9 replies to this topic

[Blue Pheonix]

Hi experienced and skilled Shadowcat players who are tier one or two and under 5,000 in the medium category on the leaderboard,

I have noticed that a lot of the players who are high ranked on the leaderboard regarding mediums tend to run Shadow cats. I watch them play if I die but usually its at the tail end of a match so I don't see much.

I consider myself a decent pilot and I am trying out the Shadow cat but am fairly new to it. I love to snipe but its not really the style I am used to. I could get used to it though. I am a decent player at all weight classes and chassis types but I am trying to widen out my skill set even more. I have the shadowcat mastered but can not seem to get used to it. I have some questions for the really good Shadowcat players out there (tier 1 and under 5,000 in medium on the leaderboard who primarily run shadow cats:

You can answer these line by line in the reply if it makes it easier for you.

1. Why shadowcats over any other medium mech?
2. Is it the ECM and Masc?
3. Is it because it keeps you away from enemy fire but still able to dish damage (opposite of brawlers)?
4. What weapons do you run on it? PPCs?
5. Do you use any targeting computers?
6. How many heat sinks do you have on it?
7. What modules do you use?
8. Do you follow the group at first or, do you have pre planned spots on each map that you know of that you immediately run to and cycle through?
9. Do you try and flank primarily?
10. Do you run with the group primarily?
11. Is your primary target larger mechs then smaller mechs?
12. Do you take one or two shots and move to the next position or keep shooting from same position until you get return fire?
13. Any tips for how to better "lead your target" with PPCs or do you just try and focus on stationary targets?


I appreciate the help!

Thanks!

Edited by Blue Pheonix, 03 July 2016 - 01:50 PM.

[no one]

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

1. Why shadowcats over any other medium mech?
2. Is it the ECM and Masc?
3. Is it because it keeps you away from enemy fire but still able to dish damage (opposite of brawlers)?
4. What weapons do you run on it? PPCs?
5. Do you use any targeting computers?
6. How many heat sinks do you have on it?
7. What modules do you use?
8. Do you follow the group at first or, do you have pre planned spots on each map that you know of that you immediately run to and cycle through?
9. Do you try and flank primarily?
10. Do you run with the group primarily?
11. Do you shoot larger mechs primarily?
12. Do you take one or two shots and move to the next position or keep shooting from same position until you get return fire?
13. Any tips for how to better "lead your target" with PPCs or do you just try and focus on stationary targets?

1. Cool factor. Extremely mobile. JJs are almost useful on it.
2. ECM is helpful. MASC is something of a bad joke and I wish it could be removed.
- Better yet I wish 'Mechs didn't lose forward momentum like daft balloons when their feet leave the ground.
3. In the common 2 LPL config that's the case.
4. Most people will run a 2 LPL config. I run one ERPPC on the shoulder + 2erML + 2srm6
5. A targeting computer 1 is worth a ton in most Clan builds.
6. Never enough.
7. Seismic if I can. Sometimes a cool-shot or UAV. Probably LPL range mod on the meta build.
8. I PUG primarily, so following the ablative meat is the 'wise' choice. You can play overwatch on a ridge or chew at the enemy's flank, but if you're closer to the reds than the blues you probably done goofed.
9. No. Shadowcat's a poor solo flanker. It lacks the speed to disengage. MASC is useless for outrunning anything.
10. Usually, unless the team's headed into death valley or taking a ground bound slow route and I can get up and cover them from a high place.
11. I shoot threats, focus fire or soft targets first, if I've got time to think on it. Sometimes I'll shoot things that aren't angled to see where my fire's coming from.
12. I take shots until I think someone's noticed me. I don't wait for return fire if I can help it.
13. Kind of intuitive. Sniping slow targets works. Most people LPL it or run erLL. PPCs are nominally too hot and slow to reliably deal damage.

I'm probably not what you'd call a 'good' shadowcat pilot. The Nova's the more brutal infighter, and that's what I enjoy. The shadowcat's more of a defensive sniper 'Mech and I often overextend into fights. That, and I've only ever done PUG play so much of what I do is less 'coordinated and thoughtful' and more . . . reactive. I share armor more than most, but matches frequently boil down to me trying to cover team mates who are fighting until they die, then falling back. Re-positioning and cooling down, fighting lights off assaults, watching for the more timid members of team and then positioning myself behind them after I've used up a significant chunk of my armor.

Well that's my collective small change on your Shadowcat questions.

Edited by no one, 03 July 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[Mechwarrior7226071]

The champ Shadowcat build is OUTSTANDING. Most of the others are meh..

It makes a for a very good long range sniper.

1) Im a fan of a lot of other medium mechs, so I cant answer that. Different tools do different jobs
2) Helps a lot. ECM makes it easier to sneak around and avoid being spotted. MASC is great for jumping in and out of cover to hit your targets, or to bug out in a pinch.
3) That is how I play it. Shadowcat is fragile.
4) 2 large pulse. Easier to use than ER-PPC. Dmg potential is technically lower per shot, but you are a lot more likely to hit and you have less heat.
5) mk1. Again, I run mine almost identical to the trial champ
6) see above
7) radar derp, adv zoon, lg pulse range and cooldown. 2 cool shots
8) I usually try to flow with the fight, but on some maps I have some favorable points to start at.
9) No. I try to catch stragglers or support the main force
10) Depends, see #8
11) usually yes
12) Normally yes, unless I can tell the enemy has no idea where I am hitting them from OR they are too wrapped up fighting other people
13) best way to use PPCs is to dump em in the garbage and swap out to LG pulse lasers. Only time I would use PPCs is if either the mech is quirked for a very high PPC velocity boost OR I can stuff a MKVII tc in there. Even at that, I dont like em

[Blue Pheonix]

That may be my problem guys. I am using 2 PPC's and its hot. I noticed that a lot of the high tier (high ranking - less then 3,000 on the leaderboards) run with PPCs. I thought that is the go to build/weapon for this mech. It would be nice to hear from players who play this build (PPCs) and why.

Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it. I look forward to hearing from more people.

[ProfessorD]

1 and 2. I believe Shadowcats are the only mech in the game that can mount all of the special hardware - ECM, MASC, and JJ. This definitely gives them a unique ability to hit the enemy from unexpected angles and avoid return fire. Shadowcats also have a relatively small profile, a good shape for peeking over terrain, and hitboxes that are highly amenable to twisting to spread damage.

Also, ignore the haters - MASC is amazing. Use it in bursts when accelerating and turning - the acceleration buff is way more important than straight-line speed in 90%+ of maneuvers.

3. You sound like you've already got the basic idea - when used properly, a Shadowcat should almost never get hit by return fire.

4. There are two major types of effective Shadowcat build - 2x Large Pulse Laser and SRM 18. There are plenty of viable variations on those builds, like putting the 2nd LPL in the torso or bringing SPLs or flamers with your SRMs.

5. TC mk1 is useful on many clan builds.

6. I build like this:

a. Install the weapons I want.
b. Install ammo.
c. Install special equipment, like TC1.
d. Fill in remaining tonnage with heat sinks.

So, I end up with that many.

7. Seismic sensor first on every mech I drive. For LPL, I use advanced zoom second. For SRMs, I use Radar Deprivation second.

8. Depends on the map. Shadowcats have places on some maps that only they can reach due to their crazy JJ ability. The most important thing is to be dealing damage to the enemy continuously right from the beginning, since a Shadowcat's damage per second will be way lower than most other mechs.

9. This depends on what you picture when you say "flank". If you mean "charge the enemy from the side and get in their face", then no, never do this in a Shadowcat. If you mean "shoot the enemy from the side at an appropriate range", then sure, flank when they appear to be open on a side.

10. You always need to be aware of your team's movements, and sometimes it is a good idea to follow them. There's no hard and fast "always do it this way" answer to this type of question.

11. Whatever is in my line of fire.

12. It's a really good idea to reposition before taking return fire. Two shots then move is often a good technique.

13. Practice. You have to carefully watch how the enemy is moving, and you primarily watch for moments when they are moving directly toward or away from you, or when they momentarily stop. Hitting targets moving laterally just takes tons of practice.

[SpiralFace]

1: User preference really. Mediums are a pretty diverse lineup, and it all depends on what your looking for.
2: ECM is still considered one of the most tonnage efficient pieces of tech in the game that is an almost "must include" on everything that has the option to take it. MASC is actually very useful if you learn how to use it well. Now that it is buffed, its worth its weight, but it still makes the Shadowcat much more mobility focused.
3: You can if you want to outfit it like that. People like PPC's and LPL's to give it a bit of punch on a very mobile jumping platform, but the missile slots on it also make it a very good streak light hunter in certain configs.
5: meah, The Shadowcat is pretty tonnage strapped, so TC's are rarely worth it on this particular platform.
6: As much as you need. Different players have different preferances.
7: Seismic, UAV, and Artie strike. Everything past that is really up to you.
8: Depends on map or tactics. You want to flank when you can and be a nuisance to the team, but do not overextend yourself so much that you can get caught out on your own. Feel free to use your speed to get those flanks, but if you can't make it back to the main line within 20-30 seconds using your masc speed, you have probably over extended.
9: see above
10: Only if its a fast team. You are paying a lot for the mech's speed / mobility, if you aren't using it then your not using your mech efficiently, as there are many other slower mediums like the Hunchback IIC that are much better at sticking with the group and laying down firepower.
11: Depends on loadout and situations. Ultimately, target priority should go: 1:what everyone else is shooting at. 2: Crippled / almost dead mechs. 3: whatever is the biggest threat. 4: whatever allows you to deal the most amount of damage against the enemy team.
12: All depends on situation / positioning / map / team movements. Too many factors to really give an answer, the biggest thing is to just do what you feel is effective while always giving yourself an "out" in the event that the opponents try to run you down.
13: practice. The important thing to remember in MWO is that unlike other shooters that ray cast weapon projectiles from the "eyes" of the player, MWO has "true weapon" locations. So you might have to find yourself leading targets more on the left or right side depending on movement and weapon locations. Best is to practice on heavy targets till you feel comfortable and you can then start moving down to smaller targets.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Hi experienced and skilled Shadowcat players who are tier one or two and under 5,000 in the medium category on the leaderboard,

I have noticed that a lot of the players who are high ranked on the leaderboard regarding mediums tend to run Shadow cats. I watch them play if I die but usually its at the tail end of a match so I don't see much.

I consider myself a decent pilot and I am trying out the Shadow cat but am fairly new to it. I love to snipe but its not really the style I am used to. I could get used to it though. I am a decent player at all weight classes and chassis types but I am trying to widen out my skill set even more. I have the shadowcat mastered but can not seem to get used to it. I have some questions for the really good Shadowcat players out there (tier 1 and under 5,000 in medium on the leaderboard who primarily run shadow cats:

You can answer these line by line in the reply if it makes it easier for you.

I'm not Tier 1, and I'm no superhero, but may I attempt an opinion anyhow?

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1. Why shadowcats over any other medium mech?

Fast medium, Clan tech, ECM, MASC, JJs, and good mount locations for the weapons.

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2. Is it the ECM and Masc?

See above.

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3. Is it because it keeps you away from enemy fire but still able to dish damage (opposite of brawlers)?

Generally, that's A potential play style. However, some folks do load up the SRM6s and go brawlin' in their SadCats. Not ideal, but it CAN be done. MASC, speed, JJs, relatively small profile? Not bad. But the low weight and inherent limitations for durability limit it pretty severely, and there are faster Clan mechs out there for the Kamikaze assassin role.

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4. What weapons do you run on it? PPCs?

Some run PPCs. You'll have to make some hard choices, though. Even with FOUR DHS, the SadCat is kinda toasty for twin ERPPCs, and then there's ECM. Never mind that the Clan ERPPC goes like 1300 M/s, IIRC, for a 'projectile' speed. TComp can help with that, but every ton of TComp is one less DHS for an already-hot loadout. You'll want to play with it (mind OUT of the gutter, sir) and see what grabs you.

Twin LPLs is the go-to build. Longer duration, less range, less damage, but also less heat and it's hitscan. It's a compromise. All weapons are. I do something a little different with mine, and use the SHC-P LA omnipod with 3 MG and a ton of ammo, along with the LPLs in the RA and RT, and ECM. TCompI and fill out with DHS. Not bad for a SadCat. The MGs are for late-game, once things are opened up and you're hopefully one of the fresher mechs in the fight.

Twin ERLL is another possibility. I see some folks running TRIPLE ERLL, but that's toasty. My first 5-kill match was in a SHC with twin ERLL and (I think) a ERML. The sit-back-and-poke-all-day thing was a favorite of mine last year. I feel so dirty now, looking back.

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5. Do you use any targeting computers?

See above.

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6. How many heat sinks do you have on it?

As many as will fit, once the other equipment is installed. Clan tech, so yeah, LOTS of heat sinks is usually the thing to do.

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7. What modules do you use?

Seismic Sensor is a top choice. If you're trying to be sneaky-pokey, the last thing you want is to get snuck up on. Especially since this thing usually isn't carrying a formidable close-range loadout. For the mid-to-long-range energy builds, a second module for me might be Radar Derp (in spite of the ECM, because there are so many counters to ECM after all) or Target Info Gathering (solid choice for snipey mechs, since knowing where to hit an enemy mech CAN make a big difference when you have limited opportunity with low rate-of-fire weapons).

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8. Do you follow the group at first or, do you have pre planned spots on each map that you know of that you immediately run to and cycle through?

If it's the snipey-pokey builds, no, I generally tend to try to strike out on my own and locate the enemy. Haven't played the SadCat since the command wheel went live, but it's something I WISHED I had when I was playing them. Get out there, find the enemy, fire on him and harass him from a different angle than my teammates will be attacking from. Take away their cover, that is, or else force them to expend considerable effort to suppress me. Either way, have some heads turned when BluFor pushes. That's much harder to do when you're travelling WITH BluFor. Also, it tends to leave you out there for enemy light mechs (and a lone pokey SHC was a favorite target for me in the ACH days). So this all comes back to being observant and always keeping initiative in your favor. Easier said than done.

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9. Do you try and flank primarily?

By the gaming definition of 'flank', sorta but not really. That's still not a one-mech-out-of-twelve kind of thing. SadCat is at its best when it's on its own. And then, firing from a different direction and keeping the enemy on his toes. If doing that is what you call 'flanking', then sure, that's what I generally like to do in PUG drops in SadCat.

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10. Do you run with the group primarily?

NOPE.

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11. Is your primary target larger mechs then smaller mechs?

Larger. Apply the disparity in size and speed, and ply it as an advantage. I lose that advantage against smaller, faster mechs. And I'm not small enough to be LIKE them for up-close harassment of the big guys. So...

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12. Do you take one or two shots and move to the next position or keep shooting from same position until you get return fire?

It depends? I've been in situations where I put up 400+ damage without moving, save to step out and poke and then return to cover. And other times, I've had to move to a new roost after almost every shot. So, "It depends."

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13. Any tips for how to better "lead your target" with PPCs or do you just try and focus on stationary targets?

Practice. It's not the most ideal, but the Shooting Gallery and Onslaught features in the Mechwarrior Academy can help a good bit with that. The former has target mechs moving side-to-side at varying ranges, and the latter has them moving far-to-near. With and without jump jets, in both cases, and mechs of varying speeds. It can be quite helpful with learning to lead shots with PPCs and ballistic weapons, as well as nailing down your build for timing PPCs with ballistic weapons.

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I appreciate the help!

Thanks!

Hope it helps. Good luck, and follow up with us please! I'd love to hear how it turns out for you.

[PhoenixFire55]

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

1. Why shadowcats over any other medium mech?

Speed + MASC + ECM + JJs makes it a best combination for a meduim scout/harasser. It doesn't have enough hardpoints for your typical brawler light-ish mech (you can't boat SPLs etc.) which means you put less but bigger weapons on it, which in turn means greater range, and speed is sufficient to be able to snipe and reposition really well. The other thing you might consider is anti-light SSRM boat because you can nearly keep up with lights in terms of speed.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

2. Is it the ECM and Masc?

MASC really is a thing after they buffed it, not just for running around but for quick peeking and getting out of tight spots due to increased accel/deccel and turns. Needless to say ECM is very useful also (at least in PUGs).

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

3. Is it because it keeps you away from enemy fire but still able to dish damage (opposite of brawlers)?

Well as I said, unlike some silly sniper builds on smth like a Dire that can't keep up with any kind of push / nascar etc., SHC can do it easily. Its gotten smaller since the rescale, but it simply isn't a brawler, its not shaped for brawling and doesn't have anywhere near enough armor for a brawly medium, so you'll have to work mid and long range in SHC. Keep in mind that you can dish lots of damage in SHC, but most of it will be ineffective because of long range weaponry and laser spread, and you will need lots of time. In terms of DPS this mech is one of the worst.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

4. What weapons do you run on it? PPCs?

I've tryed three different sniper-ish builds with dual ERPPCs, dual ERLLs and dual LPLs.

ERPPCs one is great at 500-600m range and actually is effective at taking out what you want to take out rather then spray all over. The downside is it being very hot and you have to have great aim with PPCs because every shot you take is a huge investment in terms of heat. A small bonus is that its harder to detect where you are firing at when you use PPCs compared to lasers that allow people to trace your position looking at beams.

2xERLLs is one of those extreme range mechs, very good in CW/FW, does lots of damage but only half of it is actually useful due to silly clan laser duration. I've seen people run with 3xERLLs and its probably better for poking because alpha is bigger, but once again it runs too hot. Either way if a brawler light finds you alone its over.

2xLPLs one is probably my favorite, doesn't have as much max range, but you can work from 600-700m quite well. Short duration allows for better "trades" in case you are forced to trade rather than stand and shoot, helps with shooting pesky lights and such. Much more effective damage but still with some laser scanning if needed.

In terms of brawlers you can do 3xSRM6s or 3xSSRM4s/6s with a couple of lasers. Didn't like SRM version at all because glass cannon and because clan SRMs are generally trash compared to IS. As a Streak boat it works really well against lights because they can't simply run away from you fast, you can shoot while MASC'ing, etc. But of course it sux against anything bigger than 45t.

Pretty much anyhting else just doesn't seem to work due to lack of hardpoints and especially armor.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

5. Do you use any targeting computers?

Didn't use any myself because you can always rely on your aim and/or get closer into your effective range if needed. I'd rather have more efficient cooling, especially considering multiple JJs do heat you up. Still, you can probably fit in a Mk.1 or Mk.2 computer easy enough, especially with 2xERLLs as they only take 8 tons.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

6. How many heat sinks do you have on it?

As many as you can for all builds. One of the additional reasons I don't like the 3xERLL build is because you can't make it one-sided. On the other hand having both energy weapons on the right side (RT+RA) allows you to strip armor off the left arm and get an extra heat sink.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

7. What modules do you use?

Range modules for energy builds, cooldown modules for brawler builds. Plus your usual adv.zoom and seismic.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

8. Do you follow the group at first or, do you have pre planned spots on each map that you know of that you immediately run to and cycle through?

For sniper builds to do your damage you need more time because you don't have DPS. Thus you have to start shooting early, i.e. you need to be aggressive. You do have speed to run away from mechs that can kill you fast so you don't need to worry too much about overextending. Planned spots might be good for a completely static shootout, but a sniper who sits in one spot usually is a dead sniper, one airstrike can hurt you a lot. Still, if you are certain your opponent doesn't have any mechs with JJs you can get to places where nobody can touch you.

With brawler builds on the other hand you stay with the team and clean-up open mechs fast using your mobility and/or cover the rear from lights in a Streak boat. Still, it generally is a very bad idea to fight more than 1 mech at a time.

Situations vary of course, for example if you find a single Dire in some sort of rough terrain, among buildings etc. you have enough mobility to do whatever you want with it. I once danced with a Dire for 2-3 mins inside a cap point on Polar, we were 30m away from each other with only that resource extractor between us, but it couldn't do anything coz I could easily always keep it between me and him.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

9. Do you try and flank primarily?

Doesn't really matter if you flank, or shoot from the main group as long as you are doing useful things. As I said, snipers don't have enough DPS so they have to shoot all the time to produce damage. Best thing is to find an angle where you can shoot enemies that are pinned down by the rest of your team. They won't pay you too much attention and you'll either be able to damage them badly or force them out of cover and into your teammates.

Flanking in a brawler SHC is more along the lines of high-risk high-reward. Major problem is same, lack of armor, if you find a brawler Griffin or smth like that you are toast. On the other hand if you find smth like an LRM boat with no backup weapons ... Important thing to keep in mind is how exactly are you going to run away if you find smth you can't take out. It is preferrable to always have some sort of high elevation you can jump on/over real close so you can get away from most things just in case.

Either way, open spaces are sniper friends and closed spaces are brawler friends, as always.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

10. Do you run with the group primarily?

If you mean staying with the team, not neccesserily. If you mean playing in a group rather than solo, then no, surely not in a SHC due to lack of DPS.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

11. Is your primary target larger mechs then smaller mechs?

Mechs that can't shoot back due to lack of range or torso twist angles for sniper builds. Mechs that don't have enough effective DPS to duel you for brawler builds. Cocky lights for SSRM boats. Isolated targets in general.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

12. Do you take one or two shots and move to the next position or keep shooting from same position until you get return fire?

Well if its a good position and nobody is firing at you then why not keep shooting. However you have to be able to keep shooting, if you are 1km away from the enemy group and they are about to go round the corner to have full cover from you, you'll need to travel that 1km (and probably more) to start shooting them again, so you might as well start moving in advance. Same way staying in one spot you are risking enemy nascar catching you. If the enemy doesn't see you its best to take one shot and hide, then repeat until they see you. Doing that its best to target the last mech in enemy formation, so that his buddies don't see your beams/PPCs etc. The most important thing however is you having angles on already damaged mechs. If your teammates core a mech and it rolls behind cover from them you have to use your mobility to find an angle on it and finish it off.

Blue Pheonix, on 03 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

13. Any tips for how to better "lead your target" with PPCs or do you just try and focus on stationary targets?

It is always more effective to shoot stationary targets regardless of what mechs and weapons you use. Clan PPCs can be tricky because their speed changes if you got target computer. However, its just a matter of practice, once you get used to them you'll be able to hit anything, and splash damage on CERPPC is really good at taking out torsoes even when mechs are trying to cover them with arms and general twisting. Other thing you can do with PPCs is help your big guys with "trades", if you know for example that your assault or heavy is trading with an enemy mech and they are peeking from same spots you can jump from behind the cover your buddy is using to shoot the near stationary enemy at the moment of trade. Jump-sniping is still a thing for SHC with PPCs, and this mech is really good at it.

P.S. I might need to mention that I currently don't have a single game registered on the leaderoard in any medium mech, let alone SHC. However I do have about 45 mastered mediums, including 3 mastered SHC's, and currenty is in the top 1000 in overall standings (which probably becomes top 200 when you filter out people with under 10 games).

So, hope any of this helps.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 04 July 2016 - 01:25 AM.

[aGentleWarrior]

After your post I've started to search those leaderboards...

funny my K/D ratio:
Medium = 18267
Heavy = 1749

What a difference!

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Medium might be a bit skewed for a couple months, man. The leaderboard launched alongside the Phoenix Hawk, with a leaderboard event. Coming up in two weeks? The VIPER. "Protected by Viper, stand back!" Sorry. Anyhow, more leaderboard event means more skew on the leaderboard. I'd give it a few months before paying TOO much attention to the leaderboards, and hope that they eventually put in a minimum number of matches played to even appear on the leaderboards at all--you'll notice that a lot of the high-rank players on there are on 4 or fewer matches, some on only one.