taking damage, as the legs would be able to absorb the shock better if they're not trying to run at full speed on contact with the ground. Aligning the legs in the direction of your mech's horizontal movement should allow you to land without losing as much speed, as mech's legs are designed to move and absorb shock forwards and backwards, not so much laterally. It would add a bit more in terms of real piloting skill to the game, I'd say.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 15 June 2016 - 03:33 PM.

[wanderer]

Jump jets in this game are capable of pushing flight time at the risk of not having enough juice left to brake at the end. Thus leg damage.

[Mister Blastman]

razenWing, on 15 June 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

But realistically from an engineering standpoint, why would I design a gyro system with jump jet capability without the appropriate suspension to support it? These are the people that went about designing self-encapsulating war machines...

(O right, the lore... sigh...)

F=M*A

(force = mass * acceleration) and to carry it further...

p = mv

(momentum = mass * velocity)

And then you must consider the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states (to summarize), "Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only transferred."

So, what does this mean?

If you use all of the above, you can determine that...

a. A falling battlemech has force through mass
b. A falling battlemech at velocity has momentum, measured in Newtons kg m/s^2
c. To stop a falling battlemech, all those newtons of energy must be transferred.

Aha! The energy doesn't get to vanish or disappear!

It has to go somewhere!

And a 'mech has legs, which flex and bend through myomer action. And flexing and bending anything is achieved by pushing energy through the system. And when they flex and bend the energy must escape the system--and can do this through heat, sound, radiation or kinetic transfer.

However, there's a catch... any system has a maximum potential of energy it can bear before it collapses--it can only expel the energy at up to x rate... and beyond that, the system gives.

The energy must exit!

And when the system gives, it breaks. In the case of legs, they snap. And when legs snap... the robot takes catastrophic damage.

So, pray tell, where is all that energy going to go if the legs do not take damage? There's only one other possibility... and that's to transfer in the ground which transfers back into the 'mech and alas, I'm sad to inform you, that gives us 'mech pogo sticks, hopping through the battlefield like Tigger... robots that cannot stop.

So I suppose we should welcome farcewarrior™ Online, because that's where the game would be headed.

Unless you can come up with a better idea?

Sir Isaac Newton is desperately waiting for an answer...

[L3mming2]

Sader325, on 15 June 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

You're right. Expect you are forgetting something.

The designers gave you enough jump jet fuel to both jump jet high, and then expend the rest of your fuel to land safely.

By your logic, helicopters should be given fuel only for flying, and none for landing.

funny thing a helicopter douse not need fuel to land, it can come down using auto rotation with its engine turned of...

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Autorotation

[Felio]

Because being able to leap up a cliff is useful even if you can't fall down from one.

[Pariah Devalis]

L3mming2, on 15 June 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

funny thing a helicopter douse not need fuel to land, it can come down using auto rotation with its engine turned of...

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Autorotation

Can confirm.

Source: I've done it several times myself, and it is fun as hell.

However, it isn't exactly an ideal situation to be in, either, and in a real life auto there is a good chance the aircraft will be damaged to some extent on landing. Be that just overextension of the skids, excessive shoe wear, or even chopping the empennage off.



Assuming you don't muck up the entry in the first place, lose too much rotor RPM, and turn your blades into modern art before falling like a brick. Hey, at least you'll save money on your funeral by digging your own grave.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 June 2016 - 04:39 PM.