54 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

so would you prefer swapping hitboxes with the catapult?

[ ] yes
[ ] no

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 June 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Volumetric sizing kids... the pult is shorter sure, but its girth is greater. Put this another way...if they had used volume sizing math when they FIRST released the game, nobody would be complaining about height changes now. Stop thinking two-dimensionally...

[Lily from animove]

Probably Not, on 21 June 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Look at the Wolfhound and look at the Catapult and tell me that that looks right. I want you to honestly do that. The WLF is 2 size classes below the CPLT and the CPLT is just shy of twice it's weight in tons.

I know you want to sell Butterbees PGI but did you have to mess with the lights to do it? 1-888-COME-ON-NOW.

if you don't understand why the wlfhound i still better in hitboxes than the cata then well, not much to add, cata is still easy to take apart.

[Kalleballe]

Tell me what you think after looking at the scale reference chart esp from the side.
*I* think some smart *** thought it a good idea to zoom smaller mech in mechlab.

[Lily from animove]

Probably Not, on 21 June 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

You know, I really wouldn't begrudge the 'Pult pilots' newfound joy if it weren't for the fact that it makes the nerfing the Jack and WLF got (not even particularly strong or meta mechs by any stretch, mind you) really goddamn GLARING. And jenner pilots, jeez o'nazareth, they must really be suffering. Their CT was already a fire magnet.

thepoint was to unify mechs and their shapes and surfaces to suitable scales, and thats what the rescale did for some. further balanc estuff will surely be doen, and if you think a jenner who cna run fast compared to a adr or kfx didn't deserve to get bigger, well then you are missign objectivity.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 June 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[PraetorGix]

Dee Eight, on 21 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Volumetric sizing kids... the pult is shorter sure, but its girth is greater. Put this another way...if they had used volume sizing math when they FIRST released the game, nobody would be complaining about height changes now. Stop thinking two-dimensionally...

I know what you mean but remember, the patch notes told us that PGI used, among other things, "common sense" (or an empirical or practical method, do not recall exactly) which means that the lites should have gotten fatter maybe, but no way in hell taller. Think from the perspective of the mech fabricators, why would you make a light mech so tall it becomes a super easy target? If you have extra mass to allocate, you put it on its back or in its legs, I dunno, just not in its height. Practicalities and common sense were thrown out of the window for some lights.
Fu*k, Russ even told us in the town hall how they applied this very same logic to the Grasshoper, they made it fatter so it didn't get taller; why the heck couldn't they do the same with those poor lights?
I was so happy about the rescale, I cannot understand how they managed to get it wrong. They were using math formulas sure, but the numbers they got had more than one way to be implemented in the game.

[DemonRaziel]

Lily from animove, on 21 June 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

thepoint was to unify mechs and their shapes and surfaces to suitable scales, and thats what the rescale did for some. further balanc estuff will surely be doen

Soon ™? Once these nerfs are balanced in another way, they will stop being an issue. As it is now, they are nerfs

Lily from animove, on 21 June 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

, and if you think a jenner who cna run fast compared to a adr or kfx didn't deserve to get bigger, well then you are missign objectivity.

Well if we're looking at the speed to size ratio, then damn, poor Locust should have been Gigantic But Panther, on the other hand, isn't much of a sprinter. Or if we're looking at hardpoints, then the Spider should be super tiny.

Volumetric sizing all over the board is flawed, when there's no particular reason why all the 'Mechs should have the same density and it throws the balance out of the window.

Oh and let's not forget movement archtype changes

[Lily from animove]

Probably Not, on 21 June 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

You Clanners, I swear.

>and if you think a jenner who cna run fast compared to a adr or kfx didn't deserve to get bigger, well then you are missign objectivity.

Jenner: a few MDLAS and a small missile pack or two, depending on variant. Adder and Kitfox: Both get way more weapons payload than a Jenner.

Jenners live on evasiveness and anklebiting with lighter weapons. Clan lights like the Adder and Kitfox usually pack weapons big enough to menace mechs 2 size classes above them, but trade away speed (unless you're a Cheetah or Lynx, they're still pretty speedy, but have correspondingly lighter weapons payloads.) Lern2balance pls. Like seriously, show me an IS light that can pack a pair of ERPPCs, a Gauss, or stonking great big LRM racks without trading away 100KPH+ speed. You Clanners get nice XLs that don't kill you automatically on a sidecore, to boot.

lol emnace mechs 2 size above? rolf, you may probably try to build your is mechs correctly, because how many adders did you see in scouting? mostlikely, 1 out of 100 games. whiel exides everywhere. your is lights still have more heat efficient weapon and you can pew pew a lot longer and cause more damage for the same hat. Also, "more weapons" adder comes at ebst with 5 E while how many E has a jenner? Also, lrm racks, seriously, you talk about lrms on light mechs? not sure if i want to reply further. And wow, double peps coem with a havy heat in fact your oxide easily kills a double pep adder even with the new size, if not, someone is doing soemthing horribly wrong with his oxide. And a single gauss on a light, truly devasting, gerat dps , much ammo, wow. seriously, there way better builds. and if you twist proerly ST destructon isn't much of an iissue, which would coem to the enct part with an ADR CT you don't even need to fire on the ST's so why tryign to shoot 2 CT's to crap when you cna do it by either just the CT or 2 legs?

grba a jenner full of ML's or even shorts and rip apart every adder coming to you. given you have sufficient aim to shoot his legs off.

DemonRaziel, on 21 June 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Soon ™? Once these nerfs are balanced in another way, they will stop being an issue. As it is now, they are nerfs


Well if we're looking at the speed to size ratio, then damn, poor Locust should have been Gigantic But Panther, on the other hand, isn't much of a sprinter. Or if we're looking at hardpoints, then the Spider should be super tiny.

Volumetric sizing all over the board is flawed, when there's no particular reason why all the 'Mechs should have the same density and it throws the balance out of the window.

Oh and let's not forget movement archtype changes

see we are not looking at speed size comaprison, but he complaiend about the jenner which is ontop of being still smaller still faster, so it can still dodge better than an adder, yet he complaisn the Jenner being too big. If that would be the case the adr is still WAY too big. So his logic is already off here.

it's about surface not valume, that differs massively, and still yes mechs of similar size need similar surface otherwise the ones with the worse geometry stay unused, since geometry is suvival and survival is key in a shooter.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 June 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[DemonRaziel]

Lily from animove, on 21 June 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

geometry is suvival and survival is key in a shooter.

We agree on this one. Well, partially, at least, since there are other factors, such as hard points, speed, additional utility, armor...

But at least we all agree that size of a 'Mech is one of the important balancing factors. Which is why a purely volumetric sizing is not the best approach, which we probably disagree on.

[Lily from animove]

Probably Not, on 21 June 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Yeah. Heavies don't like copping Gauss slugs, LRM20 salvos, UAC10 bursts or ERPPC shots any more than anyone else.



Adder/KFX for fire support, not for scouting. Leave scouting to MLX and ACH.



You can pack more DHS because 1 less crit taken, you outrange IS in every engagement imaginable and lern2heatmanagement, chainfire IS your friend sometimes.



6 on a Jenner F (yippee one whole E hardpoint, go me), but a lot less tonnage to throw at those slots.



Both Adder and Cutefox have the ability to happily tote plenty of LRMs.



Stop fighting Oxides in your Adder. It's not made for that.

you were the one comparing them dude and trying to say adr is better, now you coem with this nonsense? lol

AND throwing lrms in lights? tahts T5 scrub level, no serious warrior uses lrm's in thsoe mechs, nto enough ammo for serious damage and the wor4st weaponsystem at all.

and less tonnage to throw at these lsots? yo never use anthign above 1t lasers anyways on lights. so what youw anna slap on those 6 E in your jenner 6 LPL? Dude what do you even try to construct, your jenner needs nothign more than a set of smalls, meds or small pulses.

yes they aren't used for scouting yet how many adders/kfx do you see in quickplay or in FW? basically none, looks like i am the only oen fieldind an adder. everyone else is isung ACH's

So I wodner what are you playing? surely not MWO, if you look at what mechs are fielded and what not you would not talk the nonsense you talk. these so amazing "fire support" mechs are nothing than low armored mediums, and there is yet not much of a place for them in MWO, sicne their a fast light or any medium can do thir job better

DemonRaziel, on 21 June 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

We agree on this one. Well, partially, at least, since there are other factors, such as hard points, speed, additional utility, armor...

But at least we all agree that size of a 'Mech is one of the important balancing factors. Which is why a purely volumetric sizing is not the best approach, which we probably disagree on.

surface =/= volume An twisted in griffin has a laod of advantages over a Dragon, in fact any sufrace offering the attacker the choice of choosing the location is always in a lot darker spot than any mech able to twist and decide what locations to show the opponent. Cata, Nova and Dragon are the ones that always expose CT, and that is togtehr with rather large CT areas the worst a mech can get. And thats hardly relates to their volume anymore. becaue the well aimign gamer can easily hit any hitbox the size of an atla's head. Thats why mechs like the SCR are so damn durable they have weird slim hitboxes (and scr does have quite some volume too) but the way it's shaped makes single hitbox hitting nearly impossible for all steramign weapons when the pilot twists.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 June 2016 - 03:48 PM.

[DemonRaziel]

Lily from animove, on 21 June 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

surface =/= volume

Let's stop arguing semantics, we both know what I meant.

I'm not sure what the point of that lecture about twisting and hitboxes was, but I don't actually dispute anything you have mentioned in that post.

Irregardless of how well a particular 'Mech can shield his vital parts by twisting, reducing his size makes him a smaller target, while increasing it makes him a bigger target than he previously was, since both with the volume also his surface area has changed for better or worse.

[Mokyu]

Size and scale of lights and catapult is out of wack. Maybe correct for volume, but you dont shoot a volume; you shoot the barn door profiles. Also discovered the hit registration on the Catapult is larger than the render of the mech, shooting just over the ears will register hits and destry the ears.

[Griffin839]

Just a reminder, the new sizes are closer to the way they are supposed to be based on cannon. Lights are light because they are lightly armored and carry less firepower than other mechs. This does not mean they are tiny.

[Zolaz]

So a Blackjack is suppose to be as big as Heavies and Assaults? A 45 tonner.

[Kalleballe]

If you insist that big = height and chose to ignore other dimensions, then yes.

[gloowa]

Zolaz, on 21 June 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

So a Blackjack is suppose to be as big as Heavies and Assaults? A 45 tonner.

If by "big" you mean "high", ignoring all other measurements, then yes. Canonnically, all mechs are 2 levels (12m) high when standing, with 1 level (6m) cover being able to protect their legs but still expose the torsos and arms.


Whoever is complaining about wolfhound and blackjack. You are wrong.


1 ) both of those are NOT taller then catapult. they are about the same height.
2 ) If you look at the front profile, you can clearly see catapult has bigger profile
3 ) If you look at the side profile, you can see that catapult clearly has bigger profile
4 ) If you look at the top-down profile, you can see that catapult clearly has bigger profile
5 ) You didn't check anything before posting, you just eyeballed the height, decided you are unhappy and went here to moan. Shame! Shame! Shame!

[LennStar]

You forgot to say that the BJ can now getting hit standing beyond an Atlas.

Sitting in a BJ you can look above the cat.
Atlas has about the same size.

EDIT:
Just tested it.
My BJ had sex with a nice looking cat, took it from the back.
Shooting easily above the cat at the ground 300m away.

Edited by LennStar, 22 June 2016 - 01:14 AM.

[gloowa]

LennStar, on 22 June 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

You forgot to say that the BJ can now getting hit standing beyond an Atlas.

Sitting in a BJ you can look above the cat.
Atlas has about the same size.

EDIT:
Just tested it.
My BJ had sex with a nice looking cat, took it from the back.
Shooting easily above the cat at the ground 300m away.

Can someone translate to english please?

[DemonRaziel]

gloowa, on 22 June 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

Can someone translate to english please?

I guess... he was able to shoot over the Cat's head with his Blackie at a point on the ground 300 meters away.

[DAEDALOS513]

Dee Eight, on 21 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Volumetric sizing kids... the pult is shorter sure, but its girth is greater. Put this another way...if they had used volume sizing math when they FIRST released the game, nobody would be complaining about height changes now. Stop thinking two-dimensionally...

Dee I'd like you to compare the wlf with the spider and then tell me with a straight face that PGI did an accurate job at volumetric sizing. Remember, spider is only 5 tons lighter. This comparison alone tells me the rescale is a joke meant to appease the bulk of players that use heavies and assaults.. this was a nerf to light pilots (the minority). IT'S ALL BUSINESS.