151 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Trauglodyte, on 26 June 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

...
The question remains: Is there a middle ground to making LRMs better while reducing the impact of LRM50+ boaters?

Ideally? In a world where Piranha actually has development resources to spare?

Targeting channels.

Any given 'Mech has so many 'channels' available to guide missiles to their target with, a'la several of the more realistic mil sci-fi series I track. Say thirty, as a general global default. More for certain 'Mechs, less for other 'Mechs, but 30 on average. You have thirty different channels you can send targeting data to in-flight missiles through.

If you have thirty or less missiles in the air - in the air - each missile gets its own dedicated targeting information channel and you get maximum effectiveness in missile grouping and tracking. Start exceeding that number of missiles, and your missiles are forced to start sharing targeting channels and thusly lose both tracking and grouping efficiency. Exceed your target channel limits by too much and some of the missiles in your bloatboat LRMaggeddon salvos lose lock altogether and just hit wherever they feel like.

Once a channel system is in place, LRMs can be tightened up with the channel limits in mind. Faster, tighter, more effective missiles that are forced to arrive in smaller groups, because larger megasalvos of missile fire end up scattered, tracking poorly, and slop damage everywhere as opposed to the dense, effective hammers of fully guided LRM fire. At the cost, of course, of requiring pilots to moderate their fire rates to ensure they don't ever have too many missiles in the air.

[totgeboren]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

And it is sub par because stupids can't understand how to use it properly? k ...
Can I have my 10.0 DPS MGs yet?



How is it a joke when for example you have quad LRM15 and do 60 damage per shot. An Atlas with AC20 and three SRM6s does 59 damage per shot with about same efficiency (spread wise) at 300m range. Is brawler Atlas a joke nowadays too? Mauler with AC5s does 20-25 damage per shot, so it must be even bigger joke, right?

Once again, if you don't know how to use your weapon effectively don't start crying about how bad it is just based on your own inability.

Just today I tried a Catapult with 4xLRM10 in the testing grounds. Tourmaline, I placed myself 200 m from the Atlas, facing it head on. This is really as good as it gets, big target and close range.
But look, a few of the missiles hit the ground behind the Atlas! (Though most do hit.)

A Quad LRM15 does not do 60 dmg to anything in one salvo, because the spread is bigger than even the largest mech.
Using 10 tons of ammo, I managed to destroy the Atlas, the Catapult and cripple the Cataphract (though not destroy it), with 1800 missiles against stationary targets using the LRM10, who has got a semi-ok spread.

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

(Note: The following is partially tongue-in-cheek, but the suggested fixes aren't.)

Wanderer

The real question is... do you still have the receipt?

[Navid A1]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

And it is sub par because stupids can't understand how to use it properly? k ...
Can I have my 10.0 DPS MGs yet?



How is it a joke when for example you have quad LRM15 and do 60 damage per shot. An Atlas with AC20 and three SRM6s does 59 damage per shot with about same efficiency (spread wise) at 300m range. Is brawler Atlas a joke nowadays too? Mauler with AC5s does 20-25 damage per shot, so it must be even bigger joke, right?

Once again, if you don't know how to use your weapon effectively don't start crying about how bad it is just based on your own inability.

wow... so much nonsense in one post!

Didn't think i see a day someone compares quad LRM15 with atlas brawler and mauler dakka.

Are you even serious?

Quad LRM15 will never do 60 damage... you'll be lucky if even 50 of those hit (arms, legs and torsos included)

Atlas can pump out all its damage directly to the target's CT and it can do it every 4 seconds stock! (and below 4 secs with modules)... and the shot does not take 3 seconds to reach the target and the target does not receive a warning.

And no comment on mauler dakka. you clearly have some way ahead of you in learning the game mechanics!

[Weeny Machine]

The problem is that LRMs have the potential to be insanely OP. Just takePolar HighLRMlands - usually you need a radar mod and a trench to escape them. A lock on weapon which doesn't even need aiming.

Actually I think they should do it like that:
Lock mechanic only with NARC and TAG. As a compensation speed should be increased to make the LRMs viable

It would still be worthwhile to NARC and TAG because of the high flightspeed

[Revis Volek]

Darth Hotz, on 26 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just recently I built a Lurmmauler for shits and giggles and guess what, I scored extremely high again. So I think I have reason enough to say no to any lrm improvements, because I know how to play lrms. The game is to static already with lots of missle boats hiding far away from the front line and let others do their work. It is completly reasonable that you get downsides for using a weapon system that does not require you to face the enemy. And if you are one of those lrm players that pump volley after volley into rocks and buildings noone can help you anyway.

What does SCORING HIGH mean?

Lots of dmg? High match score?

You can whine about how GOOD you think they are but they are merely decent. When i can take 17 LRM volleys in my WHM and not die (with an XL mind you) and actually lived to see the end of the match after said LRM mech took 64% of my total mech health butt he could kill me, not even trying his hardest.


Getting close to killing something ISNT killing it. LRM are bad at killing things most the time and the name of this game is to KILL the other 12 mechs on the field.


LRMs arent so great and this is from someone who uses them quite often for lulz and to play support for pugs friends.

[wanderer]

I run in Polar whenever I can.

No radar dep. I'm firing LRMs myself, so I've gotta put those module slots full of advanced target decay and such instead.

Strangely, I rarely get missiled to death, and I'm usually firing inside 500m. Right in the middle of everyone else shooting. If your opponents aren't firing NARCs, you're only getting bombed to death if you've let someone sit there and spot your team. IMHO, it's the map where scouts are the most important, positioning is punished the most for failing to realize what's going on 360 degrees around you.

My "OMG LURMS OP" games tend to be ones where the enemy sits in one place while being enveloped by ours. The moment you've given up a LOS that goes straight down your firing line, you get bombarded until your team moves. The reason LRMs are so good there is it's easy to negate a static position's cover because Polar is bar none the easiest map to move around in- literally everywhere has multiple points you can sneak down a trench to go peek at.

I have games where I ended up with a pile of kills because people simply didn't move to the opposite (where no enemies or LOS were, mind you) side of a hill thanks to having blinders on about a line extending around their flank...and then complaining about how easy it was to get lurmed to death. By comparison, I've had to be the guy driving off scouts because everyone else is facing front and wondering why they kept getting INCOMING MISSILE as the ECM Spider pilot is snickering behind us.

It's incredibly easy to pile on the salt if you get tunnel vision.

[El Bandito]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

And it is sub par because stupids can't understand how to use it properly? k ...
Can I have my 10.0 DPS MGs yet?

How is it a joke when for example you have quad LRM15 and do 60 damage per shot. An Atlas with AC20 and three SRM6s does 59 damage per shot with about same efficiency (spread wise) at 300m range. Is brawler Atlas a joke nowadays too? Mauler with AC5s does 20-25 damage per shot, so it must be even bigger joke, right?

Once again, if you don't know how to use your weapon effectively don't start crying about how bad it is just based on your own inability.

I don't even have to reply to you. Your sorry excuse of a post is already drawing condemnations from the others.

Trauglodyte, on 26 June 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

The question remains: Is there a middle ground to making LRMs better while reducing the impact of LRM50+ boaters?

One way to do it is to increase AMS effectiveness (such as RoF boost) while buffing LRMs, so that LRMs will be less situational but still can be heavily mitigated. Further incentivise AMS usage by giving it a small C-Bill reward for shooting down missiles.

Some have suggested to allow IDF LRMs only when the target is Narced or TAGged or possibly UAVed.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2016 - 11:26 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Targeting channels.

Ghost spread.

Because hey, spread is already bad for people boating LRMs so lets just make it worse.

This is a 3025-era LRM boat. It packs 50 LRMs per salvo. (Your average LRM boat is firing 30-40.)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow

The Awesome-8R fires 4x15 stock. That's 60 LRMs per salvo.

This is a 3050-era tech LRM boat. It packs 60 LRMs per salvo, too.

http://www.sarna.net...der_(BattleMech)

This is the Bane. It's a Clan LRM boat. It fires 120 LRMs per salvo.. Let's be charitable and say in MWO, it'd probably end up 8xALRM 10 for 80 LRMs per salvo instead.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bane_(Kraken)

This is a Clan 30-tonner. It fires as many LRMs as the 3025 boats, 40 per salvo.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mandrill

Now, given that large launchers already lose considerable numbers of missiles even on a stationary target, why would we put a mechanic in that punishes their use even further? Ghost heat AND ghost clustering?

Quote

Using 10 tons of ammo, I managed to destroy the Atlas, the Catapult and cripple the Cataphract (though not destroy it), with 1800 missiles against stationary targets using the LRM10, who has got a semi-ok spread.

Let's also note: Perfect, 100% shots. 10 tons of ammo. Two solo kills and most of a third.

And that's with LRM 10s that still partially missed a stationary Atlas.

Edited by wanderer, 27 June 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[1453 R]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

The problem is that LRMs have the potential to be insanely OP. Just takePolar HighLRMlands - usually you need a radar mod and a trench to escape them. A lock on weapon which doesn't even need aiming.

Actually I think they should do it like that:
Lock mechanic only with NARC and TAG. As a compensation speed should be increased to make the LRMs viable

It would still be worthwhile to NARC and TAG because of the high flightspeed

PSA For Everyone

Please stop suggesting "Locks/indirect only happens with TAG/NARC". it's a dumb idea.

For one, it's very, very easy for TAG/NARC to lose lock halfway through a salvo, in which case your LRMs are no longer acting the same way they did when they left the tubes. If the missile have drastically different performance envelopes with or without TAG/NARC, and are able to change between these profiles mid-flight, then your weapon is highly unreliable and generally useless. And also problematical and prone to code glitches, given the ambiguous nature of its functionality and its ability to decide at any point for any reason to use whichever behavior you're not currently hoping for.

For two, TAG cannot be used the way it's 'intended' to be used, as it is utterly suicidal for any 'spotter' to stand somewhere and stare at a target whilst projecting a constant "COOKIE HERE" location beacon. TAG desperately needs a rework - either the beam is invisible to enemies, or TAG becomes a duration/cooldown weapon which grants something like 5s of bonus if the entire 'burntime' of the beam (prolly 0.25s, or somewhere thereabouts) hits the target. Otherwise you will never convince people to spot for your idiotic bloatboat supersalvos for you. And NARC? Yeah, good luck hitting with a NARC projectile outside 200m range. At which point you're already out of position for LRMs.

All these suggestions keep saying "work with spotters to achieve LRM locks/indirect fire or suck it up and go direct like you bloody well should"...save most of them also neglect to come up with ways that LRM direct fire becomes not utterly awful, nor comes up with ways for spotters to survive spotting for LRMs, nor does it account for the fact that spotters and LRM machines finding each other in queue is a dicey proposition at the best of times.

Every other weapon in MWO is self-contained. SRMs don't need you to bring an AC/2 to mark the target as SRM bait. Lasers don't need you to bring a slew of machine guns to spew heat bullets to cool them off. LRMs which are incapable of functioning effectively without a second 'Mech bringing a rare subset of gear which does not benefit the second 'Mech itself in any way are LRMs no one should have to deal with.

Think your suggestions through, just a little bit, before suggesting them.

[Darth Hotz]

Revis Volek, on 27 June 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

What does SCORING HIGH mean?

Lots of dmg? High match score?

You can whine about how GOOD you think they are but they are merely decent. When i can take 17 LRM volleys in my WHM and not die (with an XL mind you) and actually lived to see the end of the match after said LRM mech took 64% of my total mech health butt he could kill me, not even trying his hardest.


Getting close to killing something ISNT killing it. LRM are bad at killing things most the time and the name of this game is to KILL the other 12 mechs on the field.


LRMs arent so great and this is from someone who uses them quite often for lulz and to play support for pugs friends.

1. Both.
2. Who is whining? Me, who just says no to further improvements to lrms or lurmfans crying here for absurd improvements to their "no need to aim" weapon system?
3. When a lurmer got you down to 36% of health and you are still alive, he has accomplished his mission and other failed to take you down, because
4. LRMs ARE A SUPPORT WEAPON
5. And for this they are good enough and dont need to be improved any more, because
6. Lurmfans recently had one of the biggest buffs for their weapons, the cut down on ecm to 90m and
7. Further improvements would destroy the already static gameplay. If you want more lurms...
8. Go and play missile command: http://my.ign.com/at...missile-command

[cazidin]

Hmm... I just had an idea. What if LRMs had limited streak capability, like SSRMs, in that they would all hit the target even if not the center mass? At least none of them would miss, in theory.

[adamts01]

cazidin, on 26 June 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

You don't. LRMs and Machine Guns will forever stay terrible and mostly useless weapons. Be thankful that PPCs are half-way decent again.

The same was said of flamers. Now the .5 ton Clan flamer can be a nice addition to a cool running brawler.

[Steel Claws]

Personally I think LRMs work just fine - or at least they do when I use them but then again I don't launch from more than 600 meters unless the target is in the wide open and I always have another weapon system. I usually do adequate damage and get a kill or two nearly every drop with them. If nothing else I suppress the enemy and cause them to take cover while weakening them for my team mates,

Personally I think people who complain about LRMs haven't thought this through. Yes some missiles miss. This is more true as range increases so in effect you do less damage as range increases - just like every other weapon system in the game. Without the spread an LRM 40 would do 40 points of damage. I tend to get between 35 - 40 percent of my LRMs to hit according to my stats page- from cover and probably arcing over cover to do it. Something that NO other weapon system can do. So LRMs should NOT be on a par damage wise with other weapons because they can do things that no other weapon can do. THIS is their advantage. If you want equal damage and 100% hits give up tag, narc, spotters, and stand in the open to shoot like all the other weapons.

[Navid A1]

Steel Claws, on 27 June 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

Personally I think LRMs work just fine - or at least they do when I use them but then again I don't launch from more than 600 meters unless the target is in the wide open and I always have another weapon system. I usually do adequate damage and get a kill or two nearly every drop with them. If nothing else I suppress the enemy and cause them to take cover while weakening them for my team mates,

Personally I think people who complain about LRMs haven't thought this through. Yes some missiles miss. This is more true as range increases so in effect you do less damage as range increases - just like every other weapon system in the game. Without the spread an LRM 40 would do 40 points of damage. I tend to get between 35 - 40 percent of my LRMs to hit according to my stats page- from cover and probably arcing over cover to do it. Something that NO other weapon system can do. So LRMs should NOT be on a par damage wise with other weapons because they can do things that no other weapon can do. THIS is their advantage. If you want equal damage and 100% hits give up tag, narc, spotters, and stand in the open to shoot like all the other weapons.

Spread is the same for LRMs regardless of range.

I think PGI officially confirmed this.

[SplashDown]

lrmns are fine the way they are.

[El Bandito]

Karl Streiger, on 27 June 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

what if LRMs use the Streak mechanic? Locking on component parts. But instead of lobbing 5/10/15/20 missiles its always just 5 missiles with the difference that LRM20s deal more damage per missile.

• LRM 5 = 5 Missiles 0.7dmg point, 0.2dmg splash
  
• LRM 10 = 5 Missiles 1.2dmg point 0.5dmg splash
  
• LRM 15 = 5 Missiles 1.7dmg point 0.8dmg splash
  
• LRM 20 = 5 Missiles 2.2 dmg point 1.1dmg splash

Splash damage is not good for balancing due to its widely varying performance depending on the target's hitboxes. LRMs and SRMs back in 2012 and 2013 had splash damage but they were removed for a reason.

[Steel Claws]

The spread might be the same for range but your chances of getting a hit go down as the range increases. Your target has more time to reach cover or break lock. That is what I was referring to not a difference in spread.

[PhoenixFire55]

totgeboren, on 27 June 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Just today I tried a Catapult with 4xLRM10 in the testing grounds. Tourmaline, I placed myself 200 m from the Atlas, facing it head on. This is really as good as it gets, big target and close range.
But look, a few of the missiles hit the ground behind the Atlas! (Though most do hit.)

A Quad LRM15 does not do 60 dmg to anything in one salvo, because the spread is bigger than even the largest mech.
Using 10 tons of ammo, I managed to destroy the Atlas, the Catapult and cripple the Cataphract (though not destroy it), with 1800 missiles against stationary targets using the LRM10, who has got a semi-ok spread.

Tag and Artemis help with all that. Plus, if you payed attention I have more than just LRMs on the build I used.

[PhoenixFire55]

Navid A1, on 27 June 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

wow... so much nonsense in one post!

Didn't think i see a day someone compares quad LRM15 with atlas brawler and mauler dakka.

Are you even serious?

Quad LRM15 will never do 60 damage... you'll be lucky if even 50 of those hit (arms, legs and torsos included)

Atlas can pump out all its damage directly to the target's CT and it can do it every 4 seconds stock! (and below 4 secs with modules)... and the shot does not take 3 seconds to reach the target and the target does not receive a warning.

And no comment on mauler dakka. you clearly have some way ahead of you in learning the game mechanics!

I'd like to see you try to pump all the damage from SRMs to the CT of smth like a Griffin or a Stormcrow moving at 110 kph at 300m range.

Apart from that I believe you've missed the point entirely. Please do try and pay attention to the entire conversation when you decide to take part in it.