80 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

The point being, by your own words... different playstyles, builds and tactics and scenarios, different standards. I'll frontload my GaussJager or KDK3 a lot more than I will mt HBK or CN9, or even my Brawler KDK4.

Its true there are different standards, but for the most part it boils down to whether you are expecting a furball/brawl or not (things that play the edge of a brawl don't count) and what the team size is (4v4s allow lights to be much more threatening to assault butts).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 July 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RampancyTW, on 12 July 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

With 10-12 back armor on an assault, you might be able to spread most of it with your twisting.

Assaults do not have the twist range for you to spread to the rear like other mechs. The Gauss/PPC Kodiak is the only thing that can justify more rear armor than normal for a long range assault because those Gauss are as touchy as hit reg (rear hits from the front really ruin your day). As someone else mentioned, ammo bins are the least of your problems if you are building the mech right.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 July 2016 - 07:54 AM.

[Rampancy]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Assaults do not have the twist range for you to spread to the rear like other mechs. The Gauss/PPC Kodiak is the only thing that can justify more rear armor than normal for a long range assault because those Gauss are as touchy as hit reg (rear hits from the front really ruin your day). As someone else mentioned, ammo bins are the least of your problems if you are building the mech right.

Talking more about a drive-by alpha into your exposed back during a brawl, but that is and isn't true. If you're protecting a front torso section, you might have to twist to expose the back to fully protect it. If you have to pull back, you might have to expose your back to get away cleanly. I play pretty aggressively and I get my back exposed in at least one section during most quickplay matches. It's hard to avoid unless you're one of the ones in the back at the edge of the scrum.

If you're dropping with your unit, by all means distribute your armor in a fashion that assumes you won't take back shots. It's unwise for quickplay brawling, though.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I run 1-2 on on pretty much everything. I like controlling space more than getting into a brawl, so stacking armor forward seems to make the most sense. I rarely find that a light has slipped in behind me, and it is even rarer that the light is able to do significant damage before I can respond.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Assaults do not have the twist range for you to spread to the rear like other mechs. The Gauss/PPC Kodiak is the only thing that can justify more rear armor than normal for a long range assault because those Gauss are as touchy as hit reg (rear hits from the front really ruin your day). As someone else mentioned, ammo bins are the least of your problems if you are building the mech right.

so I guess my confusion is... it's OK for you to decide when to stack more armor...but not me?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RampancyTW, on 12 July 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Talking more about a drive-by alpha into your exposed back during a brawl, but that is and isn't true.

Again, that is brawling, where taking more back armor is not really unique to assaults or quick play.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

so I guess my confusion is... it's OK for you to decide when to stack more armor...but not me?

No, you are right that it is situational, but those situations where it is necessary is limited to brawlers (not brawl-skirmishers) and super special cases like the Gauss/PPC Kodiak which has a tendency to take rear shots from the front due to magical hit reg.

I guess you could say there might be more special cases if you aren't running optimal designs for a given role, but that's probably part of the reason the design is subpar.

[Podex]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Again, that is brawling, where taking more back armor is not really unique to assaults or quick play.

Are you arguing just to argue? This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that frontloading is necessitated by long range alphas, and where your response was along the lines that I have no clue what I'm talking about because comp players like mid-long range maps.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Podex, on 12 July 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Are you arguing just to argue? This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that frontloading is necessitated by long range alphas, and where your response was along the lines that I have no clue what I'm talking about because comp players like mid-long range maps.

If you had said any damage outside of brawling, then I would've agreed with you, I took issue with your the fact you tried to make it out like there is only brawling and long range when there is more range brackets than that and the fact that you think all long range is alphas, which is not really the case. Dakka, PPFLD, and lasers all play at long range and they don't all fit the "alpha" mentality.

Also, comp players liked the old Frozen City, which was probably the main brawling map even compared to Bog.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 July 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[Podex]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

If you had said any damage outside of brawling, then I would've agreed with you, I took issue with your the fact you tried to make it out like there is only brawling and long range when there is more range brackets than that and the fact that you think all long range is alphas, which is not really the case. Dakka, PPFLD, and lasers all play at long range and they don't all fit the "alpha" mentality.

Semantics, brotha.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Podex, on 12 July 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Semantics

They matter.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

They matter.

This s true, though with as many variables as one encounters in MWO, they are rarely as set in stone as people want to portray them.

Situational Semantics, mayhap?

[Podex]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

They matter.

I'm not going to type out a dissertation on the distance vs. damage of every weapon and how they correlate in the required ratio of front armor/rear armor. I will, however, say that short range maps would bring the need for more rear armor. Oh wait, I DID say that already. You disagreed.

My bad. Preach to me your knowledge, oh wise one.

[Bishop Steiner]

Podex, on 12 July 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

I'm not going to type out a dissertation on the distance vs. damage of every weapon and how they correlate in the required ratio of front armor/rear armor. I will, however, say that short range maps would bring the need for more rear armor. Oh wait, I DID say that already. You disagreed.

My bad. Preach to me your knowledge, oh wise one.

Hey, off topic, but saw you and Moother weren't in Bear Tags. find a new unit?

[Podex]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

Hey, off topic, but saw you and Moother weren't in Bear Tags. find a new unit?

You may have me confused with someone else. I've always rocked the purple chicken. I ran with the Seraphim for a while in the past. Maybe you saw me running with them or FWLM.

Currently unitless

Edited by Podex, 12 July 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Podex, on 12 July 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

You disagreed.

I disagreed with the fact that forest was a close range map and the idea that all maps need to be claustrophobic, not that close range needed more rear armor, there is a difference. I will admit I wasn't very clear about that in my response to you.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

This s true, though with as many variables as one encounters in MWO, they are rarely as set in stone as people want to portray them.

There are always exceptions to the rule, best to play it as a guideline, problem is people often use the exception as proof that the exception should be the rule.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 July 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Podex, on 12 July 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

You may have me confused with someone else. I've always rocked the purple chicken. I ran with the Seraphim for a while in the past. Maybe you saw me running with them or FWLM.

Currently unitless

Must have. Name really reminds me of an old HARDCorps unit mate from way back in the day. And now you just reminded me how far Marik has fallen as a community from just a couple years ago, when Marik Mondays were the place to drop.

Really, top to bottom, this community isn't half what it was a couple years ago. Still some pretty good individual players, though a lot are gone, but realyl almost none of the (non comp) units are even a ghost of their past selves...and tbh... even a lot of the Comp Ones seem... a different flavor, over all.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 July 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

There are always exceptions to the rule, best to play it as a guideline, problem is people often use the exception as proof that the exception should be the rule.

And this I can fully agree with. I would never say "my way is the "right" way", at least for the masses. Metas are metas for a reason. Yet there are some players who run counter meta...not to be hipsters, but because sometimes they just don't click with the meta. That said, the majority of people will (unless a key element is skill, in which case the masses never will) benefit from playing the meta. (The skill portion being why in mid tiers and lower laservomit is still a stronger part of the meta than in upper tiers.... because laservomit is EZ)

It's just that some of us get tired of getting our junk jumped for daring to say "hey, it's not necessarily the ONLY way".

Believe it or not, when I say "I find I do better with some rear armor".... I'm not indicting you or other players who feel they play better with naked bums. Too many people on these forms take things as waaaay too black and white.

[Podex]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 July 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Must have. Name really reminds me of an old HARDCorps unit mate from way back in the day. And now you just reminded me how far Marik has fallen as a community from just a couple years ago, when Marik Mondays were the place to drop.

Really, top to bottom, this community isn't half what it was a couple years ago. Still some pretty good individual players, though a lot are gone, but realyl almost none of the (non comp) units are even a ghost of their past selves...and tbh... even a lot of the Comp Ones seem... a different flavor, over all.

I had to take about a year off due to a neck injury (yay modern medicine!) and came back to a totally different game. Brawling is fun, but nowhere what it used to be. Gone are the days of standing toe to toe with someone and beating each other to a pulp while looking for an opening to exploit. It just seems that the basic skills aren't there anymore, nor is the need to gain them. Hell, I can't remember the last time I was legged by a light.

You're right, that weird I "hate you but you're still my friend" bond (aka Marik/Davion) is missing. My guess is it died with the Steam release.

[Kubernetes]

Why can't we just acknowledge that different pilots prefer to run different levels of rear armor? Only noobs are building mechs wondering what armor levels are good in theory. Vets with thousands of drops are likely building from experience.