597 replies to this topic

[NeoThoR]

I DOMINATED Mechwarrior 4 and Mercs with a joystick... so whoever said they are not competitive is obviously wrong.

Now days though... maybe? I plan on trying a Nostromo. If the Nostromo doesn't work I'm going back to the ole joystick.

[Egomane]

Crescent Fresh, on 16 July 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

This might be debatable and the game isn't out yet, but mechs with 360 torso twist (like the Raven) will benefit from constant input.

360 torso twists are neither announced yet, nor are they canon. We do not know if PGI will implement this feature, that only one Battletech related game has shown so far. I for one wouldn't bet on it.

Harabeck, on 16 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Sorry, but I will believe that. When it comes to aiming your weapons, joystick is going to run into the exact same problem as control pads have versus mouse, even with the reduced pace of MWO.

You may believe that! I will not stop you from doing so. But my more then thirty years of gaming experience have shown me that joysticks are a very competetive solution and can hold their own against keyboard and mouse, as long as the game itself is not programmed to favor one over the other.

I have achieved very good times in racing games (the first few "Need for Speed"s or a few formula one simulators for example) with keyboards, with sticks and with steering wheels and pedals. Those games were very user friendly, as they prefered no input system over the other. Haven't touched this type of game in years, but from what I see in gaming magazines, they tend more and more towards input systems like the Xbox360 controller, while all other input options get neglected more and more.

I controled starfighters with a mouse in Freelancer to great success (but still found the game to be lacking, due to the lack of stick support) and with sticks in dozens of other games. Those were games that prefered stick control and realy sucked with keyboard and mouse. Ever tried to control one of the X games with a mouse? It's a pain! Sad that there are less and less space sims today, as publishers don't want to touch them with a ten lightyear pole, even though their fan bases are calling for it.

I played a few shooter and found them to be best played with mouse and keyboard, even if they had some sort of vehicles in them. Almost always were those games designed around that control scheme. I even played some shooter that had to be played with keyboard only. To play a shooter with a stick setup is suicidal. Keyboard has always been part of the control scheme for shooter games, the mouse has been added when the additional dimension of height began to play a role in them.

And then we have Mechwarrior and other mecha games. Those games have almost always been equally good in being controlled with sticks or with keyboard and mouse. Both control schemes are very good. There may be one or two games on either side of the argument that prefer one setup over the other, but overall I found them to be balanced between the two options.

So from my point of view it depends on the game and how it implements the different possible control schemes. If the game implements several controls as equal as possible, it comes down to the preference of the player. There is no such thing as a universaly superior gaming setup.

From everything I have read so far, we will get a game that will make no noticable difference between mouse and keyboard players and those that prefer joysticks. If M+K were supposed to be the primary input for the game, all those statements from the devs regarding joysticks, or even the announcment of the Artemis controller, which is designed for MWO, would have made no sense at all. At the same time PGI can't afford to not make M+K viable, because a large portion of the possible playerbase will be to young to have seen the era of the joystick and remember its greatness.

[Soulvoid]

Harabeck, on 16 July 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

I don't see what this has to do with joystick vs mouse. Both will have the same issue in that case. Whether your torso twisting is controlled by the mouse x-axis or the joystick's twist, there still doesn't seem to be a way to twist the arms in the opposite direction (as far as I can tell of course).


The advantage I perceive for mouse is more precise aiming.

The Arm reticule would be aimed with the Joystick, you can aim to the right while torso twisting to the left.... This can not be done with the mouse unless you are using a KB keybinding for the torso twist.

I think the thing most people are missing is this is NOT an FPS, its a bipedal war vehicle simulation with many axes and two tartget reticules available to the pilot (this can be seen in one of the dev commentary videos). The aiming speed is going to be set by the mech you are piloting, not by how fast you can move your mouse. Add in that the mechs are not really that agile or fast (even a supercharged light mech) and you will find that your percieved accuracy gain by using a mouse is a moot point due to the mech not being able to react at the speed of your reflexes. This means that the joystick user will most likely be just as accurate as you are while having a set of intuitive controls literally in his/her hand(s).

[X Man]

Steel Prophet, on 16 July 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I just don't get it... i always played Mechwarrior with a Joystick and never noticed any difference between my accuracy and that of a known mouse player. It all comes down to what you are used to.

That and skill, I can pinpoint my shots just as well with a joystick when compared to a mouse. In the old virtual world mech pods I was accurate enough to strip people of thier weapons rather then kill them.

[light487]

I was of course assuming, with my response, that people are using the left and right keys on the keyboard for turning the mech.. not torso twist. Torso twist with mouse is my preferred method EVEN WITH A JOYSTICK. The joystick for me only replaces the left and right turning of the legs, not the torso.. I've used that since MW2 and it feels very intuitive etc

Quote

This can not be done with the mouse unless you are using a KB keybinding for the torso twist.

In your reality.. sure.. not in mine Seriously though.. each to their own.. if it works for you great.. but it doesn't mean it is the ONLY way.

[Oy of MidWorld]

Soulvoid, on 16 July 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

The Arm reticule would be aimed with the Joystick, you can aim to the right while torso twisting to the left.... This can not be done with the mouse unless you are using a KB keybinding for the torso twist.

I highly doubt that that will be possible. The stick will move the torso. So mouse players will have no disadvantage. I'd however love the idea of setting my torso to a fixed position, if heavily damaged, and aim only the arms, within a much restricted area. Id set the torso with the sticks z-axis. A mouse player could just use keys, so everyone would be happy.

[Makaveli]

The way the Mech handles determines if the joystick is a handicap or not. My bet (and hope) is "NOT".

[StarfyrGuns]

light487, on 16 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I was of course assuming, with my response, that people are using the left and right keys on the keyboard for turning the mech.. not torso twist. Torso twist with mouse is my preferred method EVEN WITH A JOYSTICK. The joystick for me only replaces the left and right turning of the legs, not the torso.. I've used that since MW2 and it feels very intuitive etc



In your reality.. sure.. not in mine Seriously though.. each to their own.. if it works for you great.. but it doesn't mean it is the ONLY way.

Me as well...works fantastic. Our entire clan in MW4 were mouse&stick users and had some of the best pilots in there.

[light487]

Egomane, on 16 July 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

because a large portion of the possible playerbase will be to young to have seen the era of the joystick and remember its greatness.

I agree with a lot of what you said about the OTHER games. Certainly a joystick for racing games.. certainly a joystick for flight/space games. As for Mech games.. joystick+mouse seems, to me, to be the best of both worlds combined.. the fluidity of the flight stick for movement and gradual turning motions married with the precise, pixel-by-pixel accuracy of the mouse.

[Sighard Aglachad]

EddieDaHead, on 16 July 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

if mouse and KB are so superior, why don't we drive tanks, cars, fighter jets, cranes, or forklifts ?

Nobody here is saying mouse and keyboard are better for every single application out there. The thread is specific to MWO and MWO only. And this thread is nothing but speculation anyway unless half of the people here are in the beta and breaking NDA. Until I see for myself how the different control schemes work I'm not going to make any assumptions.

[Kamel]

People are going to use what they're comfortable with. Simmers will use joysticks. Twitch kiddies will use mouse and keyboard. Simple as that.

and neither will ever see each others point of view. ;-)

[Egomane]

light487, on 16 July 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

I agree with a lot of what you said about the OTHER games. Certainly a joystick for racing games.. certainly a joystick for flight/space games. As for Mech games.. joystick+mouse seems, to me, to be the best of both worlds combined.. the fluidity of the flight stick for movement and gradual turning motions married with the precise, pixel-by-pixel accuracy of the mouse.

As I have said, I see mouse and stick as equal options. So naturaly a combination of both is also a possibility and I can see the advantage in combining the two. But for me it is to late to re-learn, so I will stick with the stick only.

As I have never faced a player who used stick and mouse at the same time I am very excited to get the possibility to meet one on the battlefield now, for it will widen my understanding of the gaming environment as a whole.

[Hellya]

Okay this is my take on this. If we as the human race live past our impending death wish, we will not pilot a mech with a joystick. All my logic says that by this time the hardware will be wired directly into your nerves system and manual controls may very well be obsolete.

Food for thought: http://www.catwalk.o...ate-robotic-arm

[OJ191]

Foxtrot Charlie, on 16 July 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

my choice is either this



or this



choices choice choices lol

The latter with the pedals from the former assuming they fit your feet decently.

[light487]

If I had all the money in the world.. I would have pedals for joystick for turning legs, pedals for torso (I know right...) and headset tracking for arms/aiming..

but I don't.. so I have joystick for turning and mouse for aiming.. and torso twist is coupled with the aiming..

[Romulus Stahl]

ollo, on 16 July 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

IIRC the mechwarrior didn't use the joystick to aim really, it was more mind-controlled via the neurohelmet (perhaps a little eye-tracking thrown in for good measure?), but i may be completely wrong. For me, a joystick would be much less immersive than a mouse, because my eye-hand-coordination works that way -> ergo neurohelmet.

..plus joystick sucks for anything other than flight sims. Perhaps i'd use it for a LAM...

Pick up a copy of FASA MechWarrior RPG, come back after you've read it and looked at the drawings.
In your world the pods would have been much easier to build, mouse and keyboard, very immersive,

Edited by Romulus Stahl, 16 July 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Romulus Stahl]

Hellya, on 16 July 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Okay this is my take on this. If we as the human race live past our impending death wish, we will not pilot a mech with a joystick. All my logic says that by this time the hardware will be wired directly into your nerves system and manual controls may very well be obsolete.

Food for thought: http://www.catwalk.o...ate-robotic-arm

It has become obvious to me that a large portion of the population of this forum has never read any of the info on the BT/MW universe. While vat borns are pre wired to a large degree your logic does not apply.

[bakon]

This may have been mentioned before or asked, there is a lot of pages and I skimmed just through the bulk. But wouldn't piloting a Mech be like driving a tank ? If so if they set up the control scheme like WoT(World of Tanks) It should be rather easy . Right?

Edited by bakon, 16 July 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[FiveDigits]

bakon, on 16 July 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

This may have been mentioned before or asked, there is a lot of pages and I skimmed just through the bulk. But wouldn't piloting a Mech be like driving a tank ? If so if they set up the control scheme like WoT(World of Tanks) It should be rather easy . Right?

This is partially true. 'Mechs with only torso-mounted weapons would control just like a tank. The torso twist would be the same as rotating a tank's turret.
Most 'mechs have another degree of freedom - moving the arms. The way it seems to be implemented right now, the difference is miniscule though. When using the mouse to aim the arms will perform their maximum deflection and then the torso starts twisting - a bit like a tank destroyer gun mount mounted on top of a tank turret.

[Hellya]

Romulus Stahl, on 16 July 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

It has become obvious to me that a large portion of the population of this forum has never read any of the info on the BT/MW universe. While vat borns are pre wired to a large degree your logic does not apply.

What in the blue blazes are you raging about?

That post has nothing to do with BT/MW universe. Not once did I mention either, I am not trying to role play. Logic says yes it works like this, sorry if reality makes you feel butt hurt.