49 replies to this topic

[RustyBolts]

Why are the Black Knights and Grasshoppers larger than assaults? When I pilot one I look down onto all the assaults.

[Alistair Winter]

Because of their shape.

I thought we had talked about this already.

[RustyBolts]

Sorry if what brought up before. I do not spend a lot of time on the Forums.

[Bud Crue]

Alistair Winter, on 26 June 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Because of their shape.

I thought we had talked about this already.

At least, maybe a couple of times.

Again though: we have three dimensions to work with here: Width (right to left), side profile (front to back), and height (top to bottom). So As to the Grasshopper it has extreme minimums on two of three (it has a very small width and very small side-profile), thus the third dimension (height) is going to be extreme.
BK is very similar though it has a less extreme width.

That's really all there is two it: VOLUMETRIC scaling.

[Alistair Winter]

All 75 ton mechs have the same volume, all 70 ton mechs have the same volume, and so on. So mechs with long, lanky limbs and relatively flat torsos are usually really tall. Mechs with short, thick limbs and thick torsos are usually relatively short.

PGI did not consider balancing at all when they rescaled the mechs. Some people think they should have considered which mechs were better and which were worse. Some people don't. If you're interested, there's a lot of threads discussing it. Like this one:

http://mwomercs.com/...of-the-rescale/

690 posts and counting

[Captain Artemis]

Alistair Winter, on 26 June 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Because of their shape.

I thought we had talked about this already.

Currently the whole issue around Black Knight is that it's not quite tends to it's role, as it suppose to be good brawler. While without any mechanics like "rising your arm" being implemented in MWO, this role if forced on this machine by it's hardpoint placement.

So what this machine recived? Nerf to it's offensive and defensive capabilities (beside the 6B variant with it's heat generation, especially for ER PPC). With the bigger size, XL Engine seems to be out of place. So within upcoming quirk pass, Black Knight need to follows the road Atlas, and get some good amount of structure buff.

[Clownwarlord]

RustyBolts, on 26 June 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Why are the Black Knights and Grasshoppers larger than assaults? When I pilot one I look down onto all the assaults.

WRONG!!! They are as tall or taller but not larger and not bigger. Get your adjective right.

[Jables McBarty]

Captain Artemis, on 28 June 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

So what this machine recived? Nerf to it's offensive and defensive capabilities (beside the 6B variant with it's heat generation, especially for ER PPC). With the bigger size, XL Engine seems to be out of place. So within upcoming quirk pass, Black Knight need to follows the road Atlas, and get some good amount of structure buff.

Nah, I think they're fine where they are.

http://mwomercs.com/...but-the-locust/

[MeiSooHaityu]

If mech A is taller than mech B, it is bigger...period!

This message brought to you by Forum Logic.

[Ultimax]

Because PGI had sold enough of them, and mid/low tier bads are still crying about a meta that ended over 6 months ago.

So it was gg close time for these two mechs.

I advise you to find better mechs to play, it will be a long time (if ever) before PGI gets around to improving their situation.

[Lightfoot]

The only size that matters are the torso sections, but these change shape per mech design and have different borders for the hit-boxes therein. Then you still get throwback mechs like the Orion that have weird missile count limits applied to each launcher while new shiney mechs like the Marauder, Archer (except the CT is 10 duh), and Warhammer do not. Maybe no one is supposed to use the Orion anymore?

So I don't agree with PGI's premise for the re-scale that volume alone equals tonnage. But since PGI does then mechs like the Stalker, Marauder, Nova, Catapult, etc. are all benefiting from their oblong torsos or oversized arms or both. Maybe not much, but more than a mech with a humanoid torso and thin limbs, Grasshopper for instance.

[BigBenn]

I am continuously amazed that people can't figure this new "volume" thing out.

When you see a 70 ton Grasshopper mech standing as tall or taller as an 100 ton Atlas, please stop and turn them both sideways and see the differences. Likewise, STUDY the width of the legs and arms. STUDY the differences in depth and girth.

For Montezuma's Revenge sake... stop and think!!!

[Ultimax]

BigBenn, on 28 June 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

I am continuously amazed that people can't figure this new "volume" thing out.

When you see a 70 ton Grasshopper mech standing as tall or taller as an 100 ton Atlas, please stop and turn them both sideways and see the differences. Likewise, STUDY the width of the legs and arms. STUDY the differences in depth and girth.

For Montezuma's Revenge sake... stop and think!!!

And I'm still stunned there are people so dense who fail to realize that we do in fact understand volume, but do not understand how PGI failed to balance based on how badly some mechs are affected by their new sizes.


Here's a hint for the perpetually obtuse.

The Grasshopper is effectively penalized under the new system for having skinny arms and skinny legs and ends up with an enormous frontal profile.

On top of that, PGI saw fit to also reduce or remove most of the quirks Grasshoppers had.


Volume is not the answer to mech balance, many mechs are worse - not only did they NOT get buffs to compensate for their new, clearly worse, sizes they were actually double nerfed at the same time losing quirk values.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 June 2016 - 12:23 PM.

[cazidin]

We got laser cannons on the black knight, that's good!

No, because it got taller, that's bad!

But the mounts are technically in a higher positon now, that's good!

No, you still have to expose most of your mech to fire at the enemy AND cover is less effective, that's bad!
But it's still a solid mech, that's good!
No, PGI nerf its quirks (again), that's bad!

That is my review of the Black Knight post rescale.

[Captain Artemis]

Jables McBarty, on 28 June 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Nah, I think they're fine where they are.

http://mwomercs.com/...but-the-locust/

Especially when Locust can charge into my legs, to the place where most of my weapons can't hit him, and I'm unable to for example - kick him? Punch him?

[Bud Crue]

Ultimax, on 28 June 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

And I'm still stunned there are people so dense who fail to realize that we do in fact understand volume, but do not understand how PGI failed to balance based on how badly some mechs are affected by their new sizes.


Here's a hint for the perpetually obtuse.

The Grasshopper is effectively penalized under the new system for having skinny arms and skinny legs and ends up with an enormous frontal profile.

On top of that, PGI saw fit to also reduce or remove most of the quirks Grasshoppers had.


Volume is not the answer to mech balance, many mechs are worse - not only did they NOT get buffs to compensate for their new, clearly worse, sizes they were actually double nerfed at the same time losing quirk values.

The OP's question was why is the Hopper and BK larger than assaults. We answered that. You are raising a whole 'nother topic. Balance of crappy mechs, or mechs that have been blatantly nerfed via the rescale, is something most of us HOPE that PGI will address, but it is a different topic than what the OP asked about.

[Idealsuspect]

PGI way to balance .. 2 steps forward 1 backward, 1 step forward 2 backward
Or balance with an hammer remove all quirks AND increase size in same time lol...

And they balance one time every 6 months coze they need data when if they did play their own game they will need only10 games for realize what is wrong

Edited by Idealsuspect, 28 June 2016 - 12:40 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

I find it far more disturbing that I now look up to firestarters in my Catapult

[Jables McBarty]

Captain Artemis, on 28 June 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

Especially when Locust can charge into my legs, to the place where most of my weapons can't hit him, and I'm unable to for example - kick him? Punch him?

Here's how I responded to this in the The Epic Locust Hate Thread:

Jables McBarty, on 27 June 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

"Bb-b-b-b-but Gman* tells me that the BNC-3M with all torso-mounted lazorbeams and the BLR-1G with only one arm-mounted ML are top-tier meta-mechs."

Welp, top-tier doesn't mean unbeatable. Sorry, but for every decision you make in MechWarrior there's both a benefit and a drawback.

Decision: Take an assault.
Benefit: Lots of armor, lots of weapons, ability to shred mediums and heavies.
Drawback: Very slow, dependent on other 'mechs to protect you from lights.

Decision: Mount all your weapons in the torso.
Benefit: Arms are purely for shield, strip armor to free tonnage for weapons/engines, only one reticule to worry about for targeting.
Drawback: Aiming is restricted to your torso Range-of-Movement.

So, I'm sorry, but if you take an assault with all high torso mounts, you are consciously making the decision to gimp yourself against lights.

If you are getting swarmed by locusts, then it is nobody's fault but your own.



*Read Gman's introductory paragraphs to his metamech tier lists, and beside acknowledging that he's human, he states that his tiers are based on aggregates--the "best and most consistent results"--and are not guarantees of a flawless, deathless victory.

Yes, we are talking about Black Knights/Grasshoppers and not "Tier 1" assaults, but the point stands--not every 'mech should be an effective counter to every other.

[Bud Crue]

Idealsuspect, on 28 June 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

PGI way to balance .. 2 steps forward 1 backward, 1 step forward 2 backward


Or balance with an hammer remove all quirks AND increase size in same time lol...

Like giving Victors 10 pts of extra st structure and saying "see they're fine now!". Balanced my a...