98 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

I wonder how many of them have caught on to the fact that you are calling for the Mk. 3.....

where is that picture of the timbie with all of the baby mad cat models around it when I need it?

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 29 June 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

But yes, I don't get the hate people have for the Mad Cat MK2, it is a solid mech, sub optimal on tonnage efficiency? Sure, I won't argue that after seeing the numbers of how it would fair as an 85 tonner instead of 90 mech. It would be a solid and iconic mech, as would pretty much most heavy and assault clan mechs.

To particular hate, but it's a 3061 mech, at the bear minimum you could let it run as early as 3059.
Next problem is that it was used by Clans and Innersphere alike.
It's a good mech, but it doesn't fit into the 3050 timeline.

So either some wonky shenanigans to explain why there is a mech which wasn't even thought of until 10 years later or a timeline push. Including all what would be necessary for it (including LORE, Factions, mixtech etc etc)

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 29 June 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[Metus regem]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 29 June 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

To particular hate, but it's a 3061 mech, at the bear minimum you could let it run as early as 3059.
Next problem is that it was used by Clans and Innersphere alike.
It's a good mech, but it doesn't fit into the 3050 timeline.

Not to mention that because it was used by both sides, it creates a hell of a problem for CW.... Not like that mode doesn't have enough problems as it is....

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Not to mention that because it was used by both sides, it creates a hell of a problem for CW.... Not like that mode doesn't have enough problems as it is....

By the time the mkII WAS available to IS forces for sale, FedCom, DCMS, etc already hat large quantities of other clan mechs, tbh, so I'd say it's pretty simple, really.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 29 June 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

To particular hate, but it's a 3061 mech, at the bear minimum you could let it run as early as 3059.
Next problem is that it was used by Clans and Innersphere alike.
It's a good mech, but it doesn't fit into the 3050 timeline.

Yes that is a problem as then we hit mix tech (which to me is a nightmare to try to balance) and we suddenly see Mad Cat MK2's on both sides in faction play which would be... odd to say the least, but, Bishop is right, by that time most IS factions also had other Clan mechs to run around with. We all know that there will soon be a time jump from our current point 3053 to around 3058 or so, not 3061, I wouldn't be surprised if by next September though we start going into the 3060's (that is what 14 mechs between then and now at the current pace of 1 per month), I mean I really love the Lyrian Commonwealth Civil War/FedCom War era. Mmm Templar.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 June 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

By the time the mkII WAS available to IS forces for sale, FedCom, DCMS, etc already hat large quantities of other clan mechs, tbh, so I'd say it's pretty simple, really.

Yes, mixing drop deck tech would be easy, and would be the final nail in the coffin for that game mode if you ask me.

MWO once mix tech happens:

Edited by Metus regem, 29 June 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

Yes, mixing drop deck tech would be easy, and would be the final nail in the coffin for that game mode if you ask me.

Well we have until the timeline hits the FRR/CGB merger before that really becomes a valid concern, until then there really isn't a good enough excuse to allow units to drop mix tech drop decs for any of the major units.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 June 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

Well we have until the timeline hits the FRR/CGB merger before that really becomes a valid concern, until then there really isn't a good enough excuse to allow units to drop mix tech drop decs for any of the major units.

Mixed drops is one thing (as in clan and innershere mechs in one team)

Mix tech on the other hand is a total revamp of the game. i'm talking of Innersphere autocannons and pulselaser on clan omnimechs, or a battle master with clan XL engine and clan large pulse laser.

If PGI brings "that" we can kiss goodbye to any chance of balancing for the next 4-5 years.

[ScarecrowES]

You know me. My problem with the Mac is not that it's a poorly optimized defaults. If that's your thing, then more power to you. My issue is, as always, where do you put it?

Clan tech, but designed for and used almost exclusively by the Inner Sphere. It's got a very complicated pedigree that was not problem in TT unless yoy were playing by very strict rules. In MWO though, what do you do with it? Do you throw it in with the Clans because it uses Clan tech? It's the simplest way. But that really screws the folks who actually used this mech in lore.

Really, not sure I care. Don't know if I'd make room in my hangar for them either way. Not a mech I particularly want, though wouldn't prevent others from having their desires fulfilled.

[CK16]

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

You know me. My problem with the Mac is not that it's a poorly optimized defaults. If that's your thing, then more power to you. My issue is, as always, where do you put it?

Clan tech, but designed for and used almost exclusively by the Inner Sphere. It's got a very complicated pedigree that was not problem in TT unless yoy were playing by very strict rules. In MWO though, what do you do with it? Do you throw it in with the Clans because it uses Clan tech? It's the simplest way. But that really screws the folks who actually used this mech in lore.

Really, not sure I care. Don't know if I'd make room in my hangar for them either way. Not a mech I particularly want, though wouldn't prevent others from having their desires fulfilled.

Clans still used plenty of Mk II's, more so then the IS houses, do I need to go get all those Random Unit Selection Tables again? Lol Clans out numbered IS there. I am including Wolf in Exile and Nova Cat in the Clan not IS toy box here as well, in case you bring them up.

Where do you get this exclusively for IS from? It was designed for and offered to Clans first, Wolf in Exile and Nova Cat took most, but still others fielded them. Sure some houses bought them, But they were not like candy with them and only given to A line units, in limited numbers based off what the tables show. The mech is more clan then an IS house mech.

I get what you are saying by lore, but that would be one of the worst things to do based off lore, I do not think anymore here would be super upset with the Mk II simply being a Clan mech for Clan factions to choose form thier toy box. You have said the same things about the a Nova Cat and I know hardly anyone agrees that it should go to the IS.....

IMO be simple Clan tech = Clan mech IS tech = IS mech just as MW LL did it MWO would save lots of balancing headache with this.

Edited by CK16, 29 June 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[Coolant]

what are you talking about OP? Why do you bring your drama here to the forums?

[Metus regem]

Coolant, on 29 June 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

what are you talking about OP? Why do you bring your drama here to the forums?

Lest he's better about it, than one that shall not be named....

[TWIAFU]

CK16, on 28 June 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

False, Russ has said he might be willing soon (as mentioned) to adding mechs "like the Mad Cat Mk II" in a few months. You can find it in the latest townhall video.

And the technology to match!

Sweet, sweet sSRM 4 and 6, LB5 and 20s will make all IS pilots happy!

[CK16]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Lest he's better about it, than one that shall not be named....

I am not necessarily trying to start drama, just set somethings straight and talk about something to clear some crap up here a bit .

I know a few of you guys well enough to consider you friends on here, enough that I can tell when you giving me elbow to the ribs or giving me a little grief about the Mk II and me and that's all fine.

But there are some that act towards me or others, that since we like the Mad Cat Mk II it makes us less of a battletech fan, or less of a warrior....

And it's gotten worse since one got all tied up in the poo and brought this mech into, that anyone associated with the mech is thrown into that same poo regardless and thus everything about the mech is considered the same joke and hatred by some here. I can stand jokes and the occasional ribbing about the mech, but the insults that are the "only idiots and newbs like the Mk II" and "Mad Cat Mk II sucks, don't add it ever!" is not called for anymore.

Edited by CK16, 29 June 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 29 June 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Clans still used plenty of Mk II's, more so then the IS houses, do I need to go get all those Random Unit Selection Tables again? Lol Clans out numbered IS there. I am including Wolf in Exile and Nova Cat in the Clan not IS toy box here as well, in case you bring them up.

Where do you get this exclusively for IS from? It was designed for and offered to Clans first, Wolf in Exile and Nova Cat took most, but still others fielded them. Sure some houses bought them, But they were not like candy with them and only given to A line units, in limited numbers based off what the tables show. The mech is more clan then an IS house mech.

I get what you are saying by lore, but that would be one of the worst things to do based off lore, I do not think anymore here would be super upset with the Mk II simply being a Clan mech for Clan factions to choose form thier toy box. You have said the same things about the a Nova Cat and I know hardly anyone agrees that it should go to the IS.....

IMO be simple Clan tech = Clan mech IS tech = IS mech just as MW LL did it MWO would save lots of balancing headache with this.

I'm glad you remember Clan Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat. The primary Clan users of that MkII were part of the Inner Sphere as of 3059. When you look at the few remaining Clans that can field the MkII by default, you'll notice that none of the large powerful Clans use it. Only a handful of smaller weak Clans do. However, many of the larger stronger IS Houses use it by default.

And we know that's because the MkII was an obsolete mech to the Clans even before it was released. It used tech that was well behind the curve for factions that can use clan tech natively. The only factions the mech would appeal to after 3059 were IS houses and weak/displaced Clans who needed to bolster their ranks with cheap Clan tech and wouldn't care if it was obsolete.

Diamond Shark made a lot of bank buying up the I fellow Clans' junk, repackaging it, and selling it at a profit to the other side. And that's what eventually let them buy their way into the Inner Sphere.

I don't really care if the mech is introduced as a Clan mech. PGI can take that road if they want. It's the easiest thing to do. But it's a problem that exists when you introduce a mech in a timeline later that what your maps shows.

Nova Cat is IS by the time the Nova Cat mech is released. Wolf-in-Exile is IS when the Arctic Wolf is released. Both mechs were famously used by their respective IS clans and allies to drive back the Invading Clans and destroy Smoke Jaguar. It would be weird having either mech fighting against the Sphere in the hands of the Clans.

There are ways to deal with the idea of mixed drop decks. In 3059 you have a number of IS/Clan combined factions... Nova Cat is part of Kurita, FRR is part of Ghost Bear, Clan Wolf is part of Jade Falcon, Wolf-in-Exile and Kell Hounds (Steiner) form the ARDC.

I say when these factions are created, where you have 2 different tech bases belonging to the same faction, you let each sub faction use either tech base, but you penalize their max drop weight if they use the tech base that's not native to them. As part of ARDC, Wolf-in-Exile could use their native Clan tech, or opt to bring IS mechs... but take a reasonable but severe hit to max drop weight if IS mechs are used. The penalty would probably have to be enough to at downgrade one mech in the drop deck by one class. So maybe a 25 ton penalty, plus or minus... and maybe make that a per mech penalty, so 50 tons for 2 IS mechs, etc.

Mix tech doesn't have to destroy the game if done smartly.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 29 June 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[Metus regem]

CK16, on 29 June 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

I am not necessarily trying to start drama, just set somethings straight and talk about something to clear some crap up here a bit .

I know a few of you guys well enough to consider you friends on here, enough that I can tell when you giving me elbow to the ribs or giving me a little grief about the Mk II and me and that's all fine.

But there are some that act towards me or others, that since we like the Mad Cat Mk II it makes us less of a battletech fan, or less of a warrior....

And it's gotten worse since one got all tied up in the poo and brought this mech into, that anyone associated with the mech is thrown into that same poo regardless and thus everything about the mech is considered the same joke and hatred by some here. I can stand jokes and the occasional ribbing about the mech, but the insults that are the "only idiots and newbs like the Mk II" and "Mad Cat Mk II sucks, don't add it ever!" is not called for anymore.

I would like to consider myself one of the ones that give you a bit of a ribbing and grief, in a good nature kind of way, I'm more along the lines of educate those that don't know much about the history of the universe, then let them make their own choice...

Snowbluff, on 29 June 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

where is that picture of the timbie with all of the baby mad cat models around it when I need it?

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

I'm glad you remember Clan Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat. The primary Clan users of that MkII were part of the Inner Sphere as of 3059. When you look at the few remaining Clans that can field the MkII by default, you'll notice that none of the large powerful Clans use it. Only a handful of smaller weak Clans do. However, many of the larger stronger IS Houses use it by default.

Clan Ghost Bear is one that I would consider to be "Large and Powerful", they did buy some of them, this was before they became the Rasalhague Dominion, once they became the Rasalhague Dominion, then I would classify them as truly IS. When they were the Ghost Bear Dominion, they were still more clan than IS.

Quote

I don't really care if the mech is introduced as a Clan mech. PGI can take that road if they want. It's the easiest thing to do. But it's a problem that exists when you introduce a mech in a timeline later that what your maps shows.

Nova Cat is IS by the time the Nova Cat mech is released. Wolf-in-Exile is IS when the Arctic Wolf is released. Both mechs were famously used by their respective IS clans and allies to drive back the Invading Clans and destroy Smoke Jaguar. It would be weird having either mech fighting against the Sphere in the hands of the Clans.

There are ways to deal with the idea of mixed drop decks. In 3059 you have a number of IS/Clan combined factions... Nova Cat is part of Kurita, FRR is part of Ghost Bear, Clan Wolf is part of Jade Falcon, Wolf-in-Exile and Kell Hounds (Steiner) form the ARDC.

I say when these factions are created, where you have 2 different tech bases belonging to the same faction, you let each sub faction use either tech base, but you penalize their max drop weight if they use the tech base that's not native to them. As part of ARDC, Wolf-in-Exile could use their native Clan tech, or opt to bring IS mechs... but take a reasonable but severe hit to max drop weight if IS mechs are used. The penalty would probably have to be enough to at downgrade one mech in the drop deck by one class. So maybe a 25 ton penalty, plus or minus... and maybe make that a per mech penalty, so 50 tons for 2 IS mechs, etc.

Mix tech doesn't have to destroy the game if done smartly.

This is PGI we are talking about, when they do something smartly is hardly ever the course they take....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Nova Cat is IS by the time the Nova Cat mech is released.

We've been over this before, this is wrong, Nova Cat had NOT even been abjured yet by the time the Nova Cat began production.

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Wolf-in-Exile is IS when the Arctic Wolf is released.

Wolves-in-Exile won't be a unit in FW because of how small they are.

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

FRR is part of Ghost Bear

No they weren't, don't confuse the Ghost Bear Dominion with the Rasalhague Dominion. They were friendly, but not that friendly yet.

ScarecrowES, on 29 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Clan Wolf is part of Jade Falcon

First, you are talking about a Clan being apart of a Clan.
Second, this lasted for what, a month if that?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 June 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Clan Ghost Bear is one that I would consider to be "Large and Powerful", they did buy some of them, this was before they became the Rasalhague Dominion, once they became the Rasalhague Dominion, then I would classify them as truly IS. When they were the Ghost Bear Dominion, they were still more clan than IS.





This is PGI we are talking about, when they do something smartly is hardly ever the course they take....

I'd have to check, but I don't think that Ghost Bear has access to the MkII by default.

And maybe if we take the Dumbo approach to giving PGI ideas - whisper them gently into their ear when they're asleep (etc) - they'll wake up thinking it was their own good idea.

[Metus regem]

TWIAFU, on 29 June 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

And the technology to match!

Sweet, sweet sSRM 4 and 6, LB5 and 20s will make all IS pilots happy!

ERSL
ERML (Finllay!)
SSRM4/6
LB/2/5/20
UAC/2/10/20

Those 10 weapons I just listed should be how IS vs Clan weapons are balanced, then let the IS balance:

SLas vs isERSL
MLas vs isERML

Things start to get a little wonky with IS UAC/10/20 do they do burst fire (Would make sens they are Clan knock offs) or single slug? (Going single slug would really make Clan UAC's tank by comparison....)

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 June 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

First, you are talking about a Clan being apart of a Clan.
Second, this lasted for what, a month if that?

Clan Wolf was never absorbed by Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Jade Wolf was done as a means to escape absorption, then Jade was dropped and they returned to being Clan Wolf, once Clan Wolf in Exile was abjured.