172 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

Universally being... the same double dozen people who have complained universally about everything for 4 years?

Good to know.

But hey, when facts don't work, why not go full ad hominem, eh? That's ForumWarrior 101, after all.

So instead of arguing pointlessly with you I'll just leave it at: LOL. Dem Robots got scaled by volume, and it ain't gonna change. Deal with it.

It's the same 6 people defending the rescale if you hadn't noticed

"bro, the volume adds up"

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

Universally being... the same double dozen people who have complained universally about everything for 4 years?

Good to know.

But hey, when facts don't work, why not go full ad hominem, eh? That's ForumWarrior 101, after all.

So instead of arguing pointlessly with you I'll just leave it at: LOL. Dem Robots got scaled by volume, and it ain't gonna change. Deal with it.

If facts are ad hominem, then, "OK".

I mean, it's fine that we agree that PGI doesn't give a damn about balance or scaling or even common sense. It's not going to be the last time.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 14 July 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

It looks like you're taking your own advice right now.

Fight fire with fire.

You've provided **** all for actual arguments, stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted NAWNAWNAW NOT LISTENIING since the rescale was announced. Why waste time giving a crap what you think?

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

It's the same 6 people defending the rescale if you hadn't noticed

"bro, the volume adds up"

at least those 6 people actually use facts. Something you used to rely on a little more.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2016 - 09:53 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

at least those 6 people actually use facts. Something you used to rely on a little more. Certainly more than your little 3way circlejerk has been providing.

What facts, other than ignoring how the game works?
That's actively avoiding facts

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

What facts, other than ignoring how the game works?
That's actively avoiding facts

that robots are 3D, twist, turn, spread damage and don't just face tank it like a 2D paper cutout?

those details on how the game works?

Huh. Go figure.

Well, I grant, bads do stand there and stare at you. Way to look out for the Underhive there, Mickey Gee!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Since at any given time up to this, less than 3 Light Chassis at a time were considered relevant among the pros anyhow, not seeing the difference? Aside from more Locusts, at least til the patch.

The ultimate goal of balance in this game should be to make as many chassis as relevant as possible, the difference is the rescale has caused that effort to take a step back, or in my example, 5 steps back.

You can slap however many goddamn quirks you want on them, but quirks are band-aids, band-aids that don't address the core problems of this game.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Fight fire with fire.

You've provided **** all for actual arguments, stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted NAWNAWNAW NOT LISTENIING since the rescale was announced. Why waste time giving a crap what you think?

You're not setting a very good example for "actual arguments" in this thread.

For the record, several folks from the pro-rescale and pro-volume crowd also do that exact "NAWNAWNAW NOT LISTENIING" thing anytime somebody tries to criticize anything pertaining to the rescale. Many of the posts in defense of it assert that volume is the only way to go and that everything else is always wrong end of story.

We might as well be arguing about which religion is the right one, it would be about as productive...

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Fight fire with fire.

You've provided **** all for actual arguments, stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted NAWNAWNAW NOT LISTENIING since the rescale was announced. Why waste time giving a crap what you think?


at least those 6 people actually use facts. Something you used to rely on a little more.

lol what? I'm using facts.

Before the rescale, my fear is that PGI would get it wrong, and wrong they did.

Mind you, not all mechs that got scaled down was a bad thing... in fact, that was actually the thing that most people would've wanted across the board... whether it be the Awesome, Shadowhawk, Grasshopper, Griffin.. and some of them did... like the Nova and Quickdraw.

I play the game, and I do play to get a feel for the mech... not just shout out random things like a lot of the rabble here (like LRMs are OP, etc.).

I have a pretty good idea, and while my opinions and ideas are not perfect whatsoever - it's fairly easy to figure out based on what we have now, and comparing many of the other actual PGI changes and designs... it really isn't that hard to come to a conclusion.

I'm unsure where you think I get my information, as I'm not subscribing to NGNG or any other 3rd party - I take feedback from multiple sources and we all try to get to a conclusion - even if we have differences of opinion.

So, I dunno what to tell you, but I'm not singing the anti-PGI line - rather, I'm using obvious examples and explanations and you are the one refusing the listen. That's fine - noone @ PGI is going to care anyways.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 July 2016 - 09:57 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

I think this is a thread that i can cram Quadrupeds into!

You want short medium mechs? VOTE FOR SCORPION!
Box-like torso lends well to the volumetric scaling and with its 4 legs and external missile launcher, it'd be even shorter than the Novas!
It'd be absolutely tiny and with the ability cram a XL400 into a 55 tonner!

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 14 July 2016 - 10:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 14 July 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

The ultimate goal of balance in this game should be to make as many chassis as relevant as possible, the difference is the rescale has caused that effort to take a step back, or in my example, 5 steps back.

You can slap however many goddamn quirks you want on them, but quirks are band-aids, band-aids that don't address the core problems of this game.

since the very players complaining about scale are also the ones adamantly against doing things to make the game actually work (hint... can't rely on Battletech damage systems and such when you make it 10x easier to hit stuff than it was in battletech), etc, well, everything is just bandaids.

So either the entire game gets overhauled from ground up to not rely on battltech mechanics, to actualyl work with click a pixel, perfect convergence focus fire aiming, it gets the combat mechanics fixed to work with the Btech Damage mechanics, or it stays a giant box of bandaids.

But that's realyl a whole different (while related) issue.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

since the very players complaining about scale are also the ones adamantly against doing things to make the game actually work (hint... can't rely on Battletech damage systems and such when you make it 10x easier to hit stuff than it was in battletech), etc, well, everything is just bandaids.

So either the entire game gets overhauled from ground up to not rely on battltech mechanics, to actualyl work with click a pixel, perfect convergence focus fire aiming, it gets the combat mechanics fixed to work with the Btech Damage mechanics, or it stays a giant box of bandaids.

But that's realyl a whole different (while related) issue.

There it is, there it is I ******* knew it would come out sooner than later. You can keep Battletech, this game isn't Battletech. Its BASED on Battletech but it cannot realistically emulate its damage mechanics or pratically anything else because that **** is all chance based on dice rolls and RNGesus. If that's what you want this game to be, then I'll leave in a bloody heart beat.

[Rampancy]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 14 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

There are 14 different light chassis in this game, at this time. Arguably 10 of them are irrelevant. 5 were made so because of the rescale.

Yeah, no

Anything not named Firestarter or Arctic Cheetah was irrelevant for months, then the Wolfhound joined the fray (kinda) as a JJ-less Firestarter equivalent, then the Oxide/Huginn made brief appearances due to some, ahem, generous quirks. All the patch did was (yet again) shuffle around relevance. Am I happy that my JR7-F is now riding more of a strugglebus? Of course not. But I'd rather it ultimately get balanced around its appropriate size, and not around inconsistent hitreg on a tiny frame.

Sigilum Sanctum, on 14 July 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

The ultimate goal of balance in this game should be to make as many chassis as relevant as possible, the difference is the rescale has caused that effort to take a step back, or in my example, 5 steps back.

You can slap however many goddamn quirks you want on them, but quirks are band-aids, band-aids that don't address the core problems of this game.

There's more chassis parity right now than there ever was within weight classes. Some mechs got a little bit worse. Many overperforming mechs got brought into line. Many underperforming mechs got brought into line, too.

Lights got hit a little hard, but other than that this has been an objective net positive. People just don't like their pet mechs getting affected.

[Thorn Hallis]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 14 July 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

If that's what you want this game to be, then I'll leave in a bloody heart beat.

Well, scaling wouldn't be a problem anymore...

[Yellonet]

FFS people, get over the size thing, it's correct the way it is.
Even if the size difference between a 55 ton medium and 70 ton heavy isn't very large, it's still noticeable, but in the end that matters most when both are stationary which they shouldn't be very often if you shoot at them. The medium with better speed and agility should be the more difficult target any day of the week.

If you're in a medium and don't have speed and agility edge on a heavy, you're doing it wrong.

[PhoenixFire55]

ComradeHavoc, on 14 July 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

Why are medium IS mechs so freaking tall?

Because Reasons^TM that are beyond our understanding. We are on an Island^TM and our Opinons do not Matter^TM.
Only thing that is expected of you is that you Want to Buy a Mechpack^TM.

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

and ignoring how 3D volume scaling actually works... double mass ain't anywhere near double size.

Square Cube Law, kids? 15 tons? Between 55 and 70 tons? Not going to see a huge jump in overall proportions. But they know this. But it argues against the Subjective 2D cardboard cutout shooter theory of subjective balancing.

*shrugs*



Can't say I care much either way. People will just find something else to QQ and whinge about.

stop math, some people can't even calculate heatefficiencies correctly, now you wanna use cubic calculations WOAHHH;

Also, people seem to forgot we don't have classes named,

small, medium, big, large, they are still called light, medium, heavy, assault.

FupDup, on 14 July 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

You're not setting a very good example for "actual arguments" in this thread.

For the record, several folks from the pro-rescale and pro-volume crowd also do that exact "NAWNAWNAW NOT LISTENIING" thing anytime somebody tries to criticize anything pertaining to the rescale. Many of the posts in defense of it assert that volume is the only way to go and that everything else is always wrong end of story.

We might as well be arguing about which religion is the right one, it would be about as productive...

And because there was a partial wrong arguing crowd on the pro side doing derp, Doing the same derp on the contra side is suddnely right? what standards are that? counterderp the derp?

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 July 2016 - 01:47 AM.

[Yellonet]

PhoenixFire55, on 15 July 2016 - 01:24 AM, said:

Because Reasons^TM that are beyond our understanding. We are on an Island^TM and our Opinons do not Matter^TM.
Only thing that is expected of you is that you Want to Buy a Mechpack^TM.

"our understanding" as if you speak for everyone. You surely don't speak for me. So please edit your post to "My understanding". Volume shouldn't be a very difficult concept to understand for people playing this game... what's the average age, 40?

Riddle me this, how can two persons, one weighing 55 kg and one weighing 70 kg be equally tall?
Yes, surely that must be a trick question, something like that could never be, obviously a person with greater weight must also be taller... haha... what a strange thing to say... equally tall... hahah....

[ComradeHavoc]

Quit arguing with each other you stupid egotistical nerds and answer my questions.

[Juodas Varnas]

ComradeHavoc, on 15 July 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

Quit arguing with each other you stupid egotistical nerds and answer my questions.

ALRIGHT, I WILL

IS MEDIUM MECHS ARE TALLER BECAUSE MOST OF THEM HAVE HUMANOID BODY SHAPES.
THE CRAB, WHICH IS A NON-HUMANOID IS MEDIUM MECH IS PRETTY SHORT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT HUMANOID!

IF YOU WANT REALLY SHORT IS MEDIUMS, GET MORE HYPE FOR THE SCORPION!

CAPITAL LETTERS!!!

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 15 July 2016 - 02:06 AM.

[Yellonet]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

And you'll note they have roughly the same frontal profile, which ***** up game balance

This is realistic and how it should be unless you think completely arbitrary measures for balance are better than realism.
And no, this does not **** up game balance at all. The only time that's true is when two mechs stand still facing each other and exchange fire. If you're in the lighter mech doing that you only get to blame yourself.