25 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

So I was watching a streamer last night with a few hundred followers. He was a legendary backer but had not played in quite some time.

One of the players in his group started asking questions about engines, and to my surprise none of them knew the differences between standard, XL, and clan XL.

Which got me thinking, are those differences actually explained anywhere in the game? I couldn't remember if the tutorial covered it.

Starting to feel like when you click "play" for your first mach it should instead take you to the proper threads on this website to learn the game lol.

[Koniving]

Reserving this spot.
Will explain both battletech and mwo versions which are fairly different.

Edit: Alright. First pass. MWO's version.

Engines, STD and XL, both have 15 health points damaged only through "crits" or critical damage dubbed in part due to the slots in Battle tech being called critical slots.
This 15 health has never had functional repercussions, meaning you may have had dozens of matches with he engine destroyed and never knew it. After all nothing happens.

It did once have a single function, to bill you. In any closed beta footage predating August 2012, you may find that people earned around 300,000 thousand often without premium time, and my personal record was 3 million thanks to a bug that never stopped rewarding you for spotting so long as you kept doing it and rewarded you for it for every single launcher fired by every single player on your team at your target.. but side tangent. Back on track, assault mechs usually earned around 600 to 800 thousand cbills for a good victory. Lights around 300 thousand until the reward thing. What isn't often shown due to crashes if recording between end match and back to the lab, lights paid about 150,000 in repairs (my 3 mil earning commando cost me 27 thousand to repair), while those assaults usually spent about 400 to 600 thousand. Half of that is their engines were destroyed mid battle.

Now if you had an Atlas K and took out the CASE, you paid almost 1 million to fix your barely damaged mech because of the engine. With CASE the was cut in half if CT was destroyed or 2/3rds if ST was destroyed. Thus CASE with XL engines.

Of course none of this matters anymore.

Currently... XL engines weigh half as much as STD engines but are larger. Will get into that on the Battle tech section. The Inner Sphere XL engine causes you to die with any torso section being destroyed. The Clan XL requires both side torsos or the center torso to be destroyed to "die" by engine. The IS model takes 12 slots (6, center and 3 per side torso). The Clan model takes 10 slots (6 missile, 2 per side torso).

Other facts:. The engine includes the weight of any heatsinks contained within, the weight of the corresponding gyro, and I can't recall if it also includes then3 tons for the cockpit or not. Yet, because it excludes any of the ten required heatsinks not contained inside the engine itself the "60" engine for urban mech stock is negative weight. This is because battle tech includes the weight of ten heatsinks in every engine even if you must add them separately (also why we have the ten heatsink rule).

Alright. In a separate post (to avoid confusion), I will explain the XL engines as per source material which will be good to know as Battle tech the computer game will be coming out next year.

Edited by Koniving, 05 July 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[TercieI]

Roughneck45, on 05 July 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

So I was watching a streamer last night with a few hundred followers. He was a legendary backer but had not played in quite some time.

One of the players in his group started asking questions about engines, and to my surprise none of them knew the differences between standard, XL, and clan XL.

Which got me thinking, are those differences actually explained anywhere in the game? I couldn't remember if the tutorial covered it.

Starting to feel like when you click "play" for your first mach it should instead take you to the proper threads on this website to learn the game lol.

There's one tip, I believe, but other than that you have to rely on the manual. Oh. Wait.

[Roughneck45]

Koniving, on 05 July 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

Reserving this spot.
Will explain both battletech and mwo versions which are fairly different.

Only if you want to

I was just more in shock that such a fundamental important mechanic of the game is mentioned almost nowhere.

[Metus regem]

Roughneck45, on 05 July 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Only if you want to

I was just more in shock that such a fundamental important mechanic of the game is mentioned almost nowhere.

It is but it isn't, this is due to MWO being listed and advertised as "A Battle Tech Game".

In Battle Tech, one of the fastest ways to kill a mech is get three engine critical hits. This is to represent that enough damage has been done to the fusion engine that it can no longer maintain the required magnetic shielding required to keep in the heat and particles required for fusion to take place. This is done by removing the armour (or through armour critical hits), and landing blows agaist the enigne or destroying the compartment (location) containing engine critical locations. (CT for Standard and Compact, LT/CT/RT for LFE, XL and XXL engines).

Engines come in various types.

Standard Fusion Engine (SFE)
100% engine weight
6 Critical locations, all in the Center Torso.
One of the toughest engines

Compact Fusion Engine (CFE)
200% weight of a SFE
3 Critical Locations, all Center Toroso
The toughest engine
Found in TRO 3072

Light Fusion Engine (LFE)
75% of the weight of a SFE
10 critical locations, 2 LT 6 CT 2 RT
Inner Sphere copy of Clan XL engine
Prototype found in 3053

Clan EXtra Light Engine (cXL)
50% of the weight of a SFE
10 Critical Locations, 2 LT 6 CT 2 RT
Clan version of the Extra Light Engine
introduced with TRO 3050 and the coming of the Clans, were meant for a GM used campaign big bad.

Extra Light Engine (XL)
50% of the weight of a SFE
12 critical locations, 3 LT 6CT 3 RT
Star League half weight engine
Trades durability for speed and fire power
Re-introduced in 3035

Clan Extra Extra Light Engine (cXXL)
33% of the wright of a SFE
Generates extra heat (2/4/6/ standing/walking/running)
14 critical locations, 4 LT 6 CT 4 RT
A case of why? It only offers only disadvantage over the cXL
Found in Dark age mechs

Extra Extra Light Engine(XXL)
33% of the weight of a SFE
Generates extra heat (2/4/6/ standing/walking/running)
18 critical locations, 6 LT 6 CT 6 RT
A case of why? It only offers only disadvantage over the XL
Found in Dark Age mechs



In MWO, engines are not truly subject to critical hits, as well as containing cockpit and gyro weight, this means that to shut down a mech, the fastest way is to blow out the section containing at least three engine critical locations.

Edited by Metus regem, 05 July 2016 - 08:35 AM.

[Void Angel]

(Looking at them, XXL Engines would be situationally useful in heat-efficient builds that need weight more than heat and aren't intended to sustain heavy combat. Think Gaussraven-type builds. Not too attractive for me either, but that's what they're designed for.)

Roughneck45, on 05 July 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

I was just more in shock that such a fundamental important mechanic of the game is mentioned almost nowhere.

What a great observation that you should post in the Feature Suggestions and Mechwarrior Academy sections of the forums!

Though you're right - XL properties were something we just all memorized, particularly once the Clans were released. I haven't had to think about them (and thus try to look them up) for years - and the game really needs an official database to explain how basic mechanics work. Things like critical hits are especially arcane and impenetrable to the beginner.

[Koniving]

Spoiler

... I had just finished my battle tech side of it with some side facts (such as override has nothing to do with how it has ever been used in mech warrior games). But it wouldn't post. In another window MWO shows me as logged out. So I logged in and the browser crashed.

...sigh.

Also had a history showing why clans have better ones. And more importantly, that they weren't really better at all (in full battle tech rules)

Spoiler used to preserve the original content of this post.
Edit:. Will reuse this post for the battle tech side of XL engines.

Edit: Saving to post the history before I lose it.
-----------------------
Battletech version.

Fusion engine.
Note: It is stated that fusion engines come in a variety of different shapes and sizes and that mechs generally can only accept two or three different brands of similar engines, so while this Centurion produced and manufactured by Corean Enterprises may use the Nissan 200 Fusion engine also used by the Komiyaba/Nissan General Motors produced/manufactured Hunchback and will generally also be compatible with VLAR and and GM, it can't use Magnas of any of the same ratings or most other brands because it would require gutting out parts of the mech's skeleton to fit their shape. Meanwhile a mech that uses Magna brand fusion engines can't use Nissan or GM, but could use VLAR and Pitban. But this only matters if you're going into hardcore lore optional rules and even then it only matters in long term campaigns and difficulty acquiring things (I noticed mechs that stock are high in battle value tend to have hard to acquire engine brand names with extremely low compatibility, funny eh?)

STD engine info.

• Destroyed when 3 slots are hit.

XL engine info

• (IS and Clan) Destroyed when any 3 slots are hit. (Source of the "IS dies from ST, Clan dies from two ST" rule MWO uses.)
  
• Sarna states it has "lighter" or weaker shielding, which is part of the reason for extra crit slots. There is no source listed for this statement.
  
• Can't get the tech manual entry at this time (virus on computer preventing boot up).
  
• Could be interchanged between mechs within a weightclass, but not with other weight classes. A VLAR XL 300 for a Jenner is less than 4 million cbills. A VLAR XL 300 for an Atlas is over 12 million cbills.
  
  • Above is not true if you're using brand specific restrictions; this is an optional hardcore lore rule but basically even within weight classes, if X brand isn't compatible with Y mech, you're screwed
• If you think that is extreme, the price of an Atlas K in MWO is 13 million cbills. The price of an Atlas K in Battletech which has a VLAR XL 300 engine is over 25 million cbills.
  
• Clans used XL engines prominently (despite their even heftier price tag), because of a few reasons.
  
  • 1) Prices are listed in Comstar Bills [C-bills] and as such, imply the price for an Inner Sphere purchaser to acquire the engine and as such you've got to expect inflation.
    
  • 2) Though there is an economic system for Clan merchants and exchange of goods (See "High Finance"), Clans fundamentally use "Bloodright" (I say this kinda mockingly, but effectively your status within the Clan that is your 'Honor', affords you a certain value of priveledge. This includes choice/ownership in one or more 'Mechs, a certain value in repairs after each sortie (sometimes less 'priveledged' pilots would have to sortie a few times to get a full repair), etc. The concept of a Clan pilot, especially a 'Trueborn' having to buy something is preposterous. "What is this 'money' that you speak of? I take what is mine by Right!" This is exclusive to the Warrior Caste.
    
  • 3) XL engines are extremely easy to come by for the Clans, since almost every Clan owns multiple factories to serve a few million people per Clan (where a total of less than 70 factories exist across the entire Inner Sphere, where the total population per faction exceeds whatever comes four notches after hundred-trillions. Caph, alone, one of the most populated planets in the Inner Sphere, comes to 3,000,000,000. That is 3 trillion on a single planet, and there are thousands of populated planets within the Inner Sphere alone, for which only 70 factories exist producing XL engines for it.)
    
  • 4) The same metals used for their ballistic weapons are also some of those used in Clan XL engines, just in higher quantities.
• An XL engine with CASE in MWO is a waste of tonnage. An XL engine without at least 1 ton worth of CASE in Battletech is throwing away more cbills than it takes to buy 5 mechs and will almost certainly doom the pilot to a lame death.
  
• Some mechs, fluff-wise (not TT rules-wise), can never equip XL engines since there wouldn't be any room left. One such mech is the Hunchback. (It is compatible with the Light Fusion Engine though).
  
  • Note: the reason the Hunchback is not compatible with an XL engine in fluff is the mech's small size (its height roughly less than 1 meter taller than the Nova's 8.3m). The visible 'cockpit' holds just the shoulders and head of the pilot. The mech is stored externally in the drum mounted on the left torso. For the 4SP, the drum is mounted on the center torso and smaller since it only has to hold 1 ton of SRMs (100 missiles) instead of its 2 tons of AC/20 ammo.
    Spoiler

    Meanwhile its AC/20 is one of the largest calibers in existence (180mm; the average is 120mm and the 150mm is a 10 shot to do 20 damage weapon; a 190mm Heavy Rifle does 6 effective damage against military grade armor with a single shot, so it stands to reason a single blow from the HBK-4G's AC/20 delivers approximately 5 damage, so with 5 uses per ton and 4 shots per reload/use, we're looking at a much bigger drum to hold 2 Ammo Bins and Feeds holding a total of 40 bullets, compared to the smaller SRM drum of 100 missiles; this is until the Tomodzuro AC/20s were replaced with the faster shooting but significantly less powerful per bullet Kali-Yama Big Bore 120mm which is easier to come by and replace, repair or unjam [yes, unjam despite being an AC/20]).

So: Generally, XL engines are quite forbidding and make you very fragile. In exchange the weight savings are amazing, provided you don't mind the risk of going broke or if you're using them on an assault mech for the highest possible return for your weight savings, having that engine in exchange for losing the funds to have anywhere between 3 and 12 additional mechs or some 16+ tanks (which a single tank like the Behemoth [Armor] variant has more armor than an Atlas can possibly carry [Atlas max armor: 306; Behemoth's armor is 336] and I had one which after losing one of its tracks and becoming immobile, still killed 5 out of 8 50 ton medium mechs, cripled 2 of the surviving 3 50 tonners and rendered them immobile, and killed a 100 ton mech before it was destroyed by a mech who stood behind it and kept shooting for 50 seconds. One tank did this and it only cost 3,028,667 cbills. With 1 C-Bill's value being 8 US Dollars in 2010, that price is 2,422,933.60 US Dollars for this tank. The engine of an Atlas K, a 300 rating VLAR brand XL Fusion Engine for 100 ton mechs being 12 million cbills is worth: 96,000,000 U.S Dollars. Just the engine.)

Now imagine the economics involved here. It would ruin the economies of entire planets to field half a dozen of these engines for the IS. Just the engines.

Meanwhile to a Clanner, all (s)he needs is about a hundred kills of his friends in person, by hand or melee weapon comparable to whatever weapon they use, followed by proving his or herself in the slaughter of at least one fellow pilot in real combat to be granted a mech likely with an XL engine, and in the slaughter of dozens of other comrades to get a bigger mech -- after having slaughtered dozens of enemy pilots in glorious combat to earn the right to kill his comrades in a Trial of Position.

Thankfully a ton of AC/2 ammo can for six AC/2s last up to 75 seconds of nearly continuous fire (if we include the stall times of cassette/magazine switching). 1 ton of ammo, 75 seconds of fire for 6 AC/2s. In MWO I think you'd be lucky if it lasts 20 seconds and you get more ammo per ton, in fact you get 75 "uses" versus Battletech's 45 "Uses". Of course a use in MWO is 1 shot, a use in Battletech is a full magazine. (Edit: Turns out you can get 54 seconds of constant use in a non-quirked mech with 1 AC/2 and 1 ton of ammo, thanks to 75 shots instead of 45. With 45 shots per ton, MWO's AC/2 unquirked would last you 32.4 seconds.)
Meanwhile two Large Lasers produce a total of 64 heat in 40 seconds in Battletech; in MWO two Large Laser produce a total of approximately 131.6 heat (say approximately because you can use them approximately 9.41...etc long number times) in the same 40 seconds.
So XL engines aren't really needed in Battletech, because ammo needs aren't that bad and neither are thermal needs. But if you are rich, they are a great way to cram a lot of damage in a short time span, or to go insanely fast in a world where the fastest mechs go 128 kph unless using an uber expensive XL engine with armor so paper thin that a single Gauss Rifle could blow your leg off!

-------------------------

Additional Facts about engines, mechs and weapons.

• All engines are considered "destroyed" when 3 slots are hit. If five (or six?) slots are damaged, the engine is completely unsalvageable. The exception is in XL engines, if there is no CASE, the engine is supposed to be unsalvageable, this is with only 3 crits. Regardless of CASE, if the CT is destroyed the engine is automatically lost.
  
• With Through Armor Crits, IS and Clan XL engines are roughly equal and to be used at the owner's peril. Many Clan mechs didn't survive long enough to lose both side torsos before the engine went kaput. None would survive this long if even a single Gauss Rifle was in the field and allowed to survive.
  
  • Hollander is King.
• In MWO, the general population believes you must have an XL engine to be competitive and survive. In Battletech, it is the general consensus that you cannot use an XL engine if you want to be competitive and survive.
  
• In a campaign with through armor crits, a mech with an XL engine be it IS or Clan is considered a coffin unless it is in a mech of 75 tons or greater, with near max armor. To quote someone, "I'd feel safer in a Locust with a broken leg and 1 ton of armor" (1 ton of armor in Battletech is 16 points of armor or 32 points in MWO.) I'm not sure if I'd go that far, but a Locust with stock armor (4 tons, 64 points) I'd totally feel pretty safer in it than most medium and light mechs using XL engines. Except maybe a Shadowhawk 5M; I feel pretty safe in one of those.
  
• Just a single engine crit generates 5 units of heat every 10 seconds. That is 1/6th of the maximum heat any mech can take at any one instant.
  
• In one match I received 2 engine crits during a battle as a Nova that survived a building collapse from SRM-volleys and a few other sticky situations. Every 10 seconds I was receiving 10 units of heat. It was so bad that I kept pushing the heatsink threshold (which in Battletech is completely separate from Mech Threshold), causing heatsinks to melt under the heatsink taxing rule. In about 2 minutes time, I had melted 9 double heatsinks. By some miracle my pilot lasted a little over 2 minutes before passing out, right at my final stand against Lordred's Battlemaster in the Phoenix Pack versus Clan Wave 1 Tier 1 battle we did. Pilot died by stomping.
  
• "Override" has nothing to do with the reactor shutdown mechs experience when overheating. Battletech in lore, tabletop and RPG, has no override functionality for shutting down. When pilots override, it is done before overheating, before shutdowns, and specifically is a Weapons Lock Override, as over 90% of mech manufacturers install a safety feature that locks out weapon control when a mech reaches a high level of heat to prevent the risk of an emergency shutdown, as over 45% of the time when a pilot dies it is during an emergency shutdown from firing too frantically (and this is while using the override; so imagine how many would be dying if they didn't have to override a weapons lock).
  
• '
  Spoiler

  (Side fact: 20% of pilots are expected to die from Ejection failures and other ejection-related deaths. I have personally lost pilots on several occasions due to hitting trees in deep forestry during ejection, more due to ejecting straight into buildings [mostly automtic ejections, manual ejections aren't so bad] and once ejected into a fire to be burned to death. I have also killed a pilot in a mech using an auto-rifle, which is a soldier-handled weapon while on foot; this pilot was already badly wounded due to an exposed cockpit.)
  
  
• A shutdown from overheat lasts as long as it takes to reach 46.67% threshold from 100%.
  
• A manual reboot can be done beforehand with the possibility of failure. Failures to recover from shutdown are usually attributed to both a physically exhausting boot proceedure (think Alien Isolation's power generators. Crank 3 times, push button. "Did it work? Dang, gotta try again. C'mon! Start dang it! He's coming right at me! Start! Start! START!!!!!" Boom; killed after 30 seconds of failed attempts to restart. You don't mess around with the risk to overheat.)
  
• Part of the start up proceedure is unlocking the Neuro Helm. An example unlock proceedure is "Raise right hand, turn head left." It is stated it can be "as complicated as you wish, but is usually kept simple since you must do it every time you start your mech and you may need to escape danger with a powered down mech someday." Failure to unlock the Neuro Helm can still allow you to pilot the mech, however it is supposed to be a plus 4 to all piloting manuever difficulty (basically your average veteran mechwarrior would have an incredibly hard time and might trip from just trying to walk 30 meters.) Trying to use a locked neurohelm by guessing the movement pattern required to unlock it can result in brain damage or even death. Devices exist to 'hack' neuro helms, however they take "1 to 2 hours" to work, meaning if you did manage to get the mech started at all you'd have to spend at least 360 "turns" in tabletop with that debuff for Grand Theft Mech.
  
• Mechs automatically side step (metamorphically), tilt, and lean to avoid colliding with most geometrical objects thanks to a Diagonistic Interpretation Computer. As such, things like not crushing cars is automatic, unless the neuro helmet detects that it is your intention to crush the car in which case aiming the leg to do this is automatic.
  
• Back to shutdowns: Mechs have a chance to fall over when forced into emergency shutdowns. This is because the mech's muscles seize and lock, so whatever position the mech is in is what position it will remain in; there's no downward tilt. Of course, shutting down mid-stride can be really painful as you take the tumble. Most damage I ever received from a tumble and 90 meter skid was 35 damage. I also destroyed a building in the process which collapsed. This is in addition to having a leg ripped off.
  
• Mechs have a finite amount of fuel. The exact amount of fuel for fusion engines apparently varies but it is based on the number of rods it has available which is an entirely fluff aspect. A mech with heavy energy use (lots of lasers and battle) might be able to run for 3-5 days of non-continuous use. A similar mech though different variant with only one or two laser weapons managed to run for 31 days of non-continuous use. Then again the validity of this is questionable since another mech using a converted Fuel Cell engine (which lasts about two or three hours with cruise speeds) refueled using water in order to collect Hydrogen. Though the power difference between the two is immense. Because of the Fusion Reactor's fuel longevity, it is almost never mentioned or even considered.
  
• "Stackpoling" is the term used to describe an engine going nuclear. Beyond one (or more) stories written by Stackpole, the Fusion engines don't go nuclear (Fission is another story). (This is also done in Gundam: SeeD; in which the pilot miraculously survives unharmed....? How?) They can and do, however, explode despite what PGI might want you to believe. The explosion however only usually reaches 60 to 90 meters (1 to 2 hexes but I urge you to remember that the hex you're standing in is 30 meters, too, and the average mech is about 4 to no more than 9 meters wide). It does vaporize the mech to an unsalvageable state. The rule, however, is still called "Stackpoling." An ammo explosion however has reached well over 240 meters with its damage in my experience and may sometimes obliterate the mech but usually leaves something salvageable. (An epic pilot death of my Summoner pilot was caused by a Thunderbolt's ammo explosion as flying debris crushed the cockpit [Head] of my Summoner.)
  
• An ER PPC, like lasers, can cause unintentional fires. One such fire caused by a single missing ER PPC claimed over 300 meters of forestry in less than 2 minutes; the smoke was so bad that weapon accuracy had less than 15% chances to hit at 60 meters away, and lasers automatically did zero damage since smoke particles reduce laser effectiveness.
  
• Another much smaller fire in tall grass plains also caused by an ER PPC caused 2 units of heat to a Battlemaster that stood in it.
  
• The Long Tom that everyone dreads so much in Faction Play, is a mech-mountable weapon. It is 30 tons, consumes 30 critical slots across multiple body parts, generates 20 heat in a single firing (2/3rds a mech's maximum safe heat without considering the cooling for heatsinks), and contains 5 shots per ton of ammo. However unlike Battletech's AC/20 which is 5 reloads of many shots per ton of ammo, the Long Tom really does only have 5 bullets per ton. It also has a range of "30 maps." Which is why in MWO you cannot run up and destroy the enemy Long Tom, it is 30 maps away in safety. Interestingly -- The Long Tom cannot be aimed at a range beyond its original map without a TAG being used to spot a target.

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2016 - 01:19 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Koniving, on 05 July 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

... I had just finished my battle tech side of it with some side facts (such as override has nothing to do with how it has ever been used in mech warrior games). But it wouldn't post. In another window MWO shows me as logged out. So I logged in and the browser crashed.

...sigh.

Also had a history showing why clans have better ones

I hate hate hate being logged out mid post! Especially when its a long post that goes down the drain!

Anyway- hope it doesnt sway you from posting your epic post! Your posts are definatelly good reads!

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 05 July 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

... I had just finished my battle tech side of it with some side facts (such as override has nothing to do with how it has ever been used in mech warrior games). But it wouldn't post. In another window MWO shows me as logged out. So I logged in and the browser crashed.

...sigh.

Also had a history showing why clans have better ones. And more importantly, that they weren't really better at all (in full battle tech rules)

Always, always copy the post before you post it.... very important for long posts...

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Metus regem, on 05 July 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

Always, always copy the post before you post it.... very important for long posts...

But then I wont have an excuse to stand up out of my chair with fist at chin level, teeth clenched, with my veins popping out of my forehead cursing the skies to no end!

[Metus regem]

Void Angel, on 05 July 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

(Looking at them, XXL Engines would be situationally useful in heat-efficient builds that need weight more than heat and aren't intended to sustain heavy combat. Think Gaussraven-type builds. Not too attractive for me either, but that's what they're designed for.)
What a great observation that you should post in the Feature Suggestions and Mechwarrior Academy sections of the forums!

Though you're right - XL properties were something we just all memorized, particularly once the Clans were released. I haven't had to think about them (and thus try to look them up) for years - and the game really needs an official database to explain how basic mechanics work. Things like critical hits are especially arcane and impenetrable to the beginner.

The big problem for XXL engines, is they are horrendously expensive like 5 times the cost of the same size XL engine, on top of taking up so many critical spaces, they often leave you with next to no room for heat sinks and weapons. One of the most perplexing uses of an XXL is found on the Mad Cat Mk. IV.

Functionally the Mad Cat Mk. IV Prime is identical to the Timber Wolf Delta.

Both use twin ERPPC's with 4xSSRM6 (2 forward facing, 2 rear facing)

Both use a 375 series engine (375XL in the Timber Wolf Delta, 375XXL in the Mad Cat Mk. IV)

The Mad Cat Mk. IV uses FL armour, giving it a damage reduction of 1 point per 5 damage taken per hit (16t of the stuff I might add at a cost of 12 crits)

The Mad Cat Mk. IV has 17 DHS giving it a maximum heat sink of 34 points/round The Timber Wolf Delta packs 15 DHS giving it a maximum of 30 points/round. Now this may seem like the Mk. IV has the advantage over the Delta, until we factor in just walking the Mk. IV generates 3 more heat than the Delta, 4 more points on the Mk. IV if both are running.

Now for the funny part, the Delta is more expensive in terms of BV, 3701 for the Delta, 3700 for the Mk. IV, this is the reverse when looking at C-bill Value, the Delta is 24.3m c-bills, the Mk. IV is 89.9m c-bills! Those BV values are if both are piloted by a standard clan mech warrior (3/4 pilot/gunnery).


For the life of me, I cannot find a logical reason for the Mk. IV to even exist, the fluff reasoning is the old Timber Wolf was having trouble keeping up with star mates, yet both use the same 375 series engine. So in short the XXL leaves the new Mk. IV Mad Cat at a disadvantage over it's older sibling, it is no faster, it runs hotter and is more vulnerable to destruction thanks to the XXL engine it uses.

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 05 July 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

But then I wont have an excuse to stand up out of my chair with fist at chin level, teeth clenched, with my veins popping out of my forehead cursing the skies to no end!

Have a kid or two, that will give you many reasons to do it...

[Void Angel]

Er, the Mk IV puts up with the XXL's drawbacks in exchange for adding16 tons of scaled down WarShip armor and extra heat sinks to buy off the extra heat (it cools faster when standing still, and slower when running.) So while it has more engine slots, it's got the same armor, the same weapons, faster cooling when standing still, and twenty percent damage reduction. That's why it exists - I haven't read the fluff materials, but "keeping up" can mean mobility, or it can mean holding your own in combat.

Whether its c-bill cost and point cost in the (flawed) Battle Value system are appropriate for that advantage, I cannot say.

[Metus regem]

Void Angel, on 05 July 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

Er, the Mk IV puts up with the XXL's drawbacks in exchange for adding16 tons of scaled down WarShip armor and extra heat sinks to buy off the extra heat (it cools faster when standing still, and slower when running.) So while it has more engine slots, it's got the same armor, the same weapons, faster cooling when standing still, and twenty percent damage reduction. That's why it exists - I haven't read the fluff materials, but "keeping up" can mean mobility, or it can mean holding your own in combat.

Having fought Mk IV's with Delta Timbers in TT, the Mk. IV holds up well, until she has an armour breach, then she folds like like paper. First engine crit, kiss good by your cooling advantage when standing still....

Hell once that armour on ST is gone, she becomes crit seeking weapon bait.... I've seen a LB-20 blow out 3 engine crits with one cluster shot, and things like AP ammo equipped Maulers (in a c3 lance) do horrible, horrible things to them in short order from well outside of the Mk. IV's weapon range.


Anyways as I pointed out, the combat effectiveness of the Delta to the Mk. IV prime, is slightly in the Delta's favor, but close enough I would call it an even fight.

[Void Angel]

So it's armored like a 90-tonner, but takes more damage to its torsos once they are breached. Whether or not that 20% damage reduction is worthwhile will depend heavily on chance, allied units, terrain, what weapons have been brought to the table, and how well the Mk IV is positioned - and that can only be evaluated statistically, either with mathematical analysis or a very large sample of games.

[Metus regem]

Void Angel, on 05 July 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

So it's armored like a 90-tonner, but takes more damage to its torsos once they are breached. Whether or not that 20% damage reduction is worthwhile will depend heavily on chance, allied units, terrain, what weapons have been brought to the table, and how well the Mk IV is positioned - and that can only be evaluated statistically, either with mathematical analysis or a very large sample of games.

As well as personal preference. Me, don't find the extra heat and vulnerability worth the trade off for 20% damage reduction.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 05 July 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

.

For the life of me, I cannot find a logical reason for the Mk. IV to even exist, the fluff reasoning is the old Timber Wolf was having trouble keeping up with star mates, yet both use the same 375 series engine. So in short the XXL leaves the new Mk. IV Mad Cat at a disadvantage over it's older sibling, it is no faster, it runs hotter and is more vulnerable to destruction thanks to the XXL engine it uses.

This is easy. Catalyst.

But one thing to remember is while currency is used in the Clans, fact is "money" isn't really a thing for the Clans and their war machine. even so the only reason this thing exists is "because we can."

It's like Atlases with 30 tons in 8 SRM-6s, when the machine simply isn't big enough (Just over 13 meters, about 14 meters or truly massive at 15 meters -- depending on the source) to hold both an SRM6 and a proper 20 tube LRM20 launcher. They exist because "we can" with construction rules. Customization rules (customizing a mech in a campaign) wouldn't really allow such silliness without a lot of punishment. Ever seen the tag lines about mech mortar, srm, lrm, mrm sizes and interchangeability? It's practically a pseudo Soft Point system. You could put anything there but it's easier to stick within a given soft-point size.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 06 July 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

This is easy. Catalyst.

But one thing to remember is while currency is used in the Clans, fact is "money" isn't really a thing for the Clans and their war machine. even so the only reason this thing exists is "because we can."

It's like Atlases with 30 tons in 8 SRM-6s, when the machine simply isn't big enough (Just over 13 meters, about 14 meters or truly massive at 15 meters -- depending on the source) to hold both an SRM6 and a proper 20 tube LRM20 launcher. They exist because "we can" with construction rules. Customization rules (customizing a mech in a campaign) wouldn't really allow such silliness without a lot of punishment. Ever seen the tag lines about mech mortar, srm, lrm, mrm sizes and interchangeability? It's practically a pseudo Soft Point system. You could put anything there but it's easier to stick within a given soft-point size.

Catalyst likely took the MWDA Mk. IV and gave it a TRO read out... as there is a clix base unit for it...



With AFFS logos on the legs... SMH

Screw you WizKidz.... just screw you....

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 06 July 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Catalyst likely took the MWDA Mk. IV and gave it a TRO read out... as there is a clix base unit for it...



With AFFS logos on the legs... SMH

Screw you WizKidz.... just screw you....

Half-baked Catalyst story telling slapped on to Wizkidz insanity. I would have just jotted it as "a complete failure" and left it at that.

Side note: wizkidz logic....
http://assets-cloud....nal/3182850.jpg
The reason battle mechs made the jump from up to 14 meters (just barely bigger than the pre-rescale Hunchback was, is the height of an Atlas)... to "27 meters" is wizkidz decided mechs should be huge because it's cool and should be like battleships and totally have toilets and sleeping quarters. ikid you not there is a whole thing on how a mech toilet functions!! And how some mechs have luxury brand name mattresses whike others might have a string cot/hammock!

Edited by Koniving, 06 July 2016 - 11:33 AM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 06 July 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

Half-baked Catalyst story telling slapped on to Wizkidz insanity. I would have just jotted it as "a complete failure" and left it at that.

Side note: wizkidz logic....
http://assets-cloud....nal/3182850.jpg
The reason battle mechs made the jump from up to 14 meters (just barely bigger than the pre-rescale Hunchback was, is the height of an Atlas)... to "27 meters" is wizkidz decided mechs should be huge because it's cool and should be like battleships and totally have toilets and sleeping quarters. ikid you not there is a whole thing on how a mech toilet functions!! And how some mechs have luxury brand name mattresses whike others might have a string cot/hammock!

That image you added sure made me scratch my head... I can understand an extended mag in an auto-pistol, but that one looks like it is using rifle cartridges... So either that guy has a robotic arm, is an elemental or a WH40k Space Marine, I don't know how he is handling the recoil.... Then comes the ejection port being behind the second mag...


As to what you are saying about WizKidz and what they did to the mechs, all I have to say is:



I can understand a hammock/cot in a storage compartment, especially for an extended operation, but a full on mattress? As for a toilet... hope your brought a bucket and an extra manual with you....

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Wow, this thread derailed quick.
Might as well be the official PGI xl explanation guide.