71 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Russ broadcasted a tweet this weekend that demonstrated how he was pleased to see the inner sphere being ran by medium Mechs. He said the workhorse of the inner sphere was in charge.

He failed to mention that an external incentive was required to create this environment. If there were no weight restrictions or external incentives then the heavy Mech class would most likely eclipse the medium class in general useage.

So why is the heavy class to Workhorse of Mechwarrior online? Why are the mediums under-represented compared to their status in the storyline lore?

The simple answer is reward/risk ratios. There is absolutely no difference in Risk between taking a medium and a heavy Mech into combat. If the denominator remains the same then the only value that really impacts your outcome is the amount of reward you get. Heavy Mechs bring more Firepower/armor (and can take big engines, too) and they garner larger Rewards.

That is why the medium mech class is not the Workhorse of Mechwarrior online.

Am I asking for repair and rearm in order to bring heavy mechs into check? No because that only harms the free players who did not use premium time or Heroes. I guess what I am asking for is to increase the numerator of the Reward/risk ratio for those who use medium mechs and thereby continue this representation that we see this weekend.

We can syntheticly represent repair and rearm's effect on the game economy by artificially increasing the rewards of Medium and light classes. Increasing the rewards for cheap/smaller Mechs will give people people a reason to use them over larger and more powerful Mechs that would typically require more resources to operate.

I Envision a reward multiplier system that is inversely proportional to Mech Weight that causes increased rewards for users of equipment that is normally cheaper to operate because in the end that's how the real world works. If a mission payout is capped and you experience fewer losses in material then you come out ahead with more profit. You can replicate this environment by keeping costs the same but increasing the rewards for those who would normally have otherwise accrued fewer costs.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[Appogee]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Happy Mechs bring more Firepower/armor (and can take big engines, too) and they garner larger Rewards.

This is true. It's the reason I treat my Mechs to a spa bath and pampering session after every battle.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Appogee, on 16 July 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

This is true. It's the reason I treat my Mechs to a spa bath and pampering session after every battle.

autocorrect for the win! I feel happier already.

[Hit the Deck]

QP would be the wrong place to look for that.

It can at least happen in FP, but you need to lower the dropdeck weight limit first.

[jss78]

IMO the heavy mean tonnage in MWO comes down to two things: economy, and gameplay objectives.

Economy: we're all, in effect, infinitely rich. Further, we have unlimited access to any 'mech we want. This is a huge departure from tabletop campaigns, let alone novels describing poor ragtag merc units. In tabletop you have stuff like Panthers and Vindicators, played as "poor man's heavies". They are very cost-effective at what they do and "good mechs" as such -- but they have no reason to exist when you have unlimited access to "real" heavies. Also consider the ubiquitous Wasps and Stingers -- even in tabletop you would never run these if you have unlimited access to Phoenix Hawks which is a straight upgrade for the same task. But here we have all the Phoenix Hawks we want, or better, Blackjacks with 250+ rated engines.

Gameplay objectives: there's very little other then killing 'mechs. Would you even in tabletop ever take a Stinger for mech-vs-mech action if you can bring a company of 70+ tonners? This is compounded by the very small maps in this game.

[Appogee]

Back on topic... I agree, with one exception...

Lights are OP relative to the other weight classes. So they shouldn't get a reward multiplier higher than Mediums.

I think Mediums are actually the 'hardest' class in the sense that they have lower armor, somewhat lower speed, bigger hitboxes and fewer hardpoints relative to other classes.

Lights have small hitboxes and speed on their side. Assaults have lots of armor and hardpoints, but of course, they are big targets and slow moving. Heavies have the 'sweet spot' in tradeoffs across all the factors.

[Felicitatem Parco]

jss78, on 16 July 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

IMO the heavy mean tonnage in MWO comes down to two things: economy, and gameplay objectives.

Economy: we're all, in effect, infinitely rich. Further, we have unlimited access to any 'mech we want. This is a huge departure from tabletop campaigns, let alone novels describing poor ragtag merc units. In tabletop you have stuff like Panthers and Vindicators, played as "poor man's heavies". They are very cost-effective at what they do and "good mechs" as such -- but they have no reason to exist when you have unlimited access to "real" heavies. Also consider the ubiquitous Wasps and Stingers -- even in tabletop you would never run these if you have unlimited access to Phoenix Hawks which is a straight upgrade for the same task. But here we have all the Phoenix Hawks we want, or better, Blackjacks with 250+ rated engines.

Gameplay objectives: there's very little other then killing 'mechs. Would you even in tabletop ever take a Stinger for mech-vs-mech action if you can bring a company of 70+ tonners? This is compounded by the very small maps in this game.

Do you think more people will be on the field using Mediums if they paid more kill-for-kill than Heavies? Heavy Mechs would still be more powerful on the field but those of us who are trying to earn money to buy more stuff will be using what we find to be more profitable. If I can inflict 500 damage with two kills and five assists in a medium mech and get paid more than that same exact performance in a Heavy Mech then i'm going to try driving more mediums.

The straight-up upgrades are no longer a 100% upgrade if you consider the fact that you have to try harder and do better in order to achieve the same Rewards.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I could get behind a graduated scale the rewarded the light class more and then the Medium class and lumped the Assaults and Heavies as a group. The lighter the chassis group the better the payout ratio for damage or kills.

But an even better solution would be to provide more roles for each class and reward them handsomely for fulfilling those roles.

Until something besides damage and kills gets good rewards the smaller Mechs will always be less desirable to use for most people. After all, the only thing that is really a worthwhile long term goal in this game at present is farming C-bills.

[dervishx5]

Heavies are the perfect mix of maneuverability and firepower. You get essentially the same firepower of an assault without having to move like one.

[Hit the Deck]

dervishx5, on 16 July 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Heavies are the perfect mix of maneuverability and firepower. You get essentially the same firepower of an assault without having to move like one.

You forgot to mention the exception to ballistic boating Assaults.

[dervishx5]

Hit the Deck, on 16 July 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

You forgot to mention the exception to ballistic boating Assaults.

I didn't have to mention it because whenever you fail to mention something on these forums there's about 50 guys waiting to correct you.

Edited by dervishx5, 16 July 2016 - 10:26 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

dervishx5, on 16 July 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Heavies are the perfect mix of maneuverability and firepower. You get essentially the same firepower of an assault without having to move like one.

Yes that is why they are used when you do not have to factor cost into the equation.

[EgoSlayer]

This has been discussed for years, either doing dynamic rewards based on the status of the queues, or just doing fixed pay increases by classes. PGI doesn't seem interested in doing it, and really it seems like C-Bill only rewards probably are not enough to change the queues much.

Looking at the event rewards.usually half or more of the items are things that are MC only items, things that are unavailable for purchase like GXP rewards, or something really expensive for C-Bills like a Mech+ a mech bay. It seems that either the concept of getting something for free, and/or looking for recognition on the leader boards drives people more than just a plain C-Bill boost. It seems to me boosting only the C-Bill rewards would have only a minimal effect.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 16 July 2016 - 10:34 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

In lore, if you get your heavy or Assault mech rekd it would most likely bankrupt you and your family. If my timberwolf was lost in MWO upon destruction, I could replace it hundreds of times with the cbills I have banked.

Heavies usually dominate the Queue as they can bring large amounts of firepower, with lots of room to customize, as well as not giving up too much speed and having good armor. Especially with this mentality in MWO where the more the gunz the better, heaves bring the pain.

Gotta say though, this event is pretty fun. I like chassis leader-board events and I usually pilot mediums anyway. I like the idea of the OP.

[FupDup]

It would be nice if in general, the weight classes were actually balanced against each other instead of relying on artificial bandaids like tonnage limits or class limits.

I know, it's heresy. I know, it's wishful thinking at best. This is why sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to just start all over from scratch with an entirely new IP built from the ground up.

[Alistair Winter]

Medium mechs are the most popular mechs in the game. Light mechs are in a great place right now.

[Felicitatem Parco]

FupDup, on 16 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

It would be nice if in general, the weight classes were actually balanced against each other instead of relying on artificial bandaids like tonnage limits or class limits.

I know, it's heresy. I know, it's wishful thinking at best. This is why sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to just start all over from scratch with an entirely new IP built from the ground up.

Well you do have to admit that an M1 Abrams battle tank will almost always out fight a CV90. you can't balance those kinds of tonnage necessarily in terms of direct combat performance.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2016 - 10:49 AM.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 16 July 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Well you do have to admit that an M1 Abrams battle tank will almost always out fight a Bradley Fighting Vehicle. You can't balance those kinds of tonnage necessarily in terms of direct combat performance.

If you're going to use weight as the argument, it's more efficient to destroy tanks by using missile-launcher infantry and/or aircraft rather than always relying on deploying a bigger tank to counter every enemy tank that shows up.

Besides that, the Bradley actually has roles that the Abrams can't fulfill such as transporting a few troops.

[Felicitatem Parco]

FupDup, on 16 July 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

If you're going to use weight as the argument, it's more efficient to destroy tanks by using missile-launcher infantry and/or aircraft rather than always relying on deploying a bigger tank to counter every enemy tank that shows up.

Besides that, the Bradley actually has roles that the Abrams can't fulfill such as transporting a few troops.

Yeah I revised it to a CV90 to make more accurate comparison.

Honestly if you could field an army of Abrams Tanks against CV90's in equal numbers, guess which side would win.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 July 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Davegt27]

I see you guys argument

so we are talking in terms of how the present game plays out and how we would have the game play out

for me heavy Mechs are king because of the extra armor not the extra fire power

I wont even take a medium into FW because they don't pack enough armor


its just a rull of thumb

now if Russ or anyone else wants to change that they would have to make some major changes to the game


the game population is so low PGI cant change the game economy

that means all Mechs need to be close to the same (balance) so all your customers can buy
what they want and be some what happy