597 replies to this topic

[Randodan]

I wish I had a nice HOTAS setup like I used to in my flightsim days. I would love to use it with MWO like I did with the old MW titles of yesteryear.

[Jman5]

Thontor, on 12 November 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Of course, in a real vehicle a mouse would not be the ideal control input.. An actual vehicle would not be stable enough for it... The slightest movement would move your arm and thus the mouse greatly since its not really attached to anything. Which would in turn create more movement, which would throw your control off even more...

That's why a joystick works better in a vehicle, since its attached, its much easier to keep stable.

But, most computer desks are pretty stable... So a mouse works much better

That's an interesting point I had not thought of. I suppose you could design a mouse/pad in a way that locks it to the table so it can't be lifted up and only slides along a single axis. You could also have some unlock button that activates when your palm presses down on the mouse. However, if you're talking about a UAV, your pilot and controls are situated somewhere comfortably in Nevada. You don't have to worry about the mouse going all over the place while you're performing a barrel-roll.

[Clan Warrior]

With regard to MWO it's not mouse or joystick in this case. It's all about good software engineering support for mouse and keyboard. You could not play WM2 or WM3 or even WM4 like that. Yet you can play MWO with mouse and KB and not just play but really play well with mouse and kb. Kudos to Piranha Games software engineers for making it happened.

Once they get to joystick controllers they can program it to work just as well as mouse and kb works.

P.S. Hookup your mouse to a 110 volt or 220 outlet depending where you live and see if you can control voltage just as well. No don't do that! Sorry for been sarcastic but, people think that mouse is like some kind of magical wand you connect it and magic happens.

Edited by Clan Warrior, 12 November 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[coolnames]

Riffleman, on 16 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

What happened to playing a game for fun over the last 10 years?

Multiplayer's popularity grew, and competitiveness as well.

[Randodan]

Just consider that a tank has a control stick for the turret rotation and gun control as well. The notion that 'Mechs are walking tanks would suggest that a Throttle and Stick analog setup should be the best choice.

[Penance]

Darkstang, on 12 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

I really want to get back to the HOTAS for a game like this. Will it be better than a mouse and keyboard? Well, MWO is pretty simple to control, so there may be some point to that. The controls are rather limited in the game so far and pretty much everything you need to do is within reach of one hand on the keyboard. Mouse buttons are not always in the greatest position though, so in complicated weapons groupings, you might need to define what you mean by mouse a bit more. A standard 3-button mouse will not be that great at managing heat loads. A good 5/6 button mouse would be much better, but all the buttons are not always as accessible in tense fights, this is where the joystick/throttle combination works better.

A real throttle will also blow the keyboard throttle away every time. A throttle becomes a part of you and you can feel and predict your speed with it. You can't do that pressing up/down buttons that control another indicator on the screen, at least without a glance now and then to see what you set it at, and that means you're thinking about the control, not the target.

Right now though, unless it's been fixed, the joystick interface is pretty bad, and the mouse/keyboard is the best way to go. There is no reason however, that a joystick configuration would not be equal to the mouse if it's properly implemented.

And the immersion is a thousand times better.

My contention is that a modern mouse like the Logitech G700 can more than accomodate people nowadays. you only need your left hand to accelerate, decelarate, and turn (WASD), possibly press the weapon group numbers.

This mouse has 4 buttons on the side which i have programmed to weapon groups 3,4,5,6. RMB, LMB are 1 and 2. Anything else beyond this is overkill. I'm totally for joystick support, as who knows, maybe one day I'll want to hook-up my old MS sidewinder. Right now though, I personally feel that there are so many things that the game needs before joystick support. Sure, it will add to the fun of the game, but the point is, it's not an uber priority.

Let's get some more maps, a few more modes, and mechs and working tech before we worry about getting joysticks to work.

[GioAvanti]

ollo, on 16 July 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

IIRC the mechwarrior didn't use the joystick to aim really, it was more mind-controlled via the neurohelmet (perhaps a little eye-tracking thrown in for good measure?), but i may be completely wrong. For me, a joystick would be much less immersive than a mouse, because my eye-hand-coordination works that way -> ergo neurohelmet.

..plus joystick sucks for anything other than flight sims. Perhaps i'd use it for a LAM...

They used joysticks bro... no mind control. The neuro helmets helped with physical combat, balance and *flinch* instincts.

[GioAvanti]

Jman5, on 12 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

What? I can move twist, and track my target with a mouse and keyboard much better than I can with a joystick. Say a target is circle strafing me counterclockwise. I'll hold down the "A" key to move counterclockwise, I'll seemlessly use my mouse to twist my torso and track as needed. I don't know how you got the impression that you could not do this stuff simultaneously with a m/kb. It's completely fluid and natural.


I hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of adults on here who played around with joystick controls plenty and found the m/kb control scheme superior. Hell, even with kids just look at the controllers for their consoles. Dual joystick movement and aiming system. They may not have that twist mechanism, but otherwise it's identical in concept. The younger generation is more used to joysticks than the ones who grew up with restrictive D-pads on their sega genesis and nintendo.


First of all it's important to recognize two things.
1. The mouse and keyboard is relatively new. Many airplanes still in operation were designed in the 70s and 80s. On top of that it would be extremely difficult and expensive to completely up-end an entire industry's control scheme. Millions of dollars would have to be spent changing and training pilots.

2. the twitch advantage a mouse/kb design has is largely unnecessary for today's airplanes. A 747 doesn't depend on microsecond faster reaction. Even military aircraft aren't finding themselves in close up dog-fight anymore where a slight advantage like this would be the difference between life and death. Instead they drop their bombs or fire their missiles from 50 miles away and never even see their target.

That said, I read about an interesting demo of a Chinese UAV that did use the mouse/keyboard control scheme. So it's possible we might see a shift over the coming decades.



The only way we can prove this one way or another is with data between m/kb and joystick users. Your claim is pretty unsubstantiated. I can't think of a single thing a joystick can do better and faster than a m/kb set up.

The only thing a mouse could have over a joystick is fine targeting control... everything else is possible on a joystick (torso swivel, arm movement, throttle etc etc). Now just a thought here.... this was pissible with a cheap joystick; I'm betting there are sensitive joysticks that out perform m/kb. Do I want to pay for them? Hmmm not really.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Multiplayer and PvP is always about max performance/profit. Singleplayer is where it's not. But joysticks have basically been phased out. They may be fun, but they were never actually competitive nor ever will be.

[ChaosEngine]

Bluten, on 12 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

They may be fun, but they were never actually competitive nor ever will be.

First: this may be true for you I won't argue about that,
but I don't think that statement holds true for everybody.

Second: its only a matter of implementation, I am sure if PGI would really want to
it may even be possible for joystick to be superior to mouse control.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want joysticks/hotas to be superior.
All I want is both input devices on the same level of competitiveness.

[Mr B]

Well, for right now, there isn't anything to talk about really. The game is still Beta, so things may change, but right now, us stick players are getting shafted. Movement rates are slower with the stick then with the mouse, the only axis that follows the stick movement is the throttle, everything else in none self centering, and you have to keep realigning. Nothing about the stick controls are intuitive as of now, and that sucks. I'm currently not playing as a result. Untill they fix the sticks, it's simply not fun, and even if it's beta, i'm supposed to enjoy my self.
B!

[Secundus]

I just hold my Yen Lo Wang while I play.

[Corvus Antaka]

Well the funniest part is the people who think joysticks are less accurate.

Tell that to an F16 pilot.

A good joystick setup & if this game supported it well would be equal or even superior to a mouse/keyboard combo.

[Lightfoot]

Quote

Bluten, on 12 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Multiplayer and PvP is always about max performance/profit. Singleplayer is where it's not. But joysticks have basically been phased out. They may be fun, but they were never actually competitive nor ever will be.

Even with the lack of Analog Turning I am often tops in the team stats with my $40 dollar joystick (I don't use missiles). Without Analog Turning the reticle moves across the screen in one inch increments so this is not easy, but why then do I turn in such good numbers with a joystick? Because the joystick will always out-perform the mouse keyboard in response to developments within a battle. A joystick frees your concentration from piloting and allows you to pilot more strategically at the same time.

No one currently playing MWO knows what a joystick can really do in MWO because MWO does not have Analog Turning, which is how you AIM with a joystick. Once Analog Turning is added I expect to see most players switch to a Joystick like they did in MW2-MW4. Given a working choice, Joystick is the natural one.

By the way PGI, you are missing out on the large group of new players who would easily learn to play MWO with a Joystick and love playing MWO with a Joystick as well as players of previous MechWarrior titles who won't play MWO without a Joystick. Just saying, adding good joystick support will add to the playerbase more than you think it will.

Edited by Lightfoot, 02 December 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[Lt Memnoch]

Riffleman, on 16 July 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Mabye next to your win/loss ratio they should have a little picture of a mouse or joystick, so when people go to laugh at your score, they can instead say "oh hey well thats not too bad for handicapping yourself with a joystick"

Joysticks.

Mechwarrior hard mode.

I don't think I'll be playing MWO, though it is interesting.

I played league team play back in the DOS MW2: Netmech days, and still have the all-metal Thrustmaster rudder pedal assembly (heavy sucker) and FLCS-16 stick, and TQS. As for being beat by someone with a mouse, back then when the graphics sucked but the gameplay was better than ANY BattleTech game since, I could COD any of you and take a leg off in under 1 minute, and you'd never hit me. Then I'd run out of range and hit you with a LRM rack alpha strike, and watch you explode.

Mouse may be the best way now, but mouse would have been the one getting killed when Jade Falcon dropped to contest a planet against your mouse-using wannabe team.

And I'm just picking on ya, but by all means flame on.

Edited by Lt Memnoch, 10 December 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Riffleman, on 16 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Had an arguement with someone on another website about the game. Said things like joysticks will never be competative, a mouse is far superior for pinpoint attacks like torsos and legs. Just tore into joysticks in a long tirade like I and everyone else planning on using a joystick had NO idea they were inferior.

Remember the days before killstreaks, headshots, quickscoping, e-sports, constant min maxing, premade vs pug beatdowns, kill/death and win/loss ratios?

What happened to playing a game for fun over the last 10 years?

When did playing a game as a fun simulator become an everything rides on your performance stress fest.

The way I see it, if you like Joysticks or Gamepads, have at it. Who is anyone to tell someone else how to control the game? The game itself just needs to accommodate as wide an array of input devices as possible.

Before I played this game, I used Joysticks from MW3 to MW4. I thought I was going to do likewise; but instead tried my mouse and keyboard, and could not imagine going back. The current input system leaves a LOT to be desired (as I'm sure it does for Joystick/Gamepad users too), but hopefully in time it will allow the functionality we want.

Arguing about what input type is 'best' just sounds like people stroking their ego; there's no answer to that question; it is subjective. Forcing a person to play with an input type they are not familiar with just means they are not maximizing their presence in the game.

[Superslicks]

Hotas wathog all the way, nothing even comes close

[Jadel Blade]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 02 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Well the funniest part is the people who think joysticks are less accurate.

Tell that to an F16 pilot.

A good joystick setup & if this game supported it well would be equal or even superior to a mouse/keyboard combo.

Lol no. Very very no.

If an F16 had a free floating cursor for a aiming reticule then they would aim it with a mouse or eye tracking or something better. There's no way a stick can control mwo as well as a mouse with the current aiming setup and since they are not going to change the entire implementation it never will.

[Ow Chi]

I have been flip flopping on using my X52 with MWO but it looks like it still may be possible. Question for those using the X52: are you using custom profiles or just assigning the keys in game?

Still not really sure about the best config, is rudder twist meant to turn the mech or twist the torso?

[Chaldon]

Lightfoot, on 02 December 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

By the way PGI, you are missing out on the large group of new players who would easily learn to play MWO with a Joystick and love playing MWO with a Joystick as well as players of previous MechWarrior titles who won't play MWO without a Joystick. Just saying, adding good joystick support will add to the playerbase more than you think it will.

this needs to be requoted