110 replies to this topic

[Lehmund]

Ultimax, on 21 June 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

Don't worry guys, all the mechs are volumetrically accurate relative to one another!

This means everything is totally fine!

I really like the fact that PGI standardized the sizes of mechs based on their occupied volume to fit their tonnage. This is not "game balancing". It's uniformization moving forward. Changing movement profiles however ...

Just some math to illustrate how mechs can seem of the wrong size and why many lights got a size bump:

Imagine an identical volume shape, the box ( X by X by X ).

Say we have a 64 ton box, a 32 ton box and a 16 ton box.

Using simple math the 64 ton box would be 4 meters high assuming 1 cubic meter of box-material is 1 ton.
The 32 ton is half its tonnage but it would be 3.2 meters high, roughly 80% the height of the box twice its weight.
Now the 16 ton box is 2.5 meters high, a bit over 60% the height of the 64 ton box, which is 4 times heavier.

Now if we use mechs instead of boxes with similar profiles and shapes:
- is the Mist lynx (25 t) about 60% of a Kodiac's (100 t) height? I don't think so IMO but I didn't do a side by side... Lynxes are one fourth the weight....
- is the Jenner (35 t) over 80% of the height of that catapult (65 t), being more that half its weight? Looks like it, especially the catapult has some decent volume in its arm-pods...

Point is with these CORRECT scales, expect your lights to be larger than you are used to.

Play them for their attributes, which is usually speed and agility or agility and support equipment, because you can't hide under rocks anymore.

Just change your playstyle accordingly.

[Kmieciu]

DarthHias, on 21 June 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

I stand to my old promise. Everytime one of those Antilight s*ckers shows up, next time I play QP I will run nothing except Lights until I have killed at least 300 tons worth of Assaults.

I managed to score 3x100 ton solo kills once while piloting a 2xSRM2 Commando-3A. Cought a lance of 2 LRM King Crabs and a trial Direwolf. The Direwolf ragequit before I was finished with him, though. Could not stand the SRM2 machinegun :-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 21 June 2016 - 11:53 PM.

[Ghostrider0067]

DarthHias, on 21 June 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

You do realize that all Lights save for the Locust increased in size, some dramatically so?

No, admittedly, I had not. I'm not a light pilot and hadn't paid all that much mind. It just seems from the ones I've encountered that they're all a bit smaller than before. Maybe my mind is just playing tricks on me.

[C E Dwyer]

Ghostrider0067, on 21 June 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Lights are annoying but that's how they're supposed to be. I personally don't like the rescale as it's made them much smaller than they should be, but that's just my opinion. I'm sure those that favor lights are in heaven seeing how they're now more viable than they were previously.

Sarcasm right ?

[Lykaon]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Lights need to be "fixed" they shouldn't be viable as forward attacking elements. They are spotters, they are wolfpacks, they are cappers, they are not solo attackers that can run into groups and kill things and get out. That's gone on too long.

All lights are for the same thing always right?

The only suitable roles are to...

Spot for LRMs if their team even has any LURMs...if not then wasted mech slot on a light.

Cappers but,again wasted mech slot used on a light because SKIRMISH then SKIRMISH then SKIRMISH then assault on a tiny may so actually SKIRMISH again because even a Direwolf can cross the whole fricken map before a light mech caps a base Then of course it's time for another SKIRMISH!

Wolf pack? well since light mechs will be unneccisary baggage for their team because spotting is situationally based on a team having LRMs and capping is irrelivant most of the time because SKIRMISH! so few players will play Light Mechs that a Wolfpack of one is also IRRELIVANT.

So a light mech gives up weapon payload and armor value for what now? being mostly a waste of space on a team because as I said

Spotting isn't always needed and exposes the lowest armored mechs to the highest volume of firepower (sticking your neck out praying your team is A paying attention B actually has LRMs and C had the forthought to manuver into range to take advantage of your spotting...no thanks that sounds like a lot of suicidal activity for a whole lot of maybe.)

Capping is mostly not even a part of the game mode in quick play because it's an endless cycle of skirmishes briefly interrupted by another game mode that will also be played as a skirmish like domination or conquest or assault on a tiny map.

Most of the games rewards are geared towards dealing damage and getting kills. You will earn more from fighting than nauncing around "spotting" or "capping" So essentially light mechs are for poor men to pilot while remaining poor.

And when was the last time in a quick play match anyone was honestly supprised by where the enemy was located? Pretty much never because anyone who pays the slightest attention knows the point of contact on any given map is almost always the same exact spot it was the previous thousand times. AKA. RECON is a worthless role.

Yep I agree that one quarter of the mech classes having on average composing less than 10% of the players in queue has gone on far to long...I am sure we can get those numbers down even lower by further mitigating the the effectivness of piloting the least used class of mech in the game.

Edited by Lykaon, 22 June 2016 - 12:41 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

All hail the Locust Overlord

[Darth Futuza]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Of course I expect all the light pilots to chirp in with their rhetoric about how the light chassis should be a viable solo attack element. Does that sound a s stupid hearing it as it sounds saying it? Just wondering.

Regardless, having lights capable of taking out assaults in 1v1 is absurd. Its absurd and its absurd to suggest a light should be viable vs a heavy or an assault on a regular basis. Lights regularly engage in this not due to some kind of elite "skill" but rather more so from taking advantage of exploits inherent to the game.

PGI m,ay not be able to fix the inherent exploits in the game but they sure can level things by making you sloppy and fat. ROFLSAUCE!!!

Light > Assault & Heavy
Assault > Heavy & Medium
Heavy > Medium
Medium > Light
Is basically how the 1 v 1 match up usually goes. However...

Team coordination > All mechs.

[Lykaon]

Poundcake, on 21 June 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Of course I expect all the light pilots to chirp in with their rhetoric about how the light chassis should be a viable solo attack element. Does that sound a s stupid hearing it as it sounds saying it? Just wondering.

Regardless, having lights capable of taking out assaults in 1v1 is absurd. Its absurd and its absurd to suggest a light should be viable vs a heavy or an assault on a regular basis. Lights regularly engage in this not due to some kind of elite "skill" but rather more so from taking advantage of exploits inherent to the game.

PGI m,ay not be able to fix the inherent exploits in the game but they sure can level things by making you sloppy and fat. ROFLSAUCE!!!

So your're an assault mech pilot who can't be bother to learn how to pilot defensively ? Is that it?

You can't be bothered to learn to reverse direction and counter steer against a circling light mech

You can't be bothered to learn to pay attention and become aware of potential ambush spots and be prepared.

You can't be bothered to learn to hit targets that are not the size of five buses and/or moving with the speed and agility of a cinderblock on a rollerskate.

You can't be bothered to use terrain to cover vulnerable armor location (back to a wall and force the light approach from your firing arc)

You can't be bothered to pay attention to when the match is starting and you don't even move until the match is at minute 4.

You can't be bothered to select secondary weapons for point defense because your KDK 3 or Direwolf needs ALL the UACS and ammo that can fit on it and screw point defense.After all an assault mech should be invulnearble to light mechs right? There should be no trade off for nigh unto absurd levels of damage output right? Only light mechs should be compromised right?

You have never seen how difficult it is to do with a light what you seem to think is a simple super easy task.


When I do pilot a light mech and if I do take down an assault one v one it is always because of one or more of the following.

The assault pilot was unskilled at defense.<--- pilot error

The assault pilot was a terrible shot.<---pilot error

The assault pilot panicked <--- pilot error

The assault mech was unequiped to fight me in a furball fight (LRM boat) <---bad team work to not cover vulnerable mechs

The reason I win this 1 v 1 is the assault mech pilot is less skilled and as such should lose or the assault mech's team has failed to give adiquate cover and support to protect the vulnerable target and as such deserve to lose a mech for this failing.

Just because you may get your but kicked by light mechs it can't be any failing in your ability it must be that light mechs are over powered not that your piloting skills are lacking right?

I will gladly tell you that it is your lack of adaptability that is making you lose to light mechs 1 v 1 because when I pilot assault mechs I rarely lose to a single light mech ever. I either destroy them or they disengage.

And when I do lose it's because I failed not because the light mech was over powered or cheating.

Edited by Lykaon, 22 June 2016 - 01:14 AM.

[FalconerGray]

oldradagast, on 21 June 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Nope. You can't expect "somebody else" to play the dull, barely combat viable mech. Who wants to run around pressing "R" or stand in a circle all day vs. actually fighting? I know - "somebody else" - as is the eternal response to claims that Lights should be lousy in combat but given boring, vital roles to play.

This is not tabletop or a PvE game with NPC's scouts. Both sides bring 12 mechs - no more, no less - to the battlefield, and combat is the top priority and fun thing to do in the game for nearly the entire population. Therefore, all mechs must be about equally combat viable or they have no reason to exist in this type of game.

I spent my first dozen games playing sneaky spotter in a Raven 3L, trying to give my team as much intel about enemy positions, what sort of mechs they were, what loadouts they had.....and then I realized it's completely and utterly pointless in MWO.

I agree that for the majority of the class, solo striker should not be the go-to option, but this problem doesn't exist because they're too strong, it exists because in this game, there is literally no point in doing anything else.

[Random Carnage]

I Zeratul I, on 21 June 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

You really should learn a little about wars & world history before commenting.

As should you, apparently. What do you think will happen if a Humvee takes on an Abrams?

[Lykaon]

Lehmund, on 21 June 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

I really like the fact that PGI standardized the sizes of mechs based on their occupied volume to fit their tonnage. This is not "game balancing". It's uniformization moving forward. Changing movement profiles however ...

Just some math to illustrate how mechs can seem of the wrong size and why many lights got a size bump:

Imagine an identical volume shape, the box ( X by X by X ).

Say we have a 64 ton box, a 32 ton box and a 16 ton box.

Using simple math the 64 ton box would be 4 meters high assuming 1 cubic meter of box-material is 1 ton.
The 32 ton is half its tonnage but it would be 3.2 meters high, roughly 80% the height of the box twice its weight.
Now the 16 ton box is 2.5 meters high, a bit over 60% the height of the 64 ton box, which is 4 times heavier.

Now if we use mechs instead of boxes with similar profiles and shapes:
- is the Mist lynx (25 t) about 60% of a Kodiac's (100 t) height? I don't think so IMO but I didn't do a side by side... Lynxes are one fourth the weight....
- is the Jenner (35 t) over 80% of the height of that catapult (65 t), being more that half its weight? Looks like it, especially the catapult has some decent volume in its arm-pods...

Point is with these CORRECT scales, expect your lights to be larger than you are used to.

Play them for their attributes, which is usually speed and agility or agility and support equipment, because you can't hide under rocks anymore.

Just change your playstyle accordingly.

This approach makes more sense if volume of size also equates value of health. A Jenner may be 80% the volume of a Catapult but does the Jenner have 80% of the armor and structure values?

The 65 ton chassis has 42 structure value and 84 armor potential value

While 35 tons has 22 structure and 44 potential armor value.

Around half the defensive values for 80% of the volume?

Of course there is speed to consider.

with average speeds of each class (heavy vs light) the light mechs are around double the speed. It is difficult to quantify how much speed plays in defense since much of that is based upon player ability.

There is a distinct advantage of evasion over absorption.

Everyone runs out of armor eventually the enemy will never run out of missing.

[Lykaon]

Random Carnage, on 22 June 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

As should you, apparently. What do you think will happen if a Humvee takes on an Abrams?

Is the Humvee armed with an anti tank TOW missile? Because honestly the Tank crew does fear this eventuallity because the Humvee is a small fast moving target with a relativley small target profile that mounts a weapon that can potentially kill the tank crew with one well placed hit.

Or how about an anti tank infantry team? just a couple of doods with no armor and a top speed of around 3 MPH but they have FGM 148 Javelin?

Yes the tank crew does fear this because it can kill them.

Edited by Lykaon, 22 June 2016 - 01:31 AM.

[Abner Osis]

Predicting that Oxides and Jenner-IICs will still end up with high or near top damage in tournament play and that good pilots will still put out good damage in any of the viable lights.

Re-scale will probably just end up limiting people who think it is a skill to drive a 'Mech like they are having a seizure while tiny hit boxes and latency keep them alive.

[Random Carnage]

Lykaon, on 22 June 2016 - 01:30 AM, said:

Is the Humvee armed with an anti tank TOW missile? Because honestly the Tank crew does fear this eventuallity because the Humvee is a small fast moving target with a relativley small target profile that mounts a weapon that can potentially kill the tank crew with one well placed hit.

Or how about an anti tank infantry team? just a couple of doods with no armor and a top speed of around 3 MPH but they have FGM 148 Javelin?

Yes the tank crew does fear this because it can kill them.

You're cherry picking. In any argument, there will likely be exceptions to the rule. The reality, however, is that in most such encounters, the Humvee would have a hell of a lot more to be afraid of than the Main battle tank. In MWO, that just isn't the case.

[dario03]

Eindridi, on 22 June 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

Predicting that Oxides and Jenner-IICs will still end up with high or near top damage in tournament play and that good pilots will still put out good damage in any of the viable lights.

Re-scale will probably just end up limiting people who think it is a skill to drive a 'Mech like they are having a seizure while tiny hit boxes and latency keep them alive.

With enough matches I'm sure I could post up plenty of good scores in any mech in the game. But that doesn't mean all of the mechs are equal or even close to it.

[Ghogiel]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 21 June 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

Someone that enjoys a play style other than "Charge kill repeat"......Just b/c you don't want lights to be spotters and info gatherers doesn't mean others don't.

Inb4 "but why can't I have what I want, aka lights to be good at fighting".....well the difference is someone that wants to be an invisible scout or spotter can only choose a light (maybe a small medium)....they can't hop in an 90 ton mech and make do.

Therefore, why should the opposite end of the spectrum be able to hop in and do the assaults / heavy heavies job?

Or are you insinuating that this game should always and forever be literally nothing but a death match skirmish with no hope for more depth or variety?

B/c that's what allowing every mech to be good at killing gets you..... as we've seen for years.

Edit: I'm aware part of that is based on PGI not really giving us more things to focus on.... but only partially. The rest is small minded players that think every mech class deserves to be good at killing and refusing to play things if they aren't / spreading their opinion with venom at anyone that they disagree with.

You'd have a point, except for the fact all the game is is TDM, and that PGI knows best and that's all we'll get. Secondly killing and doing dmg is how the game rewards players. Telling a class of mechs to be relegated to an irrelevent role is bad for the class. Thirdly, lights were never as good as heavies or assualts at killing mechs.

[adamts01]

Darth Futuza, on 22 June 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

Light > Assault & Heavy
Assault > Heavy & Medium
Heavy > Medium
Medium > Light
Is basically how the 1 v 1 match up usually goes. However...

Team coordination > All mechs.

That's not it though. Assuming both pilots are equal in skill and have similar load-outs (brawler v brawler or sniper v sniper), the bigger mech wins. If it doesn't it's because of terrain, but that can be avoided if you know you're gong up against a more agile opponent.

[baropara]

I am mastering lights for last five month in general, started from clantech (where my opponents are from first 3 tiers) and now in IS hero, where I've started at bottom . I would point to obvious: less trained pilots give me their *** with love, old fangs are hard to get stabbed at all.
Cons 1:1 with medium and heavy - it depends much of what chasis is opposing you; While IS has more pinpoint capabilities in ballistic dept, clantech is vital bc of XL. From my POV lights are rare but powerfull class of _pilots, when encountered ace you feel pain because of people, not size*. Like Bf109 was great because trained pilots an mass. In no doubt they have Power in proper hands, but they don't stand against focus fire like medium or heavies. Assaults rock in some cases but weight\caliber is not only criteria at all.

*dont think Locust-thing should exist in current nomenclature, or it must be nerfed by heatsinks \ hard points. AS usual, PGI can't judge with common sence.

Edited by baropara, 22 June 2016 - 02:45 AM.

[Baelfire]

Random Carnage, on 22 June 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

You're cherry picking. In any argument, there will likely be exceptions to the rule. The reality, however, is that in most such encounters, the Humvee would have a hell of a lot more to be afraid of than the Main battle tank. In MWO, that just isn't the case.

Your example was very biased to begin with. A Humvee is not supposed to fight against tanks. The AH-64 Apache on the other hand is supposed to fight tanks, despite the fact that it weights not even 10% of an Abrams. A single infantery soldier with a bazooka weights even less, so weight is not necessarily a deciding factor.

Battlemechs, however, are supposed to fight each other, so light Mechs have to be combat viable. And considering that some light Mechs were designed to hunt down and destroy heavier Mechs, they should be able to kill Assaults 1vs1 under the right circumstances. Especially in a game where a fully equipped Firestarter-S (with modules) costs more than a fully equipped Stalker and where Mech Combat is the only real content.

Edited by Baelfire, 22 June 2016 - 02:54 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Baelfire, on 22 June 2016 - 02:44 AM, said:

Your example was very biased to begin with. A Humvee is not supposed to fight against tanks. The AH-64 Apache on the other hand is supposed to fight tanks, despite the fact that it weights not even 10% of an Abrams. A single infantery soldier with a bazooka weights even less, so weight is not necessarily a deciding factor.

Whole analogy is broken. Reality is that tanks don't often fight tanks and the biggest threat to tanks is universally smaller, faster targets who stay out of sight and shoot first. Be that attack choppers, TOW equipped technical or AT infantry.

Tanks vs tanks isn't ideal because you don't need a tank to kill a tank. Very inefficient to do so.