BabyCakes666, on 29 June 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:
just up ram dmg so you can die from it
First, I want to address this concept, the fact that there "is no" collision damage. Here's my response from the
Black Knight and Grasshopper thread:
Jables McBarty, on 29 June 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:
*I want to note that these arguments to "add collision damage" suggest that lights don't already lose armor due to collisions....except they do. You don't notice it in your max-armor 75-tonner, but we notice it in our half-armor 20-tonners. We lose it when we bump friendlies, when friendlies bump us, when hitting hostiles, and, for non-JJ lights, when we fall/jump off ledges at 100+ kph trying to dodge your poorly-aimed PPC shots (and for JJ lights, when the buggy JJ code slams you into surfaces at -140 kph stripping 4% of your total HP and turning your leg armor a nice ochre)
Next comment:
Ed Steele, on 28 June 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:
How is taking away a crutch / exploit a "hard nerf"? Light pilots in this thread keep telling everyone to "learn how to aim", but how about light pilots maybe learning how to pilot their Mech's without running into things?
This is another misconception that comes from fatty pilots, that lights do not know how to avoid running into things.
1. A light engaging in a close-range fight--in a brawl--spends about 50% of its time dodging fire and obstacles, about 35% of its time getting into a decent firing position, and about 15% lining up and taking shots. Spend any time watching Darian's videos and you'll see that this is true.
2. Lights have very limited armor, the Locust in particular.
One Locust theorist suggests
107 total points of armor per Locust--including 2/3/2 across the RTs and 1 for the head. Because of this limited armor and its distribution, we spend a great deal of time weaving and torso twisting--attempting to use our generous yaw arc to always take shots on the front torsos. This means that not only are we never running in straight lines (a motionless Locust is a dead Locust; a Locust running in a straight line is a soon-to-be dead Locust), but we are almost never looking in our forward 90 degrees, and when we are it is because we are shaking the torso vigorously. For this reason, many (if not most) agile light pilots steer by the minimap alone, where you can always see where you are headed.
3. All of this movement is being done while under fire from at least one, if not multiple, enemy 'mechs. The light pilot is dodging all obstacles--both 'mechs and terrain--because he knows that the moment he stops he is dead from a single alpha. He is also attempting to stop, start, and weave to dodge beams and to trick lead-shots. If he encounters a streak-boat he either hopes the missiles auto-target fresh components or he turns to bear the majority of the payload on one or the other ST/arm--and in doing so has to interrupt his dodging pattern.
4. The light pilot recognizes that when engaging a slow fatty with all high-torso-mounted weapons, he has two safe zones--the rear arc and the near-front arc below the weapons' firing plane. For any fatty with streaks or LAAs, he has only the rear arc for safety. Thus he continues to thread the needle as close as possible to the legs/feet of his target, knowing that the second he leaves that safe zone he is toast. This is not an exploit,
it is making use of the only viable strategy other than long-range peek&poke available to non-JJ lights (as some JJ lights can jump over targets instead of hugging them). This is important to note in light of older fatty QQ threads complaining that the Oxide was too tanky. The Locust does not tank: it dodges or outright avoids being shot at--
it does what a viable light 'mech indisputably should do.
5. If we do increase collision damage, not only will the light pilot continue to spend 50% of his time dodging the same obstacles--other 'mechs, terrain, and weapons-fire--he will also need to dodge enemy 'mechs who are trying to intentionally ram him. You may think this far-fetched, but there
are people who run dedicated "light-hunter" builds--I know because I run them too. Not only will your 100+ kph 50- and 55-tonners attempt to ram lights when the opportunity arises, but truly fast mediums like the IFR and CDA will be able to hunt down and ram off the leg armor of fragile lights. All they need to do is strip and destroy one leg to get an easy kill. So you are asking light pilots to not only continue dodging all obstacles that happen to be around, but to also dodge targets that are intentionally trying to ram them.
To return to your rather disappointing response:
Ed Steele, on 29 June 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:
Well, I decided to actually play MWO last night instead of arguing about it on the forums, so don't hold you breath for a detailed response. I will it at this...
Me: Increased collision damage is good.
You:. Increased collision damage is bad.
There we go.
The point is not merely that increased collision damage is "bad," its that it will completely change the nature of the game. The light class will become unplayable for all but a few masochists.
Assaults and slow heavies will suffer from the change as much--if not more--than would lights.
As I said before:
Jables McBarty, on 27 June 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:
And frankly, it would probably backfire on your slower assaults. Get 4 fast heavies to ram an assault twice each and it's nearly legged.
TBR max [leg] armor+HP = 96pts. Ram twice -20 = 76 hp
DWF max [leg] armor+HP = 126pts. Four TBRs ramming it twice -80 = 46hp.
The game will turn into a much more stark version of peek&poke as players attempt to avoid any collision damage, interspersed by fast heavies and heavy mediums running gauntlets on slow fatties to leg them.
Alternatively, all lights will begin to equip JJs to hop over slow assautls and keep out of their firing arcs. We will use our front CT to ram your rear STs and take off 10pts per hit, then cut through internals with SPLs. Which will result in QQ and a further nerf to Class V jumpjets.
Either way, TTK for lights will go significantly down, resulting in serious buffs to leg structure/armor for these same lights. With new buffs, the 'mechs will become at least minimally viable again, resume peeling at the rear arcs of fatties, and the QQ will resume demanding some new convoluted solution. Meanwhile, the real solution--use teamwork, streaks, and lower arm actuators--will remain OP for those players willing to vary their loadouts.
TL;DR: Good light pilots are already experts at maneuvering, dodging more obstacles in a game than a fatty does in a career. Introducing collision will change balance in unpredictable ways but will eventually result in buffs to lights to make them viable again, ending in more fatty QQ and further attempts to fix a non-problem. Solution to your "problem" is same as it has always been.
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