75 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

It'd be fun for my Clan stable of robits but enough of that "exception to the rules" and the line between standard and Omni breaks down.

Summoners aren't ever going to be up for broader build options like Timbys or Ebin Jags. It'd be nice to see them get more omnipod options like the Kit Fox did.

[Steve Pryde]

Easy way for buffing underperforming mechs: unlock endo+ferro+locked equipment (not engines)

Hard way: quirks

And yeah, some mechs have feero+endo and don't do well but PGI can give them quirks anyway.

[Battlemaster56]

If you guys want a Summoner with endo you have to wait for the Summoner II mates or beg PGI to make Summoner II with every thing you love as it each configuration is the same as the old the original Summoner. I see no point to unlock endo on this mech since you only have to build it simple and it will work out.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I'm not going to quote a directly reply to everything, but here is my overall response.

Lore is a terrible argument against this, as so many things have been altered from lore.

Lots of equipment (if not most) is already modified on a case by case basis via quirks.

PGI uses locked equipment on Omnimechs as a way to balance, but it's a completely artificial PGI invention. By rights, Battlemechs should be similarly locked. Thus, PGI could choose to make exceptions, just as all Battlemechs are exceptions already.

This entire game is designed around exceptions to rules. So much so, in fact, that they are not really "rules" at all, merely guidelines.

There is already precedent (Adder) and what's more, this exception would hardly be game breaking.

The Summoner II is an obvious "fix" to the original Summoner. Why we need wait for a completely redundant 'Mech is beyond me.

Quirks are not like to fix the problem or provide the flexibility the 'Mech needs to be viable.

But ES (coupled with Omnipods that have just a single energy handprint in each ST) would make it so much better. Even then, it wouldn't be tier 1.

So again, just give it ES already!

[InspectorG]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 14 July 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

That's not true. There's no slippery slope unless PGI can't control themselves. One change does not necessitate another in all cases and certainly not here!

Thats not the reason.

Endo requires 7 slots that are fixed on all Summoner pods and chassis.

PGI would have to re-program the ability of not only to add/remove endo and the Ferro slots no one would take but also...

REBALANCE the quirks in the process for 1 mech most dont care about. Summoner has pretty strong quirks(agility, ERPPC, UAC jam, missile Spread, structure)

Paul isnt gonna math all that to give the Summoner 3.5-ish tons.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

It can't be done because if Russ allowed the Summoner to be decent it would cause the Universe to Implode upon itself and end life as we know it.


And Trump's hair will rise from the abyss like Cthulu's tentacles.


I'd actually like to just be able to run it Super Stock, viably. The way a Summoner is meant to be. And I do run mine bone stock... which means I run out of ammo waaay too soon.

But even with stock armor and before structure buffs, SMN was always good at spreading damage. Just not so great at inflicting it.

Thats because in BT, 15 damage from 1 ERPPC opened mechs up. In MWO its a scratch.

LBX in BT ruined mechs with opened components. In MWO, LBX is a BBgun. Literally.

In BT, LRMs were crit fishers as well. In MWO, they suck.

In BT, Summoners ran cool weaponry that could be used all day. In MWO, that cool advantage means nothing with MWO's heatscale in relation to other mechs. Also, no heat penalties.

ON TOP LL THAT, BT mechs rarely ran full armor. In MWO, mechs run full armor at TWICE max BT value to extend TTK.

THAT IS WHY STOCK SUMMONER SUX, and also why 1-2 tons of ammo for a main gun is simply not enough.

Want a viable stock Summoner? Get Paul to use BT crit systems and BT heat caps. Endo and removable JJ will make a Summoner into a Timby with worse convergence and fewer hardpoints.

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Thats because in BT, 15 damage from 1 ERPPC opened mechs up. In MWO its a scratch.

LBX in BT ruined mechs with opened components. In MWO, LBX is a BBgun. Literally.

In BT, LRMs were crit fishers as well. In MWO, they suck.

In BT, Summoners ran cool weaponry that could be used all day. In MWO, that cool advantage means nothing with MWO's heatscale in relation to other mechs. Also, no heat penalties.

ON TOP LL THAT, BT mechs rarely ran full armor. In MWO, mechs run full armor at TWICE max BT value to extend TTK.

THAT IS WHY STOCK SUMMONER SUX, and also why 1-2 tons of ammo for a main gun is simply not enough.

Want a viable stock Summoner? Get Paul to use BT crit systems and BT heat caps. Endo and removable JJ will make a Summoner into a Timby with worse convergence and fewer hardpoints.

You sure seem to have a lot invested in trying to keep the Summoner from ever being good for anything but boring metavomit. Why is that?

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

Thats not the reason.

Endo requires 7 slots that are fixed on all Summoner pods and chassis.

PGI would have to re-program the ability of not only to add/remove endo and the Ferro slots no one would take but also...

REBALANCE the quirks in the process for 1 mech most dont care about. Summoner has pretty strong quirks(agility, ERPPC, UAC jam, missile Spread, structure)

Paul isnt gonna math all that to give the Summoner 3.5-ish tons.

Probably you're right about the real reason we won't ever get ES on Summoner.

Still, I daresay that even with all the Quirks left alone and given ES, it still wouldn't reach the same level as TBR. And since that's the gold standard (as of now), I don't see a problem.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:52 PM, said:

You sure seem to have a lot invested in trying to keep the Summoner from ever being good for anything but boring metavomit. Why is that?

A. metavomit is dying. Power Draw is coming(praise be????). Summoner is 1 heat quirk away from being a strong poptart.
1 Quirk from being a stronger lazor harasser.
Dakka would require ammo quirks and better velocity. Anything more than 2 UAC5 wont happen, otherwise the free tonnage will turn the Summoner into a not-as-good timby.

B. I have realistic expectations on what PGI will do to 'fix' the Summoner. You apparently want them to remake MWO to fit the stock Summoner. Wont happen.

C. tonnage restricted mechs rely on lazors(hence lights). Good luck convincing PGI to reduce the weight of ACs to the Summoner can use 3UAC5s like the other big boys.


Really, there is no point in asking PGI to do something they wont or likely even CANT.

Quirks and maybe ST pods are the best options. Hell, even ask for arm pods with 3E or 3M or 3B each.

A 7MG+UAC20 Summoner might be decent. But say bye to the agility quirks after that Hero Summoner sells for Cbills.

[Navid A1]

Summoner needs to swap Ferro armor with Endo...
That, or ammo quirks.

Or...

we can just go full-meta with this:
SMN-PRIME
to show our protest to PGI.

[Mystere]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 July 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

Because the Clans didn't build the Summoner with Endo Steel, only Ferro Armor. :/

Well, if PGI is going to stick to lore, then they better do much better and go much further that the half-assed effort they have shown so far.

[Mystere]

Telemachus Rheade, on 14 July 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

Didn't read the whole thread. Simple answer: I know this is a stretch, and PGI does do some things that throw lore right out the door, but ONE THING that PGI does right is maintaining the Endo/Ferro/Standard rules for omnimechs. Not broken, don't fix.

Some? Surely you jest!

[Elizander]

Can of worms syndrome.

[Karl Streiger]

just saying

[Lyoto Machida]

Pjwned, on 14 July 2016 - 05:27 AM, said:

Because it's stupid to pick & choose mechs to bend the rules for, and with the Summoner obviously being an Omnimech it's bound by Omnimech construction rules. If we're going to bend the rules, then it needs to be consistent or else it's crap.

How about instead we make Ferro Fibrous armor not be objectively inferior to Endo Steel structure. Something like allowing more max armor with Ferro Fibrous would be far more interesting (as well as make reasonable sense) and actually promote players choosing FF over ES (or choosing FF locked omnimechs over ES locked omnimechs) instead of this "no ES no pick" mentality that is honestly pretty justified because FF is so bad.

If literally nothing else was an option and upgrades were pretty much left as is and the Summoner were to get at least a small buff, then maybe the Summoner (and the Mad Dog too I guess) could have Endo Steel swapped out with Ferro Fibrous, but that's a really lame way of handling it.

This! I was wondering why it took this many responses to get this answer in this thread.

Why not just let Ferro give X amount of extra armor on top of the max based on the the tonnage of the mech instead of the weight savings? Sure, it's not BT lore but at least there'd be a reason to take FF instead of Endo, depending on your playstyle, etc. Right now, there's no reason to not take Endo first always, unless I missed some niche case.

[Karl Streiger]

Lyoto Machida, on 14 July 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

This! I was wondering why it took this many responses to get this answer in this thread.

Why not just let Ferro give X amount of extra armor on top of the max based on the the tonnage of the mech instead of the weight savings? Sure, it's not BT lore but at least there'd be a reason to take FF instead of Endo, depending on your playstyle, etc. Right now, there's no reason to not take Endo first always, unless I missed some niche case.

The only other reason is not in game and when it was it was made poorly, same for IS CASE

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 July 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Lyoto Machida, on 14 July 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

This! I was wondering why it took this many responses to get this answer in this thread.

Why not just let Ferro give X amount of extra armor on top of the max based on the the tonnage of the mech instead of the weight savings? Sure, it's not BT lore but at least there'd be a reason to take FF instead of Endo, depending on your playstyle, etc. Right now, there's no reason to not take Endo first always, unless I missed some niche case.

Good idea, but doing this would affect all 'Mechs and leave Summoner in the same situation it's in now, relative to other 'Mechs.

[Malachy Karrde]

PGI stays with lore when it suits their agenda (not sure what that is anymore) and throws it out the window when they want to do something stupid (Most everything they do).

[Bishop Steiner]

Malachy Karrde, on 15 July 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

PGI stays with lore when it suits their agenda (not sure what that is anymore) and throws it out the window when they want to do something stupid (Most everything they do).

that's a pretty good summation.

I think it's "stick with lore when it saves us having to do work, or furthers our Evil-Sports Agenda."

[Anakha]

Need to keep pushing for Endo until PGI and Russ pull their head out of the sand regarding the underpowered Clan mechs that need to be competitive.