52 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

I think all of the PPCs should get a 50% base speed velocity increase (and the velocity quirks should be removed).

PPCs shouldn't have to be quirked to be even remotely usable.

I'd like to see PPCs more viable ...

However, don't you recall WHY PPC speeds are set to the values they are at the moment???

Speed synergy between PPC and Gauss.

At one point the gauss + dual PPC combo was very effective because the projectile velocities were comparable. This made for larger PPFLD alpha builds. Macros got around issues of synchronizing the firing times. The result was 35 to 45 pin point alphas. To reduce this, PGI nerfed the PPC projectile velocities and increased the gauss velocity. You rarely see this combo in use today as a result.

If they want to fix PPC velocty ... they need to consider all the weapons together.

[Lightfoot]

Base speed of PPCs/ERPPCs could go up some more. Best buff would be to fix the phantom hit bug where they hit with no doubt but do no damage. It's better than before, but still happens and I can't put my finger on any particular reason.

Gauss Rifle needs to hold it's charge for at least a full Battle Tech turn and not blow up if un-charged. It is just too nerfed as is. In past MechWarrior games they just gave the Gauss a longer cooldown and that was enough to get into short range on mechs that had them as their main weapon. Ultra-ACs or LB20X nullify Gauss in previous MW games and those are just the ballistic counters.

[Strum Wealh]

Hit the Deck, on 26 June 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

Wait, maybe this is a false comparison. What should (ER)PPCs be compared to?

IMO, those weapons with a projectile velocity should have time-to-target as one of several bases for comparison.
Time-to-target should be a particularly prominent basis for comparison in discussions regarding possible changes to projectile velocity.

AC/2: 2000 m/s, 720 meters → time-to-target = 0.360 seconds
AC/5: 1150 m/s, 620 meters → time-to-target = 0.539 seconds
UAC/5: 1150 m/s, 600 meters → time-to-target = 0.522 seconds
AC/10: 950 m/s, 450 meters → time-to-target = 0.474 seconds
LB 10-X: 1100 m/s, 540 meters → time-to-target = 0.491 seconds
AC/20: 650 m/s, 270 meters → time-to-target = 0.415 seconds
Gauss Rifle: 2000 m/s, 660 meters → time-to-target = 0.330 seconds

PPC: 1200 m/s, 540 meters → time-to-target = 0.450 seconds
ER-PPC: 1300 m/s, 810 meters → time-to-target = 0.623 seconds

(time-to-target) = (optimal range)/(projectile velocity)
All of the above projectile velocities and optimal ranges are as of the time of this writing (June 29, 2016).

The standard PPC is not too bad off, having a slightly shorter time-to-target at listed optimal range as the class-10 autocannons, and a significantly shorter time-to-target at listed optimal range as the class-5 autocannons.

The ER-PPC, on the other hand, has a significantly longer time-to-target at its listed optimal range than all of the other weapons (~16% greater than that of the next-highest time-to-target, that of the AC/5).
For the ER-PPC to have the same time-to-target at its optimal range as the standard PPC (0.450 seconds), its projectile velocity would have to be increased to 1800 m/s (a ~39% increase over its current value); to match the next-highest current time-to-target (the AC/5, at 0.539 seconds), its projectile velocity would have to be increased to ~1500 m/s.

Thoughts?

[wanderer]

Quote

Don't PPCs spread their damage, while Gauss don't? Last I recall that's a significant difference or did I miss something in an update?

Only Clan ERPPCs do, as otherwise you were seeing CERPPC/Gauss synced 60 shots from Dire Wolves eviscerating people left and right. (Of course, now it's "only" 50 damage.)

[Hit the Deck]

Strum Wealh, on 29 June 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

...
Thoughts?

Sorry that I just got back to this!

Normalizing projectile/weapon's time-to-target certainly have merit, though it's just one aspect of balance. For example, weapons with long reach could end up preferable for all ranges because of their high projectile speed. I agree though that ERPPC should have its speed increased/normalized because it has already some disadvantages compared to PPC, namely the heat as the major one.

[Pjwned]

ER PPCs have always needed to be much faster, both so that it's more distinguished from the PPC and so that its long range is actually useful instead of "oh I'll never hit that target at 800m because my shot travels too slow" which is something nobody should think ever.

PPCs are fine at their current velocity, and if anything are actually too fast by a little bit, but ER PPCs should have something like 1750 m/s velocity.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 June 2016 - 05:39 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

wasn't there a idea with different wave lengths lately? Ok it wouldn't work well for ballistics but there the long reach comes for a price.
But PPCs could use the same principle - the ERPPC focus max damage at further distance while the normal PPC at closer ranges.

As usual, the Gauss is the bull in a china shop

[Steve Pryde]

Not only the velocity speed should be reworked, the projectile itself too. For my experience, it's just too big. That's why I'm using lasers instead of ppcs because there I never fear that my laser beams are get caught on something.

[MrVei]

I use PPCs often, I found the round would hit trees and lamp post ect far to often, then after the last patch it seems much better, but now I miss targets far more now due to the rounds going under a arm or between legs. anyone else pick up on this problem?

[Karl Streiger]

Hm well imho the clipping for ppc were always strange - had tested on training grounds with whm
Ppc and large Laser in arm
Ppc hit terrain - Laser passed and hit target
Ppc miss target but again the laser did hit
It looked like the bullet was to big vs terrain but to small vs Mechs - does this make any sense? Not at all - on the other hand hit obstacle in qp that did count as hits

[invernomuto]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

I think all of the PPCs should get a 50% base speed velocity increase (and the velocity quirks should be removed).

PPCs shouldn't have to be quirked to be even remotely usable.

+1

[blood4blood]

Pretty much every single aspect of PPC and gauss performance being complained about in this thread was done intentionally by PGI to nerf both weapons and as Mawai said, especially to nerf using them in combination. It seems the majority of MWO's player base prefers long brawls to snipe-fests and quick kills, and PGI reacted accordingly. That in mind, I wouldn't get your hopes up for any major changes any time soon.

Cynicism aside, I'd be happy to see PGI put PPC's and gauss back where they were with compatible velocities and no charge mechanic, but I'm not the majority demographic.

[Strum Wealh]

Hit the Deck, on 30 June 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Sorry that I just got back to this!

Normalizing projectile/weapon's time-to-target certainly have merit, though it's just one aspect of balance. For example, weapons with long reach could end up preferable for all ranges because of their high projectile speed. I agree though that ERPPC should have its speed increased/normalized because it has already some disadvantages compared to PPC, namely the heat as the major one.

Pjwned, on 30 June 2016 - 05:39 AM, said:

ER PPCs have always needed to be much faster, both so that it's more distinguished from the PPC and so that its long range is actually useful instead of "oh I'll never hit that target at 800m because my shot travels too slow" which is something nobody should think ever.

PPCs are fine at their current velocity, and if anything are actually too fast by a little bit, but ER PPCs should have something like 1750 m/s velocity.

I suppose that it goes without saying that I agree that the standard PPC is fine as it is, velocity-wise, and that I would support an increase in ER-PPC projectile velocity to between 1500 m/s and 1800 m/s (with a preference for values closer to the latter), as a means of making the ER-PPC more practical to employ at its optimal range.
Bear in mind that the average human reaction time is usually cited as being between 0.19 seconds and 0.26 seconds for a visual stimulus (source 1, source 2, source 3), so it is not as though alert players would be rendered wholly unable to twist away or dodge if the shooter's timing or distance are off, if the ER-PPC's projectile velocity were so increased.

The standard PPC would still hold the advantage of efficiency (in terms of damage per unit of heat generated) at ranges between 90 meters and 540 meters (and is still delivering 90% of its per-salvo damage out to 594 meters, which takes 0.495 seconds to reach), and should still be plenty fast enough to get its job done (see, comparison to the class-5 and class-10 ACs, despite most of the ACs being slower while having comparable effective ranges).

Personally, I'd also like to see the PPC regain its minimum range drop-off (linear drop-off from 10 damage at 90 meters, to 5 damage at 45 meters, to 0 damage at 0 meters).