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Heat In Mwo


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#21 smokytehbear

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 06:57 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 20 June 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

Where'd you find the map heat info?

Testing?


Actually for this one I have to thank PGI. Without having found this forum post, I would have totally given up.

http://mwomercs.com/...aps-heat-index/

I confirmed most of these. Specifically I know that Canyon Network, River City, Terra Therma, Tourmaline Desert, Vitric Forge, Polar Highlands, Grim Plexus, Grim Portico, Forest Colony, Frozen City, HPG Manifold, and both calderas are as stated in the guide. I felt this was sufficient enough to trust the rest of the numbers given.

All of these initial tests were done in Testing Grounds. There's a rumor going around that there are bugs for testing grounds and that the regular game uses different mechanics. I tested on Frozen City and Canyon Network in real games and found the data matched. The only difference I noted was that the frames/% rate that heat went down was more varied and had more error. The average came out the same as testing grounds, but I chalked up this slight discrepancy to latency, as I'm 99% positive heat calculations are handled ont he server side and now there were more mechs, causing some slow down from traffic.

TL;DR:
Yes. These are from testing and from the extremely helpful post from PGI.

#22 Mycrus

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:04 PM

View Postsmokytehbear, on 20 June 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Ever wanted to know how heat really works in MWO?

Still think that Tourmaline Desert is the hottest quickplay map? Still think that Heat Containment really boosts your mech's heat capacity by 10%?

No matter your question, it's answered here:
http://steamcommunit...s/?id=686548357


All collaborators and creators of programs like Smurfy's mechlab and such, please contact me if you want access to my enormous excel sheets. I won't be posting them for general public edit but I'll make them available to people who want to verify the data and use it for their own programs.


so any general tips...

i'm not much for just science... I want applied science...

#23 Mcgral18

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:06 PM

View PostMycrus, on 20 June 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:


so any general tips...

i'm not much for just science... I want applied science...


It's hot in the Volcanos, but the Terra lower platform is cooler than the outer ring

#24 Mycrus

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:08 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 20 June 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:


It's hot in the Volcanos, but the Terra lower platform is cooler than the outer ring


really?! whoa... mind blown...

#25 smokytehbear

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:08 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 20 June 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:


It's hot in the Volcanos, but the Terra lower platform is cooler than the outer ring


Which basically just echoes the old wisdom anyway: "Don't stop in the doorway!" XD

#26 Xetelian

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:25 PM

Wow!

This is huge, I had no idea that you only get 6 total capacity from an elite x2 skill.

#27 Spheroid

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:46 PM

@Wanderer: I don't think 5+5+10 triggers ghost heat. On caustic a single LRM10 takes me to 11% using a 10 DHS Kintaro. 5+5+10 took me to 16% which is what you would roughly expect from doubling the base weapon heat from four to eight.

Since the background heat is 5%, the doubled heat matched the doubled heat capacity usage. Two to six extra heat on the heat gauge would be very noticeable beyond the 16% reading, effectively an extra LRM5 of ghostheat per launcher.

This was an extremely crude test though, I don't have a discrete videocard at the moment and the fps was single digits.

Edited by Spheroid, 20 June 2016 - 07:56 PM.


#28 Cementi

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 10:12 PM

Thank you very much for this.... I learned alot from this. At least as much as my brain could understand the math heh.

#29 627

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 10:19 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 20 June 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

Where'd you find the map heat info?

Testing?


I did a while ago:

Heat Analysis
Link to heat analysis


Basically there are cold, normal and hot maps, with some special areas and mordor with its own setting but that is it.

Edited by 627, 20 June 2016 - 10:20 PM.


#30 smokytehbear

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:26 AM

View PostCementi, on 20 June 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

Thank you very much for this.... I learned alot from this. At least as much as my brain could understand the math heh.


Going for everyone else interested as well, If you're missing something in particular let me know. Wouldn't mind hopping on TS or Gamevox or something similar and walking people through anything they're not fully understanding. In my other life I am actually fairly decent at interactively working with people through concepts with a whiteboard. The whole paper/presentation writing thing isn't my preferred style it's just what's most practical for this occasion, so I make due with my subpar experience. XD

View Post627, on 20 June 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:


I did a while ago:

Heat Analysis
Link to heat analysis


Basically there are cold, normal and hot maps, with some special areas and mordor with its own setting but that is it.


Oh man, I wish I had seen this earlier, would have given me a decent head start and saved me from banging my head against the wall. Looks like we both stumbled on the TT inner ring thing independently. I guess the rationalization I came up with for it was that it's "shielded" from the lava below by the big disc whereas the outer ring has holes in the floor. Idk man.

Sick guide though, if you see something amiss in my own stuff please let me know and we can figure out the discrepancy. That part also goes for anyone reading. My goal is just to cover literally anything anyone could want to know about how heat works in this game all in one place.

#31 Egg Fu

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 01:39 AM

Great job and after spending quite a while reading your explanatory I added it to my bookmarks for further study.

I have a good bit more respect for PGI now as well due to their vigilance in combating the usefulness of macros as any sort of an unfair advantage.

Learned so much more about heat than ever before because of your hard work, smokytehbear. Thank you, sir!

#32 ColdPsyker1

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 05:21 AM

View Postsmokytehbear, on 20 June 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Ever wanted to know how heat really works in MWO?

Still think that Tourmaline Desert is the hottest quickplay map? Still think that Heat Containment really boosts your mech's heat capacity by 10%?

No matter your question, it's answered here:
http://steamcommunit...s/?id=686548357


All collaborators and creators of programs like Smurfy's mechlab and such, please contact me if you want access to my enormous excel sheets. I won't be posting them for general public edit but I'll make them available to people who want to verify the data and use it for their own programs.


Major freaking props for all that time and effort you put into making that!

Hell, I've been playing this game for 3-4 years now and I learned stuff reading that

#33 wanderer

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:14 AM

Quote

@Wanderer: I don't think 5+5+10 triggers ghost heat. On caustic a single LRM10 takes me to 11% using a 10 DHS Kintaro. 5+5+10 took me to 16% which is what you would roughly expect from doubling the base weapon heat from four to eight.


Hmm. Maybe I was doing one of the old big+5/big+5 layouts (like the old 15+5+15+5), It's a good thing to check.

#34 Belacose

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 11:39 AM

Thanks for the time and effort. Very helpful.

#35 smokytehbear

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 11:53 AM

Just a quick update everyone. I've been working with Li Song a bit over the last few weeks and am happy to say her excellent mechlab program now incorporates all of the information from the guide. It's the best mechlab program out there anyway, and now it's the only one that actually gives you completely correct heat information. I highly recommend downloading it.

Main thread for Li Song Mechlab:
http://mwomercs.com/...mechlab-20-rc1/

Main website:
http://emilybjoerk.github.io/lsml/


The guide has been updated with links to the program as well. Larger update concerning jump jets, a few clarification on ghost heat, and more accuracy on throttle effects coming soon.

#36 Koniving

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 02:40 PM

View Postsmokytehbear, on 20 June 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Running Cold: Edition 1.1

Ever wanted to know how heat really works in MWO?

Still think that Tourmaline Desert is the hottest quickplay map? Still think that Heat Containment really boosts your mech's heat capacity by 10%?

No matter your question, it's answered here:
http://steamcommunit...s/?id=686548357


All collaborators and creators of programs like Smurfy's mechlab and such, please contact me if you want access to my enormous excel sheets. I won't be posting them for general public edit but I'll make them available to people who want to verify the data and use it for their own programs.


I am thoroughly impressed. I came with the impression that I was going to see some broken understanding of the game.
Not only have I had the wrong impression and can validate what I've read so far, but I also see that something I posted a couple of months back where I had stated recent changes to Clan double heatsinks also made some significant changes which have ...slightly curbed the max alpha (heat) of the laser meta, which were "debunked" by several people spamming Smurfy and old data... my statements have been validated by the findings here. (Edit: Statements in said post were made by calculating heatsink dissipation and max threshold of IS versus Clan and making comparisons in an unquirked environment).

(Even one I had gained the suspicion of but had no way to prove it, the sub-0% we get in cooling on cold maps, has been validated here and I haven't mentioned it in 3 years.)

These details and values go a bit further and more accurate than Heat Simulator, where the math involved in figuring out the approximate values of heat, the maps, etc. was based on some equations I gave for figuring out threshold and dissipation some years back. (I didn't do all the work, the approximate percentage differences of the maps was all done by the author. He did ask for the equations though).

So.

I like you.
I'm gonna keep you in mind when I have the chance to run some thermal ideas by for a hypothetical Battletech game which I'll do videos of, showing what I as a Battletech fan really wanted to see out of Mechwarrior 5 / Mechwarrior Online.

Side note:
Here's a riddle for you:
Heat from an ER PPC sets approximately 30 meters of grassland on fire. A Battlemaster 1G, pure stock, steps into this fire and remains there for 10 or so seconds (Remaining there after arriving, for 1 full turn, before moving on the third turn). It absorbs 2 heat.
How hot in Fahrenheit is your best estimate for "2 units of heat" based on this information (plus anything else you can think of)? I know it is not genuinely possible to get a definitive answer but I really am curious.

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2016 - 02:47 PM.


#37 Koniving

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 03:14 PM

Continuing into this, I would like to take a moment to introduce another interesting factor that might interest you, Smokytehbear.

Flamer's rising temperature in the user has a name. "Heat Retainment." While this was used in regards to the heat climb for the enemy as well as the user, its unique traits as you've so eloquently pointed out only match what is done to the user of the Flamer, when considering the only other time I have ever seen or heard someone -- in development with a fondness for a certain magnum opus that was not well received -- referred to "Heat Retainment", when talking about medium lasers.

In an environment where the environment variable is 0.0, with an unquirked mech in 2013 and 10 heatsinks, the firing rate was such that despite a 4 second rate (fire 1 second beam, 3 second recharge, fire 1 second beam, 3 second recharge) where a mech with 10 SHS, then supposedly (but who knows now) 1/s dissipation and 10 threshold increase, on a mech with full basics only (so increased threshold and cooling)... TL;DR, on a mech where overheating with a single ML should be impossible... Firing continuously would eventually -- over the course of about 2 minutes -- cause the mech to overheat. Something that would be, should be, mathematically impossible.

I mentioned it once to this specific person whom is blatantly obvious but still cannot be mentioned. He passed it off with a knowledgeable tone and stated "That's Heat Retainment," followed by several unintelligible words and "attempt to quell rapid laser spam in CB."

I ask that you try it out. Known (or suspected) weapons it affects so far:
Medium lasers (all versions EXCEPT pulse).
Small lasers (all versions).
AC/2 (Believed to be debunked as false but hard to tell now with quirks and reductions to heat).

Note: While testing, akin to the Flamer, you cannot release the trigger until the heat retainment activates.

#38 Scout Derek

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Posted 09 July 2016 - 05:19 PM

I hope the sticky helped kept this thread alive!

#39 Ramshead

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 08:07 PM

thanks for the post!!

#40 smokytehbear

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Posted 22 August 2016 - 03:25 PM

Koniving, I had written a huge discourse on why I believe that mechs' fusion reactors actually operate somewhere near room temperature, but the forums ate it, so I'll repost a condensed version here.

There's too many unknowns to really get an accurate number per se. Just specific heat capacity and thermal conductivity alone could result in wildly different end numbers given a specific scenario like the ppc fire one you mentioned. There are some clues however that to me suggest a few things. There is of course the alternative possibility that PGI didn't put much thought into it and it's more just programmer ignorance than actual hints at canon facts, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Heat transfer always works from hot to cold. You can't thermodynamically go the other way. Even air conditioners or refrigerators, that essentially do this as a net effect, only do so by "heating up" the colder area before rejecting it to the hot area using compression and expansion to induce phase changes.

Now most heat cycles for power plants and engines don't require this. It's usually more efficient for the fluid medium in systems like a steam plant to actually be very hot, so your working temperatures are almost always well above your environment's, and passive transfer works just fine. The coolant gets hot from the exhaust heat from the reactor and steam plant, gets pumped to a nearby lake or something, and transfers the energy out through a heat exchanger before it goes back cold to receive more waste energy. So in terms of temperature: Reactor > Coolant > Environment

So there's a clue in MWO that this inequality isn't true, and it's through the Hellslinger. Most people will tell you that it's "insulated." Insulation just reduces the effectiveness of heat transfer though, which only works from hot to cold. If the reactor and coolant were hotter than the environment, this would always be a detriment to cooling, and in the game it's not. The fact that it helps you on warm maps, implies that your mech's operating temperature is actually below that map's temperature, and from an engineering perspective, none of the "hot" maps are actually that hot. Not anywhere close to what normal operating temperatures for conventional fission reactors and steam plants are anyway. The fact you can still cool at all implies that mechs all have refrigeration cycles in their exhaust systems. Which kind of makes sense, considering that again, places like Terra Therma really aren't that hot compared to what true interstellar pilots would face on just about any planet.

It's an important distinction though to include the Hellslinger and not just any mech, as any other mech could still be explained without refrigeration and insulation. A hotter environment like Terra Therma would always be harder to cool in than a cold one, even through just passive heat transfer. This is fairly intuitive, your coffee cools down a lot faster if you put it in the fridge than it would if left in a hot car. But the fact that the Hellslinger sees penalties in cold maps, and bonuses in hot maps, rather than just bonuses/penalties in both, strongly suggests that the operating temperature is being affected ambiently through passive heat transfer throughout the mech and not just at the exhaust point, and that the operating temperature of the coolant is somewhere in the range between those two.

Ultimately, I'd say the Hellslinger's mechanics strongly suggest a mech's (or at least the Hellslinger's) operating temperature is somehwere between the range of -10C (HPG Manifold) and 85C (Caustic Valley).

...I swear all this was said so much better the first time I tried posting this.





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